The future of Trainz

[srude]

Hello;

Periodically, the powers-that-be at trainz, publish the future of Trainz. All sorts of plans and goals are presented.

Then, comes, the crunch--a new version is released and guess what! The release has loads of stuff that dates back to ancient times!

Clearly, considering the cost of staff and resources at the corporate level, including the economic circumstances, has a major impact on how a product is produced.

Those who follow the evolution of the 2009, have discovered that there is a seperate site for those who wish to create assets for Trainz. This means that the corporate folks depend on the good graces of private individuals to produce items that were once created by staff professionals. Moreover, the process of creating assets has gotten a lot more complicated. It takes much longer to produce high quality items that utilize normal maps, texture baking and other processess. Clearly, there aren't enough people out there who want to spend the time and effort to produce models within the current environment.

Moreover, Trainz doesn't support any graphics program but what they use in their factory. Why? They could do a lot to enhance the capability of Blender and 3DCanvas, to make them more Trainz friendly.

How about bringing back Trainz own Paint Shed program and really give it some creative horsepower?

I suspect that the Trainz outfit is contractually beholden to 3DSmax, which prohibits them from supporting any other program. That is a shame because how many of us can afford $3000.00 U.S.

As it stands, we are dependent on all those dedicated individuals out there who have the time and the dedication to produce assets. In our current, instant gratification world, few want to deal with making models.

Myself, I make models for two reasons--one, to have what I exactly want on my routes and the right brag that nothing on my routes belongs to anyone else. My trees may not look professional but in my world, that doesn't matter because I'm more interested in action than the artwork.

So, for what it is worth, that is my opinion.

Feel free to make your own contribution.

Cordially,

srude

 

[paulzmay]

I'm not sure that Auran have produced a lot of content since the very first releases. The 'new' content in TRS04 and TRS06 was mostly 3rd party content IIRC. I think the Harlem Line and TS2010 actually have more new Auran content than either of those versions (look at the buildings in the tutorial route in TS2010).

For content creation, there are a number of creators using Blender, which does support all of the new modelling techniques, and has suitable exporter arrangements.

Personally I think there's still room for content made with GMax, albeit using higher resolution textures and greater mesh detail. This is the path I've been following with my creations...

Paul

 

[WindWalkr]

Periodically, the powers-that-be at trainz, publish the future of Trainz. All sorts of plans and goals are presented.

Then, comes, the crunch--a new version is released and guess what! The release has loads of stuff that dates back to ancient times!

Auran has become very much a platform company. We're generally not in the business of creating content any more - there are certainly specific exceptions (the TS2009 SD40 springs to mind, but there are many other individual examples) where we have built new content in order to pave the way, but we're certainly not in a position to make all the content ourselves, and we've got no illusions about that.

Clearly, there aren't enough people out there who want to spend the time and effort to produce models within the current environment.

We could certainly wish that there were more, but overall I'd say that we've got quite a few people releasing quality content- some payware and some freeware.

Moreover, Trainz doesn't support any graphics program but what they use in their factory. Why? They could do a lot to enhance the capability of Blender and 3DCanvas, to make them more Trainz friendly.

Cost, mainly. There is a third-party Blender exporter which I understand works quite well, and this effort is partly supported by Auran (in terms of technology assistance; we're not contributing any money.)

How about bringing back Trainz own Paint Shed program and really give it some creative horsepower?

And how do you propose that we fund it? Just a ballpark guess, we'd need to guarantee $100k income from the project to make such an effort worthwhile.

I suspect that the Trainz outfit is contractually beholden to 3DSmax, which prohibits them from supporting any other program.

Nope. It's just a cost vs. benefit question. We don't charge for exporters, so we'd have to see a significant increase in Trainz sales to make this effort worthwhile. It's not a massive expense to build a new exporter, but it's also not so trivial that we can simply eat the cost in our general running expenses.


kind regards,

chris

 

[gfisher]

Making the requirements harder and more expensive (3dsmax) does not help in this regard. And now you are going to ban all the 2.4 and 2.6 creators from participating. Good luck, as you will need it.

