So What's next for Non-Subscription TRS19 Users?

[pware]

Tony's original comment about subscribing to Trainz Plus ...

... effectively pre-paying for TRS20xx features, and supporting us in getting those features developed, tested and released.

... may have opened up a new issue.

Here is the question. If I get a Trainz Plus subscription does that mean when TRS202x comes out do I get the full retail version?

Perhaps Tony's words have been misinterpreted. I would read his statement in the same light as ...

"Some of the new features in TANE have also been used in TRS19 so purchasing TANE has supported the development of TRS19"

...not as the statement ...

"If you bought TANE you should get a copy of TRS19 for free".

When TRS19 came out there were some posters who insisted that all TANE owners should get a free upgrade.

However, the comment ...

Considering that your Trainz Plus members are paying for the development of your software, I think it would be prudent for subscribers to unlock the latest version of Trainz to keep after paying into the program after a pre-determined amount of months.

It only makes sense to reward your subscribers who are paying for the devlopment with a copy every one in a while. You still end up with the same or more money compared to someone buying it at retail.

... may have merit but I have no knowledge of the economics of such an option. Perhaps a seamless transition from paying the Trainz Plus subscription to paying the TRS20xx subscription with no price increase may be a more feasible option?

Just thinking out loud (and I promise not to use the term Mud anymore)

 

[robd]

...Before it is asked, we don't yet have a planned release date for Trainz 20xx.

Oh No! Not again! More patches, more fixing of assets, more grief!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkGZmmrLFAU&list=RDAkGZmmrLFAU&start_radio=1&t=0

I look forward to it - if I live that long and if I can afford it!

Rob.

 

[ekeenan]

I would have thought the subscription would fund the entire TRS19 project. Now, I am sure part of the subscription was used for this purpose, but to have a special version with special features for subscribers that will only be seen in the next regular version tells me resources in a small company were split(This is my opinion of course). Would TRS19 be that much better if one of those features were included? Will the way the current subscription process is being used help smooth out the design/coding stage of the next version?

When it comes to cash flow, I purchased the World Edition. I am guessing the price of this was for the included routes?

 

[Swordfish]

I think the subscription with Trainz is the same thing as the subscription of MS Office 365: You will always get the newest stable version. If you will finish the subscription, you have no longer access to the program. If you want to use it furthermore, you have to buy the latest released stable version.

Just my two cents.

Regards

Swordfish

 

[pware]

I Just my two cents.

I have exactly the same two cents.

 

[reijmerink]

My thoughts exactly, although i am not a member paying a montly fee, since i don't need more montly payments with my salary I think for a really complicated piece of software, this is a nice way to generate the development money. After all we still have a choice in this matter. I just have the world version, and it's very stable so far for my needs. (although i have regular spontaneous ctd's when i am doing nothing special) I can live with that. I am still a fan since 2004, and use it on a regular basis. Trs 2019 is my favorite builder ! and the update should come when finished... to many bad memories from the Tane updates. Regards for the Trainz team!

 

[euromodeller]

Getting back on topic and away from memberships.....

So the standard non-sub. version purchasers are getting SP1 'soon', that's very welcome, thank you !

I don't suppose that N3V might give us a hint of what's been improved, no tech explanation, just an outline please.

Most of the big selling points to me don't live up to the original hype..

1, PBR ground (even without textures) looks like sliding slime on any embankment next to a railway as you move along in driver mode, very unrealistic.

2, Turf FX has an unfriendly interface with geekspeak on it. Needs replacing with something that non-geeks can use, e.g, thin grass, tall grass, density etc on sliders.

3, Setting a route for a driver is clunky and time consuming, needs to revert to the TANE method, although I like the info interface at the bottom of the screen.


Thanks to all who have contributed here, a very interesting debate it has been!

 

[Tony_Hilliam]

What's been improved - we'll get full list together when we have some time.

PBR - swings and roundabouts. Look fantastic everywhere but the sharp angles. Turning them off is an option.

