Porting freeware content between platforms

[electra]

A few days ago, WEN stumbled across someone on Facebook porting TRS content over to Railworks 3 - including his own. The individual concerned denied it and claimed it was all his own work - though I recognised Pacific's class 81, through the mistake he made with the ETH cable at one end (it's on the wrong side of the buffer beam).

It's got me thinking about the issue of sharing freeware content between platforms again, though. A fair number of TRS users also use Railworks. I've long felt that both groups should work together more and share content, but I'd be really interested to know what content creators on here think. Would you be willing to permit porting of your content to Railworks?

This question equally applies to payware creators. Would you consider selling your products to Railworks users, as well as TRS ones?

 

[sniper297]

Routes and sessions no, trainsets yes, many examples of MSTS models that were imported into railworks. Sticking point is that you need the original source files from a model making program, which I've never seen included in uploads for any of the big three trainsims. Once you have the source file you need a 3D modelmaking program that can import it, then export it in a format that can be imported into the game you want to get it into. I had two MSTS model makers give me the source files for a GP7 and a North Shore interurban, one in TSM format and the other in IG or something. Not knowing how to use 3D canvas type programs I got other people to do the import export thingamy, and once I had the GeoPcDx file (railworks equivalent of Trainz IM or MSTS S and SD, the mesh) I was able to assemble the parts and get them working in the game. Neither one was worth the effort, they didn't look nearly as good as models made for the game from scratch.

 

[electra]

Routes and sessions no, trainsets yes, many examples of MSTS models that were imported into railworks. Sticking point is that you need the original source files from a model making program, which I've never seen included in uploads for any of the big three trainsims. Once you have the source file you need a 3D modelmaking program that can import it, then export it in a format that can be imported into the game you want to get it into. I had two MSTS model makers give me the source files for a GP7 and a North Shore interurban, one in TSM format and the other in IG or something. Not knowing how to use 3D canvas type programs I got other people to do the import export thingamy, and once I had the GeoPcDx file (railworks equivalent of Trainz IM or MSTS S and SD, the mesh) I was able to assemble the parts and get them working in the game. Neither one was worth the effort, they didn't look nearly as good as models made for the game from scratch.

Perhaps, I should've been more specific... Yes, rolling stock and scenery items, but not routes or sessions.

WEN thinks there must be some way to decompile the cdp files to gain access to the original mesh - else how did his class 121 and class 141 manage to get ported over. WEN's class 302 and 308 have also been ported over (legitimately, using supplied meshes) to Railworks by a former TRS user and appeared - after some work - to work well in it, so it is possible. I think WEN's class 502 is being optimised for both Railworks and TRS, so again it is possible.

 

[Wessex_Electric_Nutter]

Perhaps, I should've been more specific... Yes, rolling stock and scenery items, but not routes or sessions.

WEN thinks there must be some way to decompile the cdp files to gain access to the original mesh - else how did his class 121 and class 141 manage to get ported over. WEN's class 302 and 308 have also been ported over (legitimately, using supplied meshes) to Railworks by a former TRS user and appeared - after some work - to work well in it, so it is possible. I think WEN's class 502 is being optimised for both Railworks and TRS, so again it is possible.

More over, they would have to of had a copy of Trainz to do it (and the "creator" denies having a version of trains, hello, 141 only available on the DLS and so does the 121.). The textures are straight-forward to do as you can easily convert them from BMP/TGA/JPG/GIF/Whaterver to ACE (Railworks format) easily. The problem is decompiling the im/pm files, opening them up in another program and then exporting them as a IGS file. That itself is possible, but I only know of one program that does it as I've had to use it for my own meshes.

The problem isn't conversion, to make it clear, you don't own the object after downloading it, you accept to use a licence, which allows you to use the content, if you don't like the licence, don't download it and make your own. If the licence says you can't use the object on Wednesdays for the next 1,345 years, then you have to abide by it. (The interesting point, would that be legally binding, let alone enforceable?) That was just a small example, although rather extreme.