 

[thepeartree]

What upsets me a bit, being a noob with Trainz, is that the newer versions aren't backward compatible in terms of content. That seems a bit daft. At the very least, include a converter external program to do the job. And all the static about incorrect and/or missing assets...! If they're still going to sell the older programs, then the least they can do is support them properly.

 

[paulhobbs]

Making the requirements harder and more expensive (3dsmax) does not help in this regard. And now you are going to ban all the 2.4 and 2.6 creators from participating. Good luck, as you will need it.

It's not harder and you don't have to use Max.

What upsets me a bit, being a noob with Trainz, is that the newer versions aren't backward compatible in terms of content. That seems a bit daft. At the very least, include a converter external program to do the job. And all the static about incorrect and/or missing assets...! If they're still going to sell the older programs, then the least they can do is support them properly.

The new versions are backwards compatible with correctly created content - the fact is though that a lot of stuff wasn't created correctly either due to missing information or a lack of understanding about what is in the CCGs.

Paul

 

[skidmark22]

The new versions are backwards compatible with correctly created content - the fact is though that a lot of stuff wasn't created correctly either due to missing information or a lack of understanding about what is in the CCGs.

Paul

I am not all that convinced that this is true. I have a lot of locos that show up red in 2009 but work that don't even show up in 2010. I haven't found any from WCT that works in 2010. I KNOW, I KNOW, all I have to do is edit them. Well sorry, I haven't the foggiest idea how to do that.

 

[mikeman]

That is why Ianwoodmore and others are pushing to get his programs implemented so everyone can repair their items. I was in the same boat a you and many others with thousands of items that didn't work in 09,10 and not the best idea of how to fix them. I then started asking questions of Ian and others and reading in the forums and now can say that I am down to only a couple thousand items still needing repair. Ian's new system will make that learning curve much easier.

 

[rlclegg]

virtual goods system

Auran has become very much a platform company. We're generally not in the business of creating content any more - there are certainly specific exceptions (the TS2009 SD40 springs to mind, but there are many other individual examples) where we have built new content in order to pave the way, but we're certainly not in a position to make all the content ourselves, and we've got no illusions about that.

...



chris

I suggest the company look into using a virtual goods platform where users can make easy micro-payments for content.

* Make a deal with Jointed Rail and others to revenue share by including some of their models in released versions of the product. Maybe make the engines only work on one specific demo session or something. You unlock it for use in the rest of the world.

* When you are in surveyor, you can place something to see it, but it won't load unless you unlock it with a micro-payment. Instant access, instant payment and rev share with Auran. (dang, i like that idea!! it's kind of a try before you buy.)

* Time restricted use - a route can be played in demo mode for 5 times. If you like it, unlock it with a quick payment. Including it in distribution is the key. People will see it, try it, love it and not have to get lost downloading all the specific remote assets. Get the guys from TrainzProRoutes engaged and update some killer content!! Include all their routes fully functional and operating and let people unlock them.

You lose a lot of people each time they have to click away from your product and environment to got get, install, and pay for other assets.

I'm in the SF area. If your CEO Tony Hilliam is coming to GDC, i'd be happy to meet with him to discuss driving this initiative.

Best,
-Robert

ps - I uploaded a video using 2010, Phil Skenes routes, and a lot of Jointed Rail content. It's a concept piece for a session pack to teach math using railroad operations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwlBVCd4tmk

let me know what you think!!

 

[WindWalkr]

I suggest the company look into using a virtual goods platform where users can make easy micro-payments for content.

This is always a tempting idea, but it's very tricky to do it in a way that makes everybody happy. It's certainly not something that we can simply implement one weekend. Perhaps in the longer run, perhaps not. Who knows?

Make a deal with Jointed Rail and others to revenue share by including some of their models in released versions of the product.

We already work with external creators to bring their quality content to Trainz. We're certainly available to talk to any creators who may be interested in including high-quality work in future Trainz products.

