Some questions about TransDEM

[geophil]

The concept is different. I guess it's best to forget about TIGER when starting with TransDEM. I could explain all the differences in detail but this may be confusing at this stage in the learning curve.

In TransDEM you have three distinct types of geo data:

• the DEM,
• raster maps and orthophotos (bitmaps or images, but with geo coordinates),
• vector map data (with geo coordinates), any source, as long as TransDEM can read the file format.

For a US route I recommend USGS NED DEMs, USGS topo maps 1:24k via WMS and a few hand-drawn vector lines.

Tutorials would be "Muengsten" (Export to Trainz in the TransDEM Trainz manual, page 41), WMS Durango & Silverton (page 113 TransDEM main manual) and Map Tiles (page 130 TransDEM main manual).

 

[dricketts]

Thanks Phil.

I've been through your tutorials in the manual. My expectations of TransDEM might be skewed because of my experience with the MicroDEM/HOG method.

Will TransDEM produce different colored lines like the MicroDEM/HOG method on the Trainz Surveyor map? Lines that can me manually "traced" with track or road splines and filled in with water.

 

[mrscsi]

Thanks Phil.

I've been through your tutorials in the manual. My expectations of TransDEM might be skewed because of my experience with the MicroDEM/HOG method.

Will TransDEM produce different colored lines like the MicroDEM/HOG method on the Trainz Surveyor map? Lines that can me manually "traced" with track or road splines and filled in with water.

And then some...

What I do is get a 24k raster map and let it make that the ground texture, then I get orthophotos and google maps and use them as utm tiles under the surface so I can turn on wireframe mode and lay track or road accordingly.

Transdem will actually put assets on the map for you (water.track and road) but I tend to like to do it myself using the above method...

 

[dricketts]

And then some...

What I do is get a 24k raster map and let it make that the ground texture, then I get orthophotos and google maps and use them as utm tiles under the surface so I can turn on wireframe mode and lay track or road accordingly.

Transdem will actually put assets on the map for you (water.track and road) but I tend to like to do it myself using the above method...

So to paraphrase...

To lay splines, one could use the colored lines that TransDEM produces on the Trainz Surveyor map, the various aerial photos/maps available that TransDEM incorporates in the Trainz surveyor map, let TransDEM lay the splines automatically, or any combination of the above.

 

[mrscsi]

So to paraphrase...

To lay splines, one could use the colored lines that TransDEM produces on the Trainz Surveyor map, the various aerial photos/maps available that TransDEM incorporates in the Trainz surveyor map, let TransDEM lay the splines automatically, or any combination of the above.

Pretty close...

I don't want to sound negative (and god knows I probably am doing something wrong) but I haven't had transdem lay junctions very well. Roadways are ok but intersecting points are not always perfect.

The most important tool for me is the ability to create and import utm tiles, I can have one layer ortho photos and another google maps (I use trs2010) and switch between them on the fly in surveyor...

 

[mrscsi]

And while on the subject, most of the maps I create and have created while learning to use TransDem have been ones that have included pretty intricate yards and sidings. I went through a learning curve first using raster maps, then ortho photographs (thinking I could get all the definition and detail from an actual satellite map) to a combination of raster maps, ortho photographs and Google maps.

The Google maps actually provide quite good detail as to track layout. For example the Barstow yard which is an absolute nightmare is laid out in pretty good detail on a Google map at zoom level 17. It's easy to follow and just for giggles I laid out almost 90% of the Southside of the Barstow yard in about two hours one night.

I'm not God's gift to TransDem users (geophil will attest to that I'm sure) I'm one of these people that know enough to be dangerous, but I do know what works for me, and yes I went through the tutorials, but Gisa's videos answered a lot of questions that I had after reading the documentation. I would recommend going through the tutorials and watching the videos.

For me it's been a learning experience that I have rather enjoyed. I guess I'm one of the strange folks that actually get a kick out of learning what program can do and watching it work as intended. There are quite a few out there that have absolutely no patience or get frustrated quite easily, but I suspect if you've been working with hog you have a pretty high tolerance when it comes to frustration...:hehe:

I've found myself since getting TransDem, starting many projects, but I've yet to actually complete one except for track. And that's really not the issue, I've got a pretty good collection now of DEMs, raster maps, ortho photos and map tiles as well as routes. I find myself going back a few times and refining the process and learning a little bit more in the process.

 

[dricketts]

Thanks for the feedback mrscsi,

I think I'm still a little confused because I'm looking through the lens of the MicroDEM/HOG process. This process would use "TIGER" data to paint three different colored lines on a blank map in surveyor. Light blue = track, red = roads, dark blue = water. Then one would start laying the appropriate track or road splines. A fairly elementary concept.

Does TransDEM do anything like this if I don't want to use the maps or satellite images as objects on my surveyor map?

 

[mrscsi]

Thanks for the feedback mrscsi,

I think I'm still a little confused because I'm looking through the lens of the MicroDEM/HOG process. This process would use "TIGER" data to paint three different colored lines on a blank map in surveyor. Light blue = track, red = roads, dark blue = water. Then one would start laying the appropriate track or road splines. A fairly elementary concept.

Does TransDEM do anything like this if I don't want to use the maps or satellite images as objects on my surveyor map?

Short answer would be yes. It will draw a line for the route data but it will be one color I think.

The problem as I see it with using hog or raster maps in transdem as the sole source of track laying is resolution...

I can get great rasters that are really readable at full pullback in surveyor, but when you have to zoom in to do detail work you lose all resolution...

I am getting a map ready now and will upload some screenshots that can explain this better...