However, the EULA as its called is one of the first things to be ignored - one reason why I don't have EULA's, rather than rely on common law for virtually everything. So you can't take me to court because you created it before I did, as I have plenty of evidence to say I made it . Most creators say "you aren't allowed to do x, y, z without permission" as that is the restrictions they have in force and they may have a number of reasons for having those restrictions (Think about it like this, if your work that you slaved away for 3 months and then someone claims it as theirs on another site and distributes it, wouldn't you be upset? I am sure you would be. Its called reasonable respect.) And that's what ultimately the authors would like, respect.

That is why it always pays to ask and email "would it be ok if I do this to your object?" to the author via email? No one is going to have a go at you, in fact, you might get a yes in a majority of cases or a long explanation to why you cant. And if an author doesn't get back to you, its still not OK to just go ahead. Quite simply, if you just go ahead doing what you want to without the authors permission, then oh dear, if s/he recongises it, you could be in a lot of trouble and that may mean civil court action.

 

[chuffbuff]

I for one agree with you whole-heartedly WEN. Personally, I think the culprits should be named and shamed!

Some of us do know what it's like to have been ripped off where-as freeware content is concerned. I'm curious if it's possible to use a method of encryption in the im/pm files so that they cannot be tampered with ?

Cheers,

Marty

 

[electra]

I for one agree with you whole-heartedly WEN. Personally, I think the culprits should be named and shamed!

The problem is, a lot just hide behind pseudonyms - meaning they simply change to another one, when caught out. The one from a few days ago was going under the name 'FreeWorks'. They may well be back under another name by now...

 

[clam1952]

I for one agree with you whole-heartedly WEN. Personally, I think the culprits should be named and shamed!

Some of us do know what it's like to have been ripped off where-as freeware content is concerned. I'm curious if it's possible to use a method of encryption in the im/pm files so that they cannot be tampered with ?

Cheers,

Marty

Also agree with WEN

Encryption? In theory yes but would it deter a good hacker or the creator of mentioned software modifying his program to suit? Extremely unlikely, ignoring the rights and wrongs, these guys are usually pretty good at what they do. I might add I don't think that program, if it's the payware one I'm thinking of, was intentionally made to enable people to steal stuff and pass off as their own. Unfortunately as with any software, there are those who will use any method available to pinch stuff.

 

[Euphod]

I'm sure more than half of the content on the DLS is already available elsewhere, you don't think the crackers are going to stop with the basic game do you? I'm sure there's a pipeline straight from some member or members here to some obscure site somewhere else.

 

[nexusdj]

As per post on British Trainz forum : There are programs available which will grab a 3d screenshot of whatever Sim you are using and convert everything (track trees buildings roads trains etc) into a mesh that can be opened in 3DS max , The mesh is then altered to suit and exported to the next Sim .

I'll go on record and say I dont use this and would never use it (I've been on that site and found out that I couldn't anyway as it's only usable on a 32bit system , all in this house are 64bit by choice !!)

WEN your 3ds files for your class 121 have been available from your website for a while now (I have downloaded them and have them on my system along with a few other meshes that you've made available) so that's possibly where the user got those files from .

 

[Mick_Berg]

As per post on British Trainz forum : There are programs available which will grab a 3d screenshot of whatever Sim you are using and convert everything (track trees buildings roads trains etc) into a mesh that can be opened in 3DS max , The mesh is then altered to suit and exported to the next Sim .

I find this very hard to believe. A screenshot is two-dimensional. So this program looks at a flat picture, and then creates a mesh? And sorts out all the different objects although they are overlapping? If things are overlapping then the hidden data does not exist. I would have said this is impossible. Of course I could be wrong, but I'd love to know what this magical software is! I have no wish to actually use it, but just the idea that it can be done intrigues me.


Mick Berg.

 

[Wessex_Electric_Nutter]

WEN your 3ds files for your class 121 have been available from your website for a while now (I have downloaded them and have them on my system along with a few other meshes that you've made available) so that's possibly where the user got those files from .