When you are in surveyor, you can place something to see it, but it won't load unless you unlock it with a micro-payment. Instant access, instant payment and rev share with Auran. (dang, i like that idea!! it's kind of a try before you buy.)

I remember Greg Lane writing a patent application for this concept, way back. Protecting the content is a fair bit of effort on the technical side, but it's doable.

Get the guys from TrainzProRoutes engaged and update some killer content!!

We've tried to contact them in the past. Unfortunately, we've never managed to get a dialog going with any of the relevant members. We'd still love to talk to them.

cheers,

chris

 

[Johnk]

Chris, maybe Auran needs to consider talking to several other people who spend a lot of time supporting their product for nix. That may also help with the serious credibility problem which seems to persist in these forums.

I for one feel as though I'm constantly beating my head against a wall.

 

[WindWalkr]

Chris, maybe Auran needs to consider talking to several other people who spend a lot of time supporting their product for nix.

Hi John,

Sorry to be dense, but that statement is a little ambiguous. Are you referring to content creators? If so, did you have specific people in mind? We'd love to hear from people who may be able to supply quality content.

chris

 

[Johnk]

Content creators would be a good start although I realise that's what TrainzDev is meant to be for.

I was actually thinking of people like the publishers of Trainz Magazine, other major Trainz web sites and myself. I run the Trainz Resources Directory and assist with the more recent Community Newsletter which will be published again in a week or so. The TRD will receive 30,000 unique visitors and almost half a million page hits in its first year. This is a significant audience and one that Auran is very foolish to overlook.

It's already a major resource that Auran could could use to reach people who never go near the forums. Half my visitors are from Google searches. In the old days, Auran supported my efforts including the WebRing, but these days they probably don't even know about the TRD and the webring or even care about them for that matter.

I do similar things for other publishers but they at least make contact with me and we try to work together. I can't contact Auran because I wouldn't have a clue who runs the show any more. Vulcan gave me a few suggestions but even he was unable to give me a specific name.

Trainz Magazine has been going for over a year, but Auran also doesn't seem to realize the opportunities there. A simple editorial, a letter from the boss, or even an ad which TM would probably run for nothing is one way to break what seems to be deliberate "contact avoidance".

Like Trainz Magazine and a dozen web sites out there, I'm here to help. Unnfortunately help is something Auran doesn't seem to want.

An Auran liasion officer would be a great start.

 

[WindWalkr]

Like Trainz Magazine and a dozen web sites out there, I'm here to help. Unnfortunately help is something Auran doesn't seem to want.

Given that you've never contacted us about it (that I'm aware of, anyway) it's hardly surprising that you haven't heard anything from us. You'd be surprised at how much traffic we see, so for the most part picking partners based on number of hits is fairly meaningless to us.

That's not to say that we have no interest in a partnership. As with any partnership, the question is what we can offer you and what you can offer us. We need to be a little bit careful about where we throw our "support", in case the partner's direction doesn't align to ours. At the same time, any potential partner should be careful to maintain their journalistic integrity.

If you or anyone has something that you'd like to discuss, feel free to contact us at trainzdev@auran.com - the worst that can happen is that we say no.

Just as some personal constructive criticism on the sites you mention- the Trainz Resource Directory and the magazine/newsletter downloads look interesting. Unfortunately the 'trainz magazine' site linked from the resource directory seems to be a bit of a mess, on my computer at least. The content seems to be all over the place, and the only meaningful thing on the page seems to be a Flash object. I run with Flash disabled, and maybe that makes me a minority, but the result is that there's nothing of interest on the page. If I'd not gone hunting around the resource directory site after your comments and found the download links, I would have dismissed the magazine entirely - there's no way I'd subscribe to something sight unseen.

kind regards,

chris

 

[airtime]

Hello;

How about bringing back Trainz own Paint Shed program and really give it some creative horsepower?

Feel free to make your own contribution.

Cordially,

srude

I agree with your above statement, for the reason off, if you reskin someone elses content, your then stepping on the content creators toes and breaching copyright, now it's all well and good to ask for permission, but if you can't get permission, then your stuffed and you can't do the reskin, and unfortunatly not everyone is a computer genious, so someone who can create realistic paintshed content, comes across blender or gmax, they might just give up, as it's too much for them to understand.

