Surveyor 2.0 feedback thread

@Tony & PWare: ....
Didn't even know my post got moved here, no one bothered to post a courtesy referral in the originating thread.

Since the spontaneous layer-changing discussion was assigning fault to Surveyor Classic and not 2.0, I am following up that topic in the originating thread.
 
You are a trainz vet reading your avatar so I scratch my head how on earth you could come with such an oversimplified example.

Yet that is all the detail you will see in some of the first posts from users reporting a problem. From the many years I spent in IT support where I worked, that is also all the information I would sometimes get in a panicked phone call from a work colleague.

First of all My routes are always tested on my and n3v side before making it past QA.

I have no doubt about that and I am not criticising your testing or N3V's QA people. But all that testing will be based on some assumptions such as the user has the right version of Trainz, they have hardware and an OS that meets the minimum specs, that they are not using 3rd party assets with scripts that are causing major problems, etc, etc. Can you give a guarantee that all the possible causes of problems have been eliminated in your testing? Can you give a guarantee that every user who has a problem with one of your routes will be fully articulate, clear and concise in describing the problem and what they have done to check that it is real and can be reproduced?

If the return question is we cannot fix it as long we the user not provide hard evidence step by step report nothing will happen.

The user who reported the problem is often the best one to do the basic testing to narrow down the cause of a problem. No-one else may have the same hardware and software setup and assets installed. N3V do not have the staff, time or resources to do all the forensic work based on minimal information. See my thread at https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?163783 on how I did the detective work to provide N3V QA with the information that they need to solve a problem.

Happy to close this discussion.
 
Layers

this happened just a few minutes ago. I mean hide unhide locked layers in order to click/pick a track at a certain place.
This works on and off and it helps to hide unhide in my case layer road or layer DEM board......:eek:

layers etc.jpg

I was cleaning up repairing layers which had received tracks and track objects which supposed to be on layer track.
When doing repair/cha layer back to track from eg roads layer i have to identify/click/pick the piece of track double click to change a set of them.. (see also my post #57 happened here again)
Many times I cannot identify a piece of track like it is blocked somewhere. lock layer... but even it is on layer track it not want to be identified....
So i do the trick with unhide one by one the hidden layers and try to click the track. Lot of work but it works somehow.
NOW this happened 30 min ago while unhiding a layer here named light antenna layer a consist pops up out of the blue sky.
I can feel the replies coming I did something wrong again if so pls save your's and my time this is happening and see for yourself in the fuzzy picture. Uploading abetter picture 3 MB the forum replied upload failed 10 times tried and rebooteed and made a smller size 930KB but no details readable.
 
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The consist appeared when you unhid a layer. This is expected if the consist is in that layer, or perhaps if it is on a track in that layer (since the train cannot appear without the track being visible).

If you select the consist, check which layer it is on. Then select the track it is on a see which layer it is on.

if neither the track nor the train are in the hidden layer, then there may be a bug. It may also be that something else you did that was not mentioned in your comments above contributed to the confusion.
 
one more time:


read what I try say in my todays best english.

1 I have to play with the layers which are ALL locked only the track I am working on is not.

2 ALL layers are hide except the track layer I am working on.

3 There is a bug that track splines and probably other splines are affected too are not accessible with the mouse hover,click,pick.
Sometimes it is enough to click the next track piece pixel at that spline end but mjost times not.

4 When I do unhide going thru my layers list on the screen S20 left side and unhide one by one until tha track pieces are accessible.

5 2 layers like my roads,building layer and my DEM board layer (when unhide) are the one's that most time open the access to click a track piece that I could not before(on the track layer). Unhide likely unlock the hide and lock of the track on layer track!!!!

6 The consist you saw was something in a special session I use to create consists on a special session layer called alyth yard consists. So how this ends up on the Lights and Antenna's layer without my assistance is anybody's guess perhaps?

7 As said on my post #83 the layer Light and antenna's the name by itself suggest it is not a track layer and used very seldom but needed to keep that way! NO consists NO track or track assets are put there by me on purpose or by accident!

I CANNOT be more clear and this is it for the moment.

Your comment something (again) I did and was (I would say Trainz did and I could not mention until after it happen) not mentioned in post #83 contributed to the confusion is a rather strange comment and not feels constructive, so be it.
I tend to say wake up trainz layer system has a problem wether you like it or not.
 
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Had a closer look at the rulers. Made a small route with a set of rulers in TANE 105786. Some on the route layer others on a rulers layer I created in the route .
In TRS22, I have to activate the classic surveyor to work with the rulers (add, move or delete). In surveyor 2.0, the layer visibility will hide them but when the rulers are visible they cannot be affected.