Effects tools - updates already well underway and most likely coming Q4 for Trainz Plus members

Setting a route - I assume you mean the dropdown lists of industries for navigate to versus the mutli-tier approach used previously? Multi-tier has limitations (you can't list more than 20 or so items per tier and 1000 or so items total), and takes up more screen space. The dropdown lists removes those limitations, allows you to filter immediately to your desired destination, eliminates timeout concerns and adds a couple of extra clicks (but replaces a few mouse movements).

If you mean something else, please explain.

 

[dangavel]

What's been improved - we'll get full list together when we have some time.

PBR - swings and roundabouts. Look fantastic everywhere but the sharp angles. Turning them off is an option.

Effects tools - updates already well underway and most likely coming Q4 for Trainz Plus members

Setting a route - I assume you mean the dropdown lists of industries for navigate to versus the mutli-tier approach used previously? Multi-tier has limitations (you can't list more than 20 or so items per tier and 1000 or so items total), and takes up more screen space. The dropdown lists removes those limitations, allows you to filter immediately to your desired destination, eliminates timeout concerns and adds a couple of extra clicks (but replaces a few mouse movements).

If you mean something else, please explain.

I bought 2019 (with no subscription) just to support NV3 , I hardly use it and given Macs with decent graphic cards are now all AMD ( my gtx 680 with 2 gb vram is vastly under powered using TANE ,and with my 8gb RX580 i I don't get most of the "benefits" ( or not ) of Turf FX etc.
However, I am still happy to support the company, but as far as i can see there's not a lot of benefit buying 2019 for current Mac users and even if you support metal in an update , that will not ( i presume ) allow a mac user to use any of the nvidia features. I really cant see how you can continue to support new Mac releases in the future unless you offer something that you can build in to metal that will rival features that are available to PC users.

 

[brucem56]

Responding here to the OP and a few other points...

So, what's in store for us poor-relations that dished out a lot of money for the non-subscription version?
Are we going to get any improvements to the 'game' that we don't have to pay for ?

The history of Trainz has been that every 1-3 years a new version is released that is sold on the store. Historically we've released a number of Hotfixes (small updates fixing critical bugs) and Service Packs (larger updates primarily focused on bug fixing). This plan hasn't changed.

The Service Pack referred to in the newsletter is for TRS19 owners. This includes bug fixes but not the new Trainz Plus features.

As pware eloquently put it:
"So what if it has been almost a year and still no SP1 for TRS19? That indicates that they finally got the release of a new Trainz product (almost) right - it is not perfect and it has faults but nothing major like the original release of TANE."

This is one reason things are taking longer to release in this cycle of development. We're not rushing things out the door. We're making sure that they are ready for release.

We have stated that we have no plans to eliminate the option to purchase Trainz. Nothing has changed in that regard.

The new features developed that are available to Trainz Plus users have been funded in part by their subscriptions. Purchasers will need to wait and buy the new version that includes the new features. i.e. Improvements and new features that cost money to develop won't be given away.

We've added a new option for those who don't see value in DLC content to access Trainz Plus on it's own.

The simple fact is that we are a business addressing a niche market. Spending $2-3 a week to support that business and enable us to become a bigger, better business capable of adding more features more quickly to Trainz, and improving our overall quality, is apparently a proposition many of you reject.

That's the bit I find hard to figure out. Everyone makes a decision on how to spend $1+ a day on non-essential items. We're talking about 26 cents a day to take up the Trainz Plus option (which includes an FCT that many people do currently see value in).

If you're happy waiting a few years for updates, then that's fine. If you want updates sooner, then there is an option available for you to access those updates. The choice is yours.


P.S. I'm keeping DLC out of this discussion for now, but just noting that the rewards program is more about product discounts than content creators. Cayden - perhaps move your most to a new thread as it is worthy of separate discussion.

If I'm happy to wait a few years that's fine, if I want updates sooner, then I have to pay more. It's my choice.

You forgot to mention choice #3 - that's the one where I stop supporting N3V.