I believe there is a gap in the market for this product, I know Railworks are looking into something very similar in the near future, and it will be a seperate add on pack to Railworks, in which you have to pay for, this in turn creates more money for the company and gives those who want to reskin items the chance to do so. In my opinion, if the content is good, then I would buy it.

As for the future of Auran, I have an idea...

How about creating add on route packs to trainz 2010, similar to the Settle and Carlisle pack for Trainz 2009, so instead of bringing out Trainz 2012, you release packs like... London to Brighton line, which will include the entire route in three different years 1960's, 1980's and today, along with the route, you also get the rolling stock and engines that ran along the route, in them years.

For American users, you could release the Acela Express route, and add all the rolling stock, and even create branchline workings to the pack.

And for German users, The I.C.E express line, which features the main ICE route in germany, there are many routes you can make as add on packs, including...

The Eurostar link, - London to Paris / Brussels
Liverpool to Manchester line, - the very first passenger service in the UK
Glasgow to Falkirk, - origionally made by Vern, who maybe willing, if asked nicely to re-create this route and possibly extend it.

Who would make these routes I hear you cry, you would open up a competition, the winner would win a First class ticket for life, A DVD copy of the route and an Auran/neverfail tshirt. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If you want judges, then put it out to the forum members, as a thank you to the judges, they get there name mentioned on the DVD release and a first glance of the new route, they may even notice things that may have been missed or faults in the route.

This is just my idea, but a great way to get the community involved and keep costs low.

Joe Airtime

 

[WindWalkr]

Who would make these routes I hear you cry, you would open up a competition, the winner would win a First class ticket for life, A DVD copy of the route and an Auran/neverfail tshirt. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

It's good to see people thinking of alternatives, but I think you may be vastly underestimating the amount of time and effort that goes into a large high-quality route.

kind regards,

chris

 

[Red_TVRM]

I’d suggest getting/keeping one version until it is perfect. (I’ve 09 and can’t get it to patch and have tried everything I could fine on it)

I like the add on route idea’s as well. Many MS platforms have survived for a long time using add on content from 3rd party folks.

If Auran did this with a real view of improving then it would go a long way.

Also don’t cut off DLS access for all your older versions, it can’t hurt you that bad to keep allowing access.

 

[xinrobbie]

How about creating add on route packs to trainz 2010, similar to the Settle and Carlisle pack for Trainz 2009, so instead of bringing out Trainz 2012, you release packs like... London to Brighton line, which will include the entire route in three different years 1960's, 1980's and today, along with the route, you also get the rolling stock and engines that ran along the route, in them years.

That is what I have been trying to say. And without getting into another argument or duplicating a thread. Pay for service packs and/or micropayments is a much better idea than releasing the same product over and over again.

There is just not enough improvement to justify Trainz being released as a brand new product year in year out.

And given how quickly RailWorks is developing now, Auran are under a lot more pressure.

 

[meridious]

We've tried to contact them in the past. Unfortunately, we've never managed to get a dialog going with any of the relevant members. We'd still love to talk to them.

So I guess you're saying I'm irrelevant. LOL Seriously though, the only contact that I know of was with Rob. What we were talking about never made it to fruition.
There aren't many of the TPR members that come here anymore but we aren't against talking. Feel free to e-mail me at any time.

 

[WindWalkr]

So I guess you're saying I'm irrelevant. LOL Seriously though, the only contact that I know of was with Rob. What we were talking about never made it to fruition.
There aren't many of the TPR members that come here anymore but we aren't against talking. Feel free to e-mail me at any time.

I don't know who was contacted specifically. We sent a few emails, asking about possible routes and partnerships, and we were directed to speak to a specific person responsible for the routes - who we unfortunately never could get a reply from.

I don't have your email address, but you're more than welcome to email trainzdev@auran.com - we'd love to chat.

chris