So if an imported route contains any classic rulers, just drop down to classic Surveyor to work with them. The new rulers are also available in surveyor 2.0 so if a classic ruler needs to stay, it can easily be duplicated with the new version.
 
Would it be possible, after so many years, to eliminate the surrounding sounds of the rails clicking inside the cab or wagon? The click between the rails is not real and it is very sad to listen all the way when nowadays you have practically nothing wrong in the cabin than an electric motor. Otherwise, I would have two more requests: To create an alignment icon for the ground with tracks, it's more efficient and faster than clicking on the track and constantly selecting text. And the last request for more realistic weather, I mean snow pads, rain and preferably Ultra 3D clouds, which also use other games that could be adjusted according to height, in order to create a realistic representation of mountains and clouds in the landscape.
 
Would it be possible, after so many years, to eliminate the surrounding sounds of the rails clicking inside the cab or wagon? The click between the rails is not real and it is very sad to listen all the way when nowadays you have practically nothing wrong in the cabin than an electric motor.

I would only support that if it was an option, perhaps built into vehicles that had sealed windows and sound insulation. Older heritage or period vehicles with open windows, including the loco, would have the "clickerty-clack" sound of the wheels on the rails as an expected sound effect and it would generate a lot of protests if that was removed.

My opinion.
 
Hello! I've just had the first opportunity to try out the new Surveyor 2.0 - it's a real game-changer, even if it requires re-learning certain habits :). This is just a fresh glimpse after checking out different things, but I hope you will find it useful.

Great things

I really like the new multi-selection and highlighting of selected objects. It would make adjustments of the whole scenery crazy simple. I remember moving a part of a station in TRS2019 because of miscalculation. It had to be done by careful copy-pasting without much visual guidance. Here it looks like a piece of cake. I can even freely rotate the scenery, if e.g. I want the station to point 5 degrees to the west. Big "thank you" for that! Another great thing is the Anchor. I discovered that I can move e.g. a single track perpendicular or in parallel to its current orientation which was previously not possible. One had to move individual track points, and use additional scenery objects as templates.

Independent "placement", "free move" and "fine adjustment" tools: I find it useful, because in TRS2019 it was hard to say what would happen if I place a new spline node in a dense scenery. However, it requires some time to adapt. Right now I find it hard to switch between those modes. Accessible keyboard shortcuts would be welcome.

To improve

I also see one thing to improve: the pain of rotating objects. In TRS2019, I have to spend a massive amount of time, carefully rotating individual objects to match the general direction of the scenery. For example, let's imagine that I model a part of town. I lay the streets, and I want to place houses, lamps, etc. The orientation of the street gives me the angle - let's say - 130.5 degrees. The only option in TRS2019 is placing all objects, and then rotate each single of them carefully to 130.5 degrees. Imagine doing this for e.g. 60 houses and 130 street lamps. When I read about Surveyor 2.0 for the first time, I hoped that it will make it much easier, and well... new tools help a bit, and probably more by coincidence rather than intentional wish to improve this functionality. For now I see only the following options:

* build everything at 0 degree rotation, and then rotate the entire scenery - possible, but you have to have extra free space, and you don't see how things match the rest of the scenery until you finish,
* make one object, select it, copy plenty of times, then move everything to the intended position. Yes, copy-pasting now works well and makes it possible, but still - you have to make all objects elsewhere and then move them carefully one by one. It is much less time-consuming than the "old" way, but still.

I feel this is not the way how it should work. My ideas for improvements:

* Placement Tool: we have the entire window "Tool options" occupying the screen, but all options are greyed out. Options "Height", "Angle", "Rotation" could be active and taken into account by this tool. I could then enter the angle 130.5 and make all new objects with this angle, or place all objects at certain height above the ground.
* Multi-select: currently, rotation of multiple objects rotates the entire selected fragment. But what about the second anchor option which would rotate individual objects by the same angle? Then I could place all objects, and then rotate all of them at once.

Generally, the privileged place of 0-degree rotation should be abandoned. It should be still a default value, but only until you reconfigure it to your current needs.

Asset list - please add some contextual tooltips for different elements, and consider changing the placement of one of them. At the first sight, I thought that displaying asset images is the only way of viewing the asset list (and I was about to put a huge explanation here why having a named asset list is an absolute must-have). It turned out that the picture icon next to the search box switches the asset viewing mode from image-based to name-based. But I discovered it by accident. There is no tooltip for it, and for me neither the symbol nor its current placement give a hint what it does. Also, the asset name in image-viewing mode is displayed in a completely different place - again, at the first sight I though that the asset name is not displayed at all, until I noticed that the window title changes. Over here, a tooltip on mouse hover with the asset name would be also great.