Fair enough and I pointed out to the user "I don't mind what he does with my content, but its others content that I am more worried about", the 141 I think only had 2 days as a source file before it was removed.

EDIT: Electra has had a lively discussion about the issue on facebook, however, regardless what the EULA says, my IP is my IP and I don't think RSDL have a say what I can do with my original meshes which I don't intend to sell anyway. If I was working for them, thats a different matter and yes, I'd respect the EULA. However, I wish everyone would wake up and see there are gains on both sides of the fence, treating RS and Trainz seperately isn't going to get anyone anywhere and what has suprised me is that Auran hasn't forced RSDL to change the title of their product either. Even I am starting to get confused with Train Simulator 2012 and Trainz Simulator 2012!

 

[electra]

WEN your 3ds files for your class 121 have been available from your website for a while now (I have downloaded them and have them on my system along with a few other meshes that you've made available) so that's possibly where the user got those files from .

Is Pacific7's class 81* and 89, eldavo's class 92 or Pikkabird's class 87 available anywhere in mesh form? These were also plundered.

*: The class 81 was immediately recognisable by the mistake P7 made when he originally built it - ie. the ETH cable at one end being on the wrong side.

 

[electra]

...regardless what the EULA says, my IP is my IP and I don't think RSDL have a say what I can do with my original meshes which I don't intend to sell anyway. If I was working for them, thats a different matter and yes, I'd respect the EULA.

I'd read this thread before commenting any further on that...

However, I wish everyone would wake up and see there are gains on both sides of the fence, treating RS and Trainz seperately isn't going to get anyone anywhere...

I've been thinking this since the early days of Trainz and MSTS - indeed, I once sent requests to MSTS users about porting their content over and never received a reply from any of them.

what has suprised me is that Auran hasn't forced RSDL to change the title of their product either. Even I am starting to get confused with Train Simulator 2012 and Trainz Simulator 2012!

Can't see the issue. Both are completely different. The only time they can be confused is when their full names are abbreviated!

 

[sniper297]

Copyrights and legalities aside, I suspect it probably works better anyway if the original author does the actual conversion since he's the one who made it originally and would be familiar with what goes where and why. Looked up some of the 3 year old posts;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?269783-Lack-of-Rolling-Stock-Phase-2

Might need to be a member and logged in to see the pictures. Eventually that produced a working model;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?269856-Incoming-geep!

Which got the original MSTS creator interested enough that he bought the game and started porting over some of his own MSTS models;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?283098-New-type-of-stealth-engine

Which again, due to differences in code, required a lot of debugging to get rid of glitches caused by the different ways the two programs process stuff like attachments.

I made a gimmee pig post (being a long time MSTS creator I can get away with that in the MSTS community) asking for source files to convert;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?284602-Gimmee-gimmee!

But never got anyone interested. That's the biggest hurdle you face, unless the original creator is a friend or is interested in the other game, it's difficult to get him motivated to hunt up the old source file for conversion.

 

[nexusdj]

I find this very hard to believe. A screenshot is two-dimensional. So this program looks at a flat picture, and then creates a mesh? And sorts out all the different objects although they are overlapping? If things are overlapping then the hidden data does not exist. I would have said this is impossible. Of course I could be wrong, but I'd love to know what this magical software is! I have no wish to actually use it, but just the idea that it can be done intrigues me.


Mick Berg.

Sadly it does exist and has already been used on copyrighted trainz material to convert it for Railworks use :

This is my reskin of peter hicks class 91 for which I have permission :

Here's a screenshot posted in the Railworks depot download website showing the same loco that somebody has converted from peters GNER 91 and retextured for use in Railworks , Conversion permission for which was not granted by Peter Hicks (I've already asked him) :

Compare the texture in the box above to this screen grab of peters original trainz mk4's

The same website was also advertising links to the 3d extraction program website !!