Check back in about a half hour

 

[dricketts]

Sorry I just replied to your post on the TransDEM forum. I just realized that was you.

Here's your post and my reply:

I've been using The National Map Seamless Server at http://seamless.usgs.gov/ and downloading geotiffs. Server seems to have gone down this last weekend and today it shows a long wait for data (since today is a federal holiday they probably haven't solved this weekends issue yet) Raster and Ortho data I get from within TranzDem. Vecter data for US rail and road can be had from TIGER at http://arcdata.esri.com/data/tiger2000/tiger_download.cfm and from the National Transportation Atlas Database at http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_atlas_database/2010/

me:
I've read both manuals and went through Gisa's tutorials.

How do you import the Tiger data into Transdem? I'm assuming once the TIGER data is in Transdem it will paint route lines on the Trainz surveyor map to base where you lay the object splines.

 

[mrscsi]

Screen shots that can explain better

Ok I get pretty good resolution using the 24k raster as a texture. The blue line is the route line.

As this one shows it is zoomed out all the way and you can see how laying track will be.

As I mentioned earlier zooming in really distorts resolution...

Here I have gone to wire frame mode to expose the google maps that are captured at 17 zoom and imported as utm tiles. The track is extremely clear and easy to follow...

This shows a direct overhead shot and you can see how easy it is to lay track along the route lines.

Zoomed in you lose some resolution but not near as bad as the raster when used as a texture.

Zoomed back out and you can see the detail google maps gives for sidings and yards...

I just couldn't imagine laying track any other way...

I bring all those elements together in TransDem and it spits it out as a route and utms and I import it all into cmp and it's all there... Having "dabbled" with the dls utm method and hog I can assure you this is easier and faster...

 

[mrscsi]

Sorry I just replied to your post on the TransDEM forum. I just realized that was you.

Here's your post and my reply:

I've been using The National Map Seamless Server at http://seamless.usgs.gov/ and downloading geotiffs. Server seems to have gone down this last weekend and today it shows a long wait for data (since today is a federal holiday they probably haven't solved this weekends issue yet) Raster and Ortho data I get from within TranzDem. Vecter data for US rail and road can be had from TIGER at http://arcdata.esri.com/data/tiger2000/tiger_download.cfm and from the National Transportation Atlas Database at http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_atlas_database/2010/

me:
I've read both manuals and went through Gisa's tutorials.

How do you import the Tiger data into Transdem? I'm assuming once the TIGER data is in Transdem it will paint route lines on the Trainz surveyor map to base where you lay the object splines.

When I get "tiger" data from their site it is a .shp file and I just click "route/open route then select .shp files at the bottom right of the dialog box and the shape file shows up and I load it.

You can do that for roads and waterways as well BUT if you try to use it to pull rasters or maptiles from the net along those routes they are ALWAYS going to give you "route too complex" so I have used them as a guide and just traced over them to get a simple route to pull maps and rasters from.

But to answer your question I just use tiger data for SOME routes as a "guide" only to get an idea. Once I get the rasters and maptiles I use google maps to lay track, roads and waterways...

 

[mrscsi]

The main vector file I use is railroad_USGS_2005 I can't remember where I got it but it covers all the US.

Nice thing about it is it is one file, places a route down on EVERY dem I have ever tried it on, and while not perfect or highly detailed as some data it is a "starting" point that I can use to trace a simple route using transdem and pull the rasters and tilemaps along a basic route and then get detailed in surveyor using the google maps...

 

[dricketts]

I hope I come to agree with you. I'm perplexed more than ever now. The MicroDEM/HOG process seems much less complex at this point.

I need to take one step at a time. I have my DEM map in TransDEM. Now I want to add TIGER data from here: http://arcdata.esri.com/data/tiger2000/tiger_statelayer.cfm?sfips=29
How do I add the TIGER data? Do I point TransDEM to the .shp files only after they are unzipped from the ESRI website?

I'm not concerned about raster maps at this point. I'll try to tackle that later.

 

[mrscsi]

I hope I come to agree with you. I'm perplexed more than ever now. The MicroDEM/HOG process seems much less complex at this point.

I need to take one step at a time. I have my DEM map in TransDEM. Now I want to add TIGER data from here: http://arcdata.esri.com/data/tiger2000/tiger_statelayer.cfm?sfips=29
How do I add the TIGER data? Do I point TransDEM to the .shp files only after they are unzipped from the ESRI website?

I'm not concerned about raster maps at this point. I'll try to tackle that later.

Yes, unzip the file into a directory and open the dem in transdem then open route and see the following pic

I do much better with pictures than I do "splainin" :hehe:

 

[dricketts]

I've tried several times and I keep getting this:

 

[mrscsi]

I've tried several times and I keep getting this:

Hmmm

Just for giggles download this one and try it on your dem...

http://ryomag.com/td/railroad_USGS_2005.zip

 

[dricketts]

I get the same error with your file.

 

[mrscsi]

I get the same error with your file.

Ok you've graduated to Dr Phil land

There appears to be something amiss with your installation of transdem and/or something beyond my expertise...

I would open a thread on the transdem forum under support and he usually gets to them quickly...

Sorry I couldn't do more

 

[mrscsi]

I get the same error with your file.

I just sent you a PM

 

[dricketts]

I do appreciate all your help.

Unfortunately I'm pretty disappointed so far with TransDEM. Maybe I had the wrong expectations. I thought the learning curve was not supposed to be as steep as the MicroDEM/HOG process but I'm not sure. I could have created several DEM maps in surveyor with MicroDEM/HOG during the time I've spent on TransDEM.

I've read both manuals front to back and the more I play with the software the more perplexed I become.