Missing things

* In Surveyor 2.0 it was also possible to rotate ground textures while drawing. I see that the keyboard shortcuts are still listed in settings, but they don't work anymore. I used it for drawing large grass areas. Keeping all ground rotated in the same direction creates the unnatural "grid" effect, even with PBR textures, and I'd like to avoid it on my maps.
* Regarding circles at spline/track nodes. I also think that it would be good to have them back as an option. They introduce a lot of visual mess when you don't need them, but at the same time they are very useful when you want e.g. to align your tracks, and you don't want to spend time on adding a temporary template scenery object.

* "Straighten track/spline" - the current way looks more time-consuming than the old way of selecting "Straighten" and clicking on objects. It was very useful for larger stations. Is it possible to bring the old way back for this particular option?

New ideas

Regarding rulers and templates, I have an idea for another type of ruler. Among Polish add-ons, there is a useful scenery object: a configurable template for making realistic track curves. You entered the desired curve radius (e.g. R800 m) and the degree, and the template showed where the track nodes should be positioned. Unfortunately, in TRS2019 SP3 it became a bit broken due to issues with selecting it and moving around. How about making something similar and maintain it as a part of the core game?
 
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I, like many of us, have a rather extensive collection of locomotives and railcars, so I would like to see more sub-filters within the Trains filter, so we can filter out locomotives, tenders, rolling stock, as well as custom picklists of consists (similar to what we could do in TRS2009-10-12). Right now it's a pain to go through the list of trains, and the picklist doesn't really work very well with consists.
 
Greetings ZvxwvU. For your first post in these forums that is an amazingly well thought out and presented post.

Missing things

* In Surveyor 2.0 it was also possible to rotate ground textures while drawing. I see that the keyboard shortcuts are still listed in settings, but they don't work anymore. I used it for drawing large grass areas. Keeping all ground rotated in the same direction creates the unnatural "grid" effect, even with PBR textures, and I'd like to avoid it on my maps.
* Regarding circles at spline/track nodes. I also think that it would be good to have them back as an option. They introduce a lot of visual mess when you don't need them, but at the same time they are very useful when you want e.g. to align your tracks, and you don't want to spend time on adding a temporary template scenery object.

The keyboard shortcuts will be coming in a future (next???) beta update. They had not been forgotten, just postponed.

I agree with you about the missing spline circles. They can be a real nuisance when you don't need them but very useful when you do. The "tiny pixel" dots that have replaced them will be enlarged in a future (next???) beta update.
 
The more I play with the various parts of S20, the more I like what we're getting. A few of the keyboard shortcuts appear to have been activated: Ctrl-D will unselect multiple objects that have been lassoed by the marquee tool or the one object if selected directly. F9 will cycle through the three ground effects, textured, grid and transparent.

I agree that the spline junctions need an option to show the traditional circles or something bigger than the small black boxes. At least the ability to toggle back and forth between the classic Surveyor and the new one is available for those times you need to see those circles until a better fix is implemented.
 
Trying to pick out rolling stock and locos could be easier. Pretty pictures are pretty but without the full name it makes it difficult to see which item is which.

Cheerio John
 
You could turn on the file names. Beside the Search box is a square icon with what looks like a mountain and sun. That toggles the pictures and names.
 
Martin I agree that the spline point circle should be an option but pls keep the pixel at it is less clutter blinding the target of eyeview.
The pixel is good for large screens like mine but on small monitors it is ants @ work.
Is there a way to select certain assets eg track marker for the entire route and change the layer or trigger radius in S20?? Now you can double click one and on a yard it is very handy it picks all and you can fiddle with them.
 
You could turn on the file names. Beside the Search box is a square icon with what looks like a mountain and sun. That toggles the pictures and names.


Sounds fine but now I've forgotten where to find the locos and rolling stock. It took a while the first time.

Cheerio John
 
Pasting scrapbook data.

This is a nifty tool indeed, but I have issues with it.

Why does the tool grab the ground and textures too?

I specifically went through the trouble of selecting a bunch of fir trees. When I pasted them down, the ground height and textures from the previous location also pasted as well.

Unless I'm missing something here, this needs to be fixed because these settings are selectable in the old marquee copy/paste utility in Surveyor 1.0 gave us that ability to select and paste what we wanted and not always everything.

Never mind, I found it.

I stumbled upon "Filters" and then found what I needed.

Filters is the incorrect word for this instance and "properties", or "settings" is more appropriate in this setting.
 
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