When support for TANE stops, my support for N3V does also. It's ridiculous to hold back bug fixes for a couple of years because we didn't buy into the subscription service.

How's that working out for you - seeing customers leave? Does that help the bottom line as you hoped it would?

And yes, I actually did try to buy a subscription, however no credit card, no purchase. Don't know why I can purchase anything else in the Trainz Store using my bank card, but not a subscription.

So I don't even have a choice to purchase if I did want to.

Thank you N3V.

 

[KenGreen]

I found this discussion very interesting, at first I thought that we were all being steered into an all subscription model but it soon became clear that N3V have merely followed modern practice, is it not the case that younger people want the latest and greatest and prefer to rent as they do with phones, cars, houses whereas the older members have always been used to owning things and accept that they will be out of date as soon as bought. When I first married you rented TVs and later Video Recorders mainly because of the rate of change their unreliabilty and the sheer expense. If you rented you called the shop and they sent out a main with a box of spares to fix the fault. Two years later we upgraded to a colour TV if we had bought a TV that would not have happened. Fifty years later and things have changed, we bought a TV ten years ago and are still happy with it as we can't tell the difference between SD and HD let alone the higher spec.

I intend to buy TRS19 as soon as the first patch in incorporated into the DVD as my broadband is far too slow to download (1.1 Mbps)



Ken

 

[celje]

I think the subscription with Trainz is the same thing as the subscription of MS Office 365: You will always get the newest stable version. If you will finish the subscription, you have no longer access to the program. If you want to use it furthermore, you have to buy the latest released stable version.

Just my two cents.

Regards

Swordfish

Something new, Swordfish is the first one who is mentioned quality of products (get the newest stable version). N3V is talking about collecting money and, i admit, they are masters of advertising

 

[pware]

Something new, Swordfish is the first one who is mentioned quality of products (get the newest stable version). N3V is talking about collecting money and, i admit, they are masters of advertising

I do not understand your point. Since when does Microsoft not collect money - in fact, according to independent industry reports, Office 365 subscriptions have been a huge money earner for Microsoft. Without collecting money N3V would not survive.

In terms of quality of product, Trainz 2019 is by far the best Trainz version ever released (not just my opinion). The "newest stable version" does not mean "bug free" it simply means what it says - more stable than previous versions and that is certainly true of TRS19.

 

[celje]

Hello pware

--''The "newest stable version" does not mean "bug free" it simply means what it says - more stable than previous versions''

I'm a user, my opinion is simple. For me TS12 is better then TANE and TRS19. Why? In TS12 i run my about 600 km route EUtogether with 16 hours session long without problem. In TANE and TRS19 it's impossible.

--''Without collecting money N3V would not survive''

With good work and stable product the sell will be better. It's unpleasant reading months and months that patch will be out soon. (SP4 and SP1 for 19). It's irresponsibility and underestimate of users. Where obligation and duty are? Obviously the advertising is more important.

 

[wreeder]

Ok, we have a winner! Yes, the answer is marketing. Clearly the subscription model is not meant for long term users. It is designed to attract gamers. Think about it. Your average gamer buys or rents a game for week and plays it non-stop until they finish it or gets tired of playing. They move on by trading the game in on a new purchase. Just $15 gets you the game for 30 days and access to all the DLC and a first class download ticket. Before the 30 days is up just cancel the subscription.

Many of us think of Trainz as a construction set for building virtual railroads but how much money is there for that product. Lets say N3V's monthly revenue is $1 million USD. Activision Blizzard is said to have monthly revenue of $1234 million USD for all sources of revenue. They have 37 million subscribers paying at least $10 a month to play all their games. Then add on sales of expansion packs, in game sales and licensing their trademarked images to companies making t-shirts, lunchboxes, posters and anything else you can think of.

Even though Trainz has always had a close relationship with the community, the future of Trainz is expanding the user base beyond just people with a love for trains.

William

 

[JCitron]

With good work and stable product the sell will be better. It's unpleasant reading months and months that patch will be out soon. (SP4 and SP1 for 19). It's irresponsibility and underestimate of users. Where obligation and duty are? Obviously the advertising is more important.

