Need help. Planning the route again.

[Zeldaboy14]

I know I've asked this maybe about 4 times already, but I'm still planning on recreating the Yankton, SD railroad, so what would be the best advise in creating the route? Some models are already available on the Sketchup Warehouse (mind you, some of the models I plan on using are made by one of my school teachers, which I have permission on using.) So, what tools would help me with making such a route?

 

[mjolnir]

What, exactly, do you mean by the "Yankton, SD railroad"? No railroad ever existed in SD by that name. The GN Railroad once operated a line from Yankton through Sioux Falls, to St. Cloud MN, (or somewhere in that vicinity). That line is now largely abandoned. The MILW once operated a line from North Sioux City (SD) through Aberdeen, SD, to Mitchell, SD. That line is still in use, but now operated by BNSF.

And for that matter, exactly what kind of a route do you have in mind? Do you want to create a model railroad style route, or a prototypical one? If you want to do a prototypical route, the logical starting point is to obtain Transdem, and create DEM maps, or to download the USGS topographical maps for the area you want to model.

ns

 

[AMTRAKwannabe]

I don't know what he means but it is pretty funny that the county line has adapted to go around the airfield, lol

Also, sketchup is a terrible tool to use for Trainz...

 

[Zeldaboy14]

What, exactly, do you mean by the "Yankton, SD railroad"? No railroad ever existed in SD by that name. The GN Railroad once operated a line from Yankton through Sioux Falls, to St. Cloud MN, (or somewhere in that vicinity). That line is now largely abandoned. The MILW once operated a line from North Sioux City (SD) through Aberdeen, SD, to Mitchell, SD. That line is still in use, but now operated by BNSF.

And for that matter, exactly what kind of a route do you have in mind? Do you want to create a model railroad style route, or a prototypical one? If you want to do a prototypical route, the logical starting point is to obtain Transdem, and create DEM maps, or to download the USGS topographical maps for the area you want to model.

ns

I wanted to create a couple of different versions. One where the old station was still in service, the next when the station was about abandoned. the next in a 2002 like era, and one in the modern (2014-2015) era.

 

[mjolnir]

AMTRAKwannabe,

When you write, in part

... it is pretty funny that the county line has adapted to go around the airfield, ...

you seem to be a bit misinformed. According to the Wikipedia page for the map of South Dakota highlighting Yankton County, (cf. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_South_Dakota_highlighting_Yankton_County.svg>) the county line was not adapted. It's clear from USGS survey maps that the city boundaries were changed thus, but that's not uncommon. Chicago did that with ORD, and Kansas City, MO did it with MCI.

As far as structures from Sketchup, there are only 317 in the Sketchup warehouse for South Dakota, a substantial number of them for SDSU at Brookings, and several others for highway signs, but only one for Yankton, so while they may not be ideal, they won't even bruise the frame rates.

ns

 

[JCitron]

A route building project can take time and some work, as you've found out. Here are some tips that might help:

1) Look at maps of the area you want to build including topographic maps. www.topoquest.com is an excellent source, Bing, and Google Earth are also good too.

2) For prototype routes, look at even more maps, and invest in TransDEM.

3) Download the terrain IMG file from the NGS server and import that into Trainz via TransDEM along with the topo map.

4) Plan on taking a long time building the route.

5) Narrow down the area, time period, come up with a backstory, and then;

6) Using the imported route, lay your track, put your buildings, and drive the route.

The above process can take many, many months, if not longer, to build and create a route. I started one about 6 months ago and I've barely scratched the surface. This is only a 4 mile, mostly urban, transit line which I've placed on a topographic map. This is a fictional route to boot. A prototypical project, such as the Hoosac Tunnel route I've been involved in, has taken even longer and required a break from it due to the complexity, models, and reworking for prototypical operation.

Narrowing down the scope helps a ton, seriously. If you want to use already made buildings, you'll be ahead of the game a bit when it comes to building the route because you won't have to stop to build the models. If you need to make objects, well then it's an even longer process.

John

 

[Zeldaboy14]

What in TransDEM? I've heard of it, and from what I've learned, it might be able to help, but don't you have to pay for it? If so, then that's out of the question. What would be a good alternative to TransDEM then?

