Scenery – let’s get real!
- Thread starter mezzoprezzo
- Start date
Rounded Mountains; Rolling Hills
@scottish;
I no longer keep routes that are not made using DEM data. They just don't look realistic.
I just finished The E & N Railway (track only) (Southern Vancouver Island) it is 234 Km long. It took less than a week to gather the DEM data, the raster maps and ESRI data (all free) and build the route. The route has track and power lines laid. (the route would occupy 46,800 baseboards E - W, but takes 3706 baseboards after being automatically trimmed to 3 baseboards either side of the track. As well, all the baseboards containing track are 5m grid.
Now the real work on the E & N starts.
I apologize for being OT, but I really like this thread and the ground is such an important scenic element.
Thanks for your time,
cheers,
--michael. <aka froobie>
@scottish;
I no longer keep routes that are not made using DEM data. They just don't look realistic.
I just finished The E & N Railway (track only) (Southern Vancouver Island) it is 234 Km long. It took less than a week to gather the DEM data, the raster maps and ESRI data (all free) and build the route. The route has track and power lines laid. (the route would occupy 46,800 baseboards E - W, but takes 3706 baseboards after being automatically trimmed to 3 baseboards either side of the track. As well, all the baseboards containing track are 5m grid.
Now the real work on the E & N starts.
I apologize for being OT, but I really like this thread and the ground is such an important scenic element.
Thanks for your time,
cheers,
--michael. <aka froobie>
You can do what you want with routes, but I disagree with this statement. A route, whether it be prototypical using DEM data, or purely fictitious with the route maker laying in the hills, valleys, etc. can be as realistic as the route maker desires. It's all in the creative mind of the route maker. The rails, ballast, roads, rivers, towns, hills, foliage, etc. etc. can be put in to make a very realistic route, even if it is entirely fiction.
Cheers!
Dave
steamboateng
New member
I have to agree with froobie on the use of DEM data. Personally, I prefer TransDEM for its ease of use and functionality. But let's not miss the point, here; there is still a lot of work required in a DEM generated route. Track grades, road grades and built-up areas still require a lot of terrain manipulation. And I'm not saying a fictional route is qualitively better or less than a DEM laid route. The simple advantages of a DEM generated route is: a) Accuracy; it can reproduce a specific region. b) Speed; it can generate a lot of terrain in a very short time.
For my buck, I'd rather be laying track and scenery, and runnining trainz, than humping bumps on a tabletop landscape! And I certainly will take anyone to task who implies that DEM routes are a lesser challenge. The amount of research, in gathering maps, DEM data, photos, economic and industrial histories, old route data, etc, etc..........is a challange in itself. The problems in trying to reproduce all that data in a Trainz route, sometimes seems unsurmountable. There are quite a few Trainzers out there who choose to model protypical routes, sometimes related to a specific era. Many use DEM data to some degree. I certainly wouldn't say theiir accomplishments are any less than any other Trainzer's!
For my buck, I'd rather be laying track and scenery, and runnining trainz, than humping bumps on a tabletop landscape! And I certainly will take anyone to task who implies that DEM routes are a lesser challenge. The amount of research, in gathering maps, DEM data, photos, economic and industrial histories, old route data, etc, etc..........is a challange in itself. The problems in trying to reproduce all that data in a Trainz route, sometimes seems unsurmountable. There are quite a few Trainzers out there who choose to model protypical routes, sometimes related to a specific era. Many use DEM data to some degree. I certainly wouldn't say theiir accomplishments are any less than any other Trainzer's!
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Does it really matter whether a route builder uses a DEM or freehands the whole thing? In my way of thinking, even the most prototypical route will never be, because of the content required and the tiny details that won't be able to be accomplished. However, some folks want to ride the route as close to prototypical as possible, and that's fine, use a DEM.
steamboateng
New member
DEM's, inherently demands realism. Trainz, realistically, can't provide that dirty, greasy, warm cylinder oil, or burnt diesel cylinder oil smell, or scent of wild vegetation. Nor, unless we make an honest attempt, can it portray a place and time, locked in our own imaginations.