I would rather read the patches will be out soon(tm) than have patches released that break things so bad that multiple hotfixes are required to fix the fixes made by the service packs. We've been that route with TRS2004, TS2009, TS2010, TS12, and T:ANE so far. TRS2019 is still new enough to not quite be at that point.

The thing is if you find a bug report it and don't be afraid if someone else found it too. I'm always reporting bugs and have gotten some things fixed and some rather awful things in the works, but the only way that happens is to report the bugs because the developers only write code, and the QA Team only tests stuff to a point and beta testers only find so much.

 

[euromodeller]

What's been improved - we'll get full list together when we have some time.

PBR - swings and roundabouts. Look fantastic everywhere but the sharp angles. Turning them off is an option.

Effects tools - updates already well underway and most likely coming Q4 for Trainz Plus members

Setting a route - I assume you mean the dropdown lists of industries for navigate to versus the mutli-tier approach used previously? Multi-tier has limitations (you can't list more than 20 or so items per tier and 1000 or so items total), and takes up more screen space. The dropdown lists removes those limitations, allows you to filter immediately to your desired destination, eliminates timeout concerns and adds a couple of extra clicks (but replaces a few mouse movements).

If you mean something else, please explain.

You got it right Tony, that's what I meant (driver instructions)
Thank you for your explanation for the changes.

Pity about the PBR, that was one of the reasons for me buying TRS19.
I gave PBR a good try, but I eventually turned it off a long time ago, disappointing it was after all the hype.

I am not going to buy a subscription just to get an early update for Turf FX, the interface should have been simplified before release. I am surprised that it got past the Beta Testers.
That too is turned off.

 

[pware]

For me TS12 is better then TANE and TRS19. Why? In TS12 i run my about 600 km route EUtogether with 16 hours session long without problem. In TANE and TRS19 it's impossible.

I rarely use AI in any of my "game play", and when I so it is a single consist under AI control, so that sort of ability is not at all important to me - but I appreciate that for some it is. My criteria are visual quality ("realism" if you like but that is a term that is too often abused), play-ability, the user interface and features. In those areas TRS19 stands alone.

It's unpleasant reading months and months that patch will be out soon.

As John stated above, waiting longer for SPs that have had the time to be tested and "debugged" is far better than getting them when promised but unfit for use. As many have pointed out Trainz SPs have normally been released on an annual basis so complaining about waiting "months and months" has more to do with unrealistic expectations than practicality.

 

[dangavel]

Well i’m Still using tane sp3, it works ok for me 95% of the time , because all I’m doing is route building , IMO , chasing after perfection is the wrong objective in this hobby .if it works most of the time ,best well leave things as they are, reports of issues with various features of 2019 confirm to me that my decision seems sensible , at least in my set of circumstances .

 

[pware]

... IMO , chasing after perfection is the wrong objective in this hobby .if it works most of the time ,best well leave things as they are, reports of issues with various features of 2019 confirm to me that my decision seems sensible , at least in my set of circumstances .

While I understand your point of view, I have never been a supporter of the view that "if it works well enough then leave it be" or "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". If we had followed that philosophy then we would not have a whole list of features in Trainz, to name just a few that come quickly to mind:-

• working industries and passenger stations
• animated semaphore signals (remember the very first ones - the arms did not move!) and junction points (I cannot see why some route creators still don't use them)
• animated assets
• LOD
• Speedtrees
• ITs and EITs
• Navigation Points
• even the much maligned AI was not a part of the earliest Trainz versions

... and many others that no doubt others could add. Now I appreciate that these (and other new innovations) are not on everyone's favourites list but they have gone from "new" or "novel" to "mainstream" very quickly.

Staying with what you are familiar and comfortable with does have its advantages but one thing that I love about Trainz is that each version has brought something new. Yes that sometimes (often) means a new and steeper learning curve but without that challenge I would have found Trainz very boring and would have left long ago.