Signals between blocks

[jankvis]

I've read several tutorials regarding this issue, but can't get my signaling right. In and just around my stations, it seem to be ok, thx to all the tutorials and posts here.

But I have 2 simple newbie questions:

1. In the area between stations (some are long strech, other shorter), how far between one signal to the other ??

2. There are several "types" of signal, which are the best to use in theese areas (the strech between stations)

The answer may be obvious, but I can't get it right so please help

 

[john259]

There's some very useful information about signalling on Chuck Brite's Midwest Central. - HTH, John

 

[BidMod]

I have 2 simple newbie questions:

1. In the area between stations (some are long strech, other shorter), how far between one signal to the other ??

2. There are several "types" of signal, which are the best to use in theese areas (the strech between stations)

The answer may be obvious, but I can't get it right so please help

I don't think the answer is obvious, especially since the question is very open-ended.

1) the limit in the game I think is 3000m (3km). This is a long block in modern terms, but not impossible with older systems. Perhaps someone could confirm this for me? As far as I know, this is the maximum distance the computer can "see", though I don't know what aspect the signals display if the gap is this big.

2) This depends a lot on the context. In Britain, there are only five basic signals which could be found anywhere (two, three and four aspect signals, ground signals and the fixed distant reflective board). Whilst there are variations (feathers), all that can be said is that under most circumstances you would only find three or four aspect signals on the main line, depending on the distances. Blocks are around one and a half miles (a little under 3km) long, which is a little over the braking distance of the heaviest trains. Disclaimer - I have been known to be wrong, so cross reference this.

You'd need to do some research into the prototype practice in Norway to find out what you need to model, but remember to keep it simple for the AI. A little Trainz liscense may be needed.

RE: John's reply:

I think there may be some aspects of the .pdf file that are not exactly accurate, but it is a good guide. As it says, the first point of reference should be the guide supplied on the disk.

 

[lewisner]

Signalling depends largely on the speed and density of traffic on a line.Usually a line signalled with Semaphores (known as Absolute Block Signalling in UK terms) would have about 2 Miles between the last Signal (the Starter) controlled from one box and the first Signal (the Distant) controlled by the next box. On a lightly used line such a Hertford North - Stevenage (which I used to work trains over) with one train per hour , Two Aspect ( Red/Green and Yellow/Green) would suffice.On a busier line with trains every 20 minutes Three Aspect Colour Lights (Red/Yellow/Green} would be used and on a high speed + density line such as the East Coast Main Line Four Aspect Colour Lights (Red/Yellow/Yellow/Green) would be used with flashing Yellows to indicate a junction ahead.On a very lightly used line (say Goods Only) its possible no signals except for Fixed Distants.Its a complicated Subject!

 

[Kelly88]

Signalling depends largely on the speed and density of traffic on a line.Usually a line signalled with Semaphores (known as Absolute Block Signalling in UK terms) would have about 2 Miles between the last Signal (the Starter) controlled from one box and the first Signal (the Distant) controlled by the next box. On a lightly used line such a Hertford North - Stevenage (which I used to work trains over) with one train per hour , Two Aspect ( Red/Green and Yellow/Green) would suffice.On a busier line with trains every 20 minutes Three Aspect Colour Lights (Red/Yellow/Green} would be used and on a high speed + density line such as the East Coast Main Line Four Aspect Colour Lights (Red/Yellow/Yellow/Green) would be used with flashing Yellows to indicate a junction ahead.On a very lightly used line (say Goods Only) its possible no signals except for Fixed Distants.Its a complicated Subject!

Problem is Trainz signal system does not work exactly like real life, and The AI thinks slightly different to every thing known to man or beast,

I would normaly place signals around stations/yard exits/entrances to give an apperance correct, this would be suplemented with invisible signals to help the AI ( it has 2 left feet at the best of times) now after leaving the station area an going out into the wilds it depends if the line is multi track or single track because both need to be treated different, with single track there I would have nothing, unless there was a passing loop this way you will not get the AI sending to units head on, in real life this would not be the case, as the driver would not get the clear to leave if there was something coming the otherway, back in days of old this was done with sticks/battons, the driver would be given one before he left the station and he would hand it in at the next station, it would be returned by the next driver going the other way, but with the telephone this changed.

anyway with trainz I go according to the ammount of traffic I intend to put down the line, but normaly about 3/4 times the length of the longest unit likly to transit, this keeps the flow going, and stops units hogging switches long before the are going to arrive and blocking other units, it also tends to give better control over unit speed, and better breaking to stop units over running the red because the were going to fast.

As I say if you are cab driving no problem, unless there are AI units also in the region, but for DCC and AI control you need a little sideways thought towards the signaling system you impliment, but I have never seen the Proto system that workes in Trainz correct under all conditions.

but then its sometimes fun to see the mess up the AI can make, and some time you just whant to pull your hair out as it will be different each time.