I've no case agaist imagination. Cetrtainly no case agaist creativity. I suppose, to each of us beauty is where you find it. My point is, creativity is not limited to the trolls and imps of our childhood! Track is laid from the last place it was left! Like it or not; it's there! Even the most inventive of us, perhaps excepting those Martian bubbles offered on the DLS, have had to place ourselves at a starting point.
If Trainz is a game; chug-a-chuggin' from here to there, that's fine. But somehow, to me, it's more than that.
It's history! It's a chance to glimpse social and political history as it evolved.
I do not take my Trainz lightly.
Choo-choo on, if you wish. But I certainly will not accept any simplistic reason for a railroad's existance, nor deny the political and/or economic factors which brought about its being!
I've no case agaist imagination. Cetrtainly no case agaist creativity. I suppose, to each of us beauty is where you find it. My point is, creativity is not limited to the trolls and imps of our childhood! Track is laid from the last place it was left! Like it or not; it's there! Even the most inventive of us, perhaps excepting those Martian bubbles offered on the DLS, have had to place ourselves at a starting point.
If Trainz is a game; chug-a-chuggin' from here to there, that's fine. But somehow, to me, it's more than that.
It's history! It's a chance to glimpse social and political history as it evolved.
I do not take my Trainz lightly.
Choo-choo on, if you wish. But I certainly will not accept any simplistic reason for a railroad's existance, nor deny the political and/or economic factors which brought about its being!
NickieFoenshauge
New member
I'd rather say it's "story", whether it be fictional or historical in character. When you build a route and sessions, you basically tell a story, and it's how that story resonates in yourself and others that matters. Does it touch you? Does it grab you by the throat and make you feel "I'd like to be a part of this"? And to achieve that resonance you obviously have to do know what you are talking about. Your story must be coherent and it must have a politically, socially and environmentally credible setting. For historical stories, DEM data will help you here, for fiction it won't (well, I suppose it could) . Simple as that.
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BUT:
some of us aren't very creative: I'd fail as an Architect, but was successful as a senior IT Director;
some of us are handicapped: I have mild visual impairment; I have moderate physical impairment of my right arm and hand.
So we make choices based on our abilities. I can't tell you how much I envy, for example, Bob Cass's ability with Streams and Rivers. I spend hours experimenting and still not much joy :'( (I'd love an explanation of how it was done and what was used for the views in #22, #23 and especially #45)
Thanks for listening and especially creating so many wonders in Trainz.
cheers,
--michael.
some of us aren't very creative: I'd fail as an Architect, but was successful as a senior IT Director;
some of us are handicapped: I have mild visual impairment; I have moderate physical impairment of my right arm and hand.
So we make choices based on our abilities. I can't tell you how much I envy, for example, Bob Cass's ability with Streams and Rivers. I spend hours experimenting and still not much joy :'( (I'd love an explanation of how it was done and what was used for the views in #22, #23 and especially #45)
Thanks for listening and especially creating so many wonders in Trainz.
cheers,
--michael.
steamboateng
New member
Mr. Mezzoprezzo started this wonderful discussion with a very simple statement; 'Let's get real'!
Certainly, generating a route from DEM data is 'real'. But it's not that stark reality, devoid of reason or senses. Actually, it's reproducing Mother Nature's own handiwork, which itself was the work of countless millenia. If one prefers to challenge that creation, fine; but even that challenge is an immitation of what already exists. I, for one, prefer to stay on Mother Nature's good side. I learned that a long time ago, when deliberating the issues between butter and margerine!
I chose butter!
Certainly, generating a route from DEM data is 'real'. But it's not that stark reality, devoid of reason or senses. Actually, it's reproducing Mother Nature's own handiwork, which itself was the work of countless millenia. If one prefers to challenge that creation, fine; but even that challenge is an immitation of what already exists. I, for one, prefer to stay on Mother Nature's good side. I learned that a long time ago, when deliberating the issues between butter and margerine!
I chose butter!