Is Pacific7's class 81* and 89, eldavo's class 92 or Pikkabird's class 87 available anywhere in mesh form? These were also plundered.

*: The class 81 was immediately recognisable by the mistake P7 made when he originally built it - ie. the ETH cable at one end being on the wrong side.

Have you got the link to the page as I'd like to pass the info onto Dave about the 92 . The guys who made the 81 and 89 are now producing stuff with Railworks . Not sure on Pikkabird but he's still very protective of his work especially his shells .

Railworks depot class 92 : http://www.railworksdepot.co.uk/ind...=orig&id=33&option=com_joomgallery&Itemid=224
Original class 91 pic link http://www.railworksdepot.co.uk/ind...=orig&id=26&option=com_joomgallery&Itemid=224

They actually charge folks to be able to download the converted content so they are making money off other peoples work !!!!

 

[Wessex_Electric_Nutter]

I find this very hard to believe. A screenshot is two-dimensional. So this program looks at a flat picture, and then creates a mesh? And sorts out all the different objects although they are overlapping? If things are overlapping then the hidden data does not exist. I would have said this is impossible. Of course I could be wrong, but I'd love to know what this magical software is! I have no wish to actually use it, but just the idea that it can be done intrigues me.


Mick Berg.

I think he means extract what has been produce on the screen already, as in taking a snapshot of a 3D built scene in memory, as it has to be converted to 2D afterwards if that makes sense.

 

[electra]

Have you got the link to the page as I'd like to pass the info onto Dave about the 92 . The guys who made the 81 and 89 are now producing stuff with Railworks . Not sure on Pikkabird but he's still very protective of his work especially his shells .

I've already mailed Dave about the 92 (with an image of a rendering of it), via Facebook, but never received a reply. The Facebook page was quickly removed, when WEN and myself started questioning where the items were coming from.

The last I heard, Pikka was doing stuff for the open source version of Transport Tycoon.

 

[Wessex_Electric_Nutter]

Sadly it does exist and has already been used on copyrighted trainz material to convert it for Railworks use :
This is my reskin of peter hicks class 91 for which I have permission :
Here's a screenshot posted in the Railworks depot download website showing the same loco that somebody has converted from peters GNER 91 and retextured for use in Railworks , Conversion permission for which was not granted by Peter Hicks (I've already asked him) :

They actually charge folks to be able to download the converted content so they are making money off other peoples work !!!!

Just wondering, have you asked them to remove the offending content? The reason I ask, their terms state:

Your user content must not be illegal or unlawful, must not infringe any third party's legal rights, and must not be capable of giving rise to legal action whether against you or us or a third party (in each case under any applicable law).

If so and they have refused, have they told you why and have you thought about looking into legal action?

 

[clam1952]

I think he means extract what has been produce on the screen already, as in taking a snapshot of a 3D built scene in memory, as it has to be converted to 2D afterwards if that makes sense.

A Google reveals this and no I'm not posting the link:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]capture all geometry, textures and shaders, rendered during single frame;
- import captured geometry into 3D Studio Max or Maya;
- see what exactly has been drawn by each individual draw call;
- see renderstate, textures, vertex streams, index stream, vertex declaration, vertex and pixel shaders[/FONT]

 

[nexusdj]

That's the program , Like wise I'll not post a link as I'll get the blame should somebody get caught at a later date .

@WEN : I'd love to tackle these idiots as you know my stance on license breakers but it's not my content that's been stolen so legally I should not approach .
I've informed Eldavo via the RMweb site (Dave's new N gauge layout is on there and its superb) and I'm awaiting a reply .
Peter was informed a few months back but I've heard nothing and he's not been on the forums for ages .
Pikkabird is even harder to get a hold of but I'm sure I read a post the other day on one of the forums about which forum he hangs about on these days .
Pacific 7 is easy enough to contact but I've not seen the pics of that particular content so I won't be able to comment on them ?

Let's see if Dave's interested to pursue it further and go from there seeing as it is payware that's involved ?