 

[titaniclover]

no AI have like two and a half.
i really dont get and like signalling its too complex

 

[john259]

signalling its too complex

A fact of life I fear! - John

 

[Natvander]

I don't think the answer is obvious, especially since the question is very open-ended.

1) the limit in the game I think is 3000m (3km). This is a long block in modern terms, but not impossible with older systems. Perhaps someone could confirm this for me? As far as I know, this is the maximum distance the computer can "see", though I don't know what aspect the signals display if the gap is this big.

quote]

The maximum distance is alot further than this - I have a block in excess of 20kms on my route.

The MINIMUM distance between signals should be no closer than the minimum braking distance of any train on that route (travelling at track speed) between the first signal that displays a warning indication to the signal that displays stop. So...if you are using standard 3 aspect signals, your blocks will be quite large (depending on track speed), but if you use signals that can display an advanced warning aspect (such as 4 aspect signals, signals that have a flashing caution light etc) you can reduce the size of your blocks.

Hope that helps.

 

[jankvis]

THX all , i must say still all the mess i get when lining up the signals, it's fun. u always get suprises along the way.....

I've read some tutorials, but I have more to learn about DIFFERENT signal types, so here we go again...

When do u use the type 1 signals and so on (type 2 etc type 3etc.....type 6). I read u guys used type 3 and 4, but when do u use the other like type 1 and 4 and 5 and 6.....and so on

I'm quite new to this and it's much to keep control over, but with a little help along the way, things can get better......

 

[lewisner]

When you say Type 1 and 2 signals what exactly do you mean? Are you talking about the Auran built-in Colour Lights numbered BR1 etc?..

 

[ejlynch]

Signalling a route is easy but can become complex if you don't design the signals to suit the type of route you are creating
As mentioned above. A route designer needs to take many things into consideration:
Driving in CAB mode or DCC or AI . But I will stick with CAB mode.
Speed limits set. ( 65 kph to 160 kph )
Type of traffic using the line( 3000tonne coal to two car commuter )
Number of Trains using the line. ( If you plan for more than onw passing each way at less than 15 minutes apart ,you may need DOUBLE track EG single track each way)
Distance signals ,far enough in front of the HOME signal to allow the train to stop at the home signal. ( 3000 tonne of coal at 100 kph down a 1.5 % gradient..................well who knows? ) )
Gradient of the track. up OR down.
Designing a working railway ( in Trainz ) can be fun ..........if you KISS it.

cheers errol

 

[JCitron]

I've had pretty good success using 1 or 2 3000-ton US coal consists as distance beween blocks.

The process is simple. Start at the beginning of double-track, and place the complete consist within the passing siding.

Where the consist ends, plop down your signal to protect that section. Roll the consist up so that the back end (where the caboose would go) is near the signals you just put down then this until you reach the end where the passing siding or double-track goes to a single line again.

Sometimes the passing siding is a bit short to make the block a consistent size so I fiddle around with the distances between the signals. There is no set rule, and since I run mostly short freights and commuter-size trains, I don't worry about the blocks being too close.

I noticed, when driving the route, that the AI drivers can keep the trains moving pretty well with the signals spaced this way. If they're too far, they get scared and run at half-speed.

I'm probably off in left field, but considering that the AI are mostly happy with what I'm doing, I can't complain too much!

John

 

[jankvis]

Ok, lets get into details....

I am using the map Hawes junction as u possible know very well, but I've expandet it, so the pics u see here are from the expanded part. I,ve made a track from Hawes east, this goes in a circle and joins between Hawes and Garsdale again, but u don't see the orginal map on my pics. The tracks (discussed here) goes from a mill (SCM) trough a station (SCS) and to a grain silo.

I just posted some pics as they tell u more than 1000 words (i hope )

Overview map

then 3 pics from the Grain silo crossing site:

Theese are from the grain silo crossing..

And now the station between the silo and the mill, first and overview:

..and pics from the same site:

And now from the mill site:

Ok, then I leave it up to u guys to comment on how the signal are placed, I u can see i use the dwarfs alot, as i find them nice and handy in size..as u can see on the map I have placed signals between the mill and the station and the station and the grain silo crossing (this crossing also serve as a loop for meeting trains from the east and i've laid out a extra track to manage it.) Are there any needs for furter/less signals and witch kind of signals would u use for this route, and I also want comment on the signals I use in the crossing/station areas...???

 

[lewisner]

In the second shot the colour light signals would not be arranged like that in real life The furthest one from the camera has a Position 4 Junction Indicator "Feather" and the second has a Position 1.There should be just the one signal (furthest) with both Position 1 and 4 Indicators (Signal BR1 in the Auran Builtin signals). The right hand Semaphore should be nearer the camera and the far right line should join the centre line between the Semaphore and the junction, so that the Semaphore protects the far right line.The points on the far right line should be worked by Point Motor (WH3) is a nice one) or Points 2.