I'm using a combination of DEM data and handmade baseboards. I have engineered these (perfect terminology for this) so that when traveling between one to the other, there's no way to tell the difference. This takes a lot of work to get this right, and really, a lot of trial and error. I will post some pictures of this soon(tm) to show you what I'm talking about.
I noticed too, and I'm sure you have too Mike (Steamboateng), that populating a DEM route realistically is really a lot of extra work. I find working on my own area to be the most difficult because I can't seem to "get things right". There are so many buildings that really need to be made for the area, as well as so many that are long gone from their locations. I find I have to compromise more and more so I can get on with the route. The problem is every time I start to compromise, my inner self say not to and I end up picking at the area instead to get things to look right. I suppose that in the end, whether the route is handmade, or DEM data, there is still a lot of compromising to be done. There is just so much that our computers and selves can handle while route building and driving. On the same note, I can say that scenicking a hand-built route to be easier because we can throw at the scene what we want because there's nothing that we have to measure up to.
I agree that Trainzing, whether it's building in Surveyor, or running our final routes, is quite an undertaking that one wouldn't expect from a "game". The challenges we face while building and running are one of the things that has kept me using the program for so long. I have a shelf full of games that installed and removed very quickly because they don't have this return on investment.
John
I noticed too, and I'm sure you have too Mike (Steamboateng), that populating a DEM route realistically is really a lot of extra work. I find working on my own area to be the most difficult because I can't seem to "get things right". There are so many buildings that really need to be made for the area, as well as so many that are long gone from their locations. I find I have to compromise more and more so I can get on with the route. The problem is every time I start to compromise, my inner self say not to and I end up picking at the area instead to get things to look right. I suppose that in the end, whether the route is handmade, or DEM data, there is still a lot of compromising to be done. There is just so much that our computers and selves can handle while route building and driving. On the same note, I can say that scenicking a hand-built route to be easier because we can throw at the scene what we want because there's nothing that we have to measure up to.
I agree that Trainzing, whether it's building in Surveyor, or running our final routes, is quite an undertaking that one wouldn't expect from a "game". The challenges we face while building and running are one of the things that has kept me using the program for so long. I have a shelf full of games that installed and removed very quickly because they don't have this return on investment.
John
steamboateng
New member
John, I hear you loud and clear. It is a near impossible task to model an area accurately, unless you make your own assets, a time consuming process at best. I'm having a tough enough time gathering assets that have even simlar archecectural elements that match an area! For instance, how many 2 storey wood frame houses (clabbord or shake) with a standard 2 sided pitched roof and a small buisiness front can you find on the DLS? There are few indeed, and such buildings are common throughout the the Northeast and the Atlantic states! Frustration and compromise are on all levels!
At least you make some of them. I have a few started in Blender, but I get lost in the texture process. We will be going on vacation in a week or so, for about a month. I plan to work on Blender texturing and finally beat that gremlin, because Trainz is staying home on the desktop computer.
Back to your post; you have hit the nail squarely on target! It is sooooooooo much more difficult and a lot more work in research to model a prototype road and the area it serves. We are limited in our choices of assets, be it buildings, scenery, or or rolling stock.
Stream Tumble..Do Things Lightly you can always add more..
froobie: First of all thank you for your comment..I will certainly try to tell you how I did my streams..Imagination is the first thing to have, if you can visualize end result, keeping in mind all the time you are working want you want to achieve it will certainly help you..I worked on a series of pics to show you how it was done..All textures is on the DLS..Select the area you want work it into a tumble area(I like call it tumble down vs waterfall)use the AL Creek 1 First and scramble it all over entire tumble(using the brackett key hold down at the same time your applying your texture) and remember to have your circle small as you can(Brush)
froobie: First of all thank you for your comment..I will certainly try to tell you how I did my streams..Imagination is the first thing to have, if you can visualize end result, keeping in mind all the time you are working want you want to achieve it will certainly help you..I worked on a series of pics to show you how it was done..All textures is on the DLS..Select the area you want work it into a tumble area(I like call it tumble down vs waterfall)use the AL Creek 1 First and scramble it all over entire tumble(using the brackett key hold down at the same time your applying your texture) and remember to have your circle small as you can(Brush)