 

[ulmer94]

http://www.rolandziegler.de/StreckeUndLandschaft/startseiteTransDEMEngl.htm

The HOG utility is the only alternative I know of...I wouldn't call it a "good" alternative, though, as it lacks a ton of stuf that TransDEM's able to do (not actually having TransDEM (yet, anyways) I can't tell you much about all it can do compared with HOG) but HOG (in my experience) is pretty limited to creating DEM maps and applying TIGER data (rough track, road and water body locations) as groundtextures. Somewhat useful, but limited and probably not suited to what you're trying to do.

 

[mjolnir]

So you clarified that you want to do more than one version of the route, and the time frames, but what about the more basic issues, like what exactly you want to model. The rail line between Yankton and Sioux City (to the Southeast) was opened in 1873 as the Dakota Southern. This was deeded to the Milwaukee Road in 1881, and subsequently extended to Mitchell. In the 1890's, the Great Northern built a branch to Yankton, through Sioux Falls. Most of that line was abandoned, though I suspect small bits of the trackage still may exist in Yankton and Sioux Falls.

So, do you want to model only Yankton and the immediate vicinity? The eras you intend seem to suggest you've little interest in the GN line to Sioux Falls, as during the last two versions you propose, the line had been pulled up.

On the other hand, if you want to do the full line from Sioux City to Aberdeen, SD, that will be about 300 miles. For estimating purposes, I figure a linear mile of railroad right of way with reasonable width of scenery takes about 9 Trainz baseboards per mile, so you are looking at a route that is right around 2700 baseboards. That's quite a project, especially when you're doing engine cab interiors at the same time.

ns

 

[Vern]

Purely IMHO, these days any prototype route done without the application of Transdem isn't worth doing. Save your pennies and purchase a copy - if you're at all serious about building a real life route it's an investment you won't regret.

 

[cascaderailroad]

Looks like the area is relatively flat, so Transdem would be a waste ... A one horse town like that with only a single track meandering in, through, and back out of town would be a simple route to create using basemaps ... or even measuring track, and laying track by eyeballing it ... it's only straights and curves, across a bumpy terrain ... No big deal !

 

[JCitron]

Looks like the area is relatively flat, so Transdem would be a waste ... A one horse town like that with only a single track meandering in, through, and back out of town would be a simple route to create using basemaps ... or even measuring track, and laying track by eyeballing it ... it's only straights and curves, across a bumpy terrain ... No big deal !

With the interesting terrain around this region, especially with the Black Hills to the west and the Bad Lands nearby, it might be worth investing in TransDEM for all of $33 USD or thereabouts. The area is also not necessarily flat. It has many long rolling hills and deep gullies which are quite obvious when on the land surface. I know because I've been in the Yankton vicinity numerous times during storm chases. Remember the Missouri River runs to the south and the town sits on the very steep bluff above. The old MILW line continues on to Mobridge which is another very interesting area to model. Prior to the damming of the Missouri River, there was a rail branch that ran towards Timberlake, Isabel, and Dupree. After the dam and lake were created, the MILW built a new branch to connect this area and grade still exists for it today; the tracks were ripped up some time in the late 1970s or early 1980s. From Mobridge to the west is a large combination truss bridge that crosses the Missouri River. It's quite a spectacular bridge to see from the nearby road. I saw some great lightning in that area back in 2009 and then in 2013. The last time I was out there in 2013, there were some long container trains making their way across the bridge.

Not to change the project, but James might be interested in building the New England branch instead. This also has a similar flavor with its long expanses of grassy plains and rural nature. This split off from the mainline at McLaughlin, SD and ran up to New England, ND. It's about 158 or 178 miles long and lasted until the mid-1970s. This would be a bit more manageable right now than starting off with a large 300-plus mile route if he's interested in doing something prototypical.


John

 

[steamboateng]

The only place on the planet that resembles 'flat' is Area '51'! And even that may be just an illusion.
For any Trainzer committed to prototype route building to any degree, I believe TransDem is a must have. The $33 bucks is well worth the time saved pushing up terrain verts from Surveyor's pancake world. TransDem is also relatively accurate (defined by the resolution of the DEM download) within the Trainz coordinate system and supports overlays of topo maps and satellite imagery.
But TransDem does not fit into many Trainzer's lunchbox's not only because of price; it's an uphill climb to master. Bless those that have; I'm sure they all have no regrets for learning the system. The tool, quite simply, opens a whole new world to Trainzers, literally!

 

[cascaderailroad]

I very much doubt that the OP can master Transdem, and laying tracks on a DEM is a nightmare, with a downhill gradient of 3.89%, preceded with a 6.87% uphill gradient, which is actually less than a 0.50% average over that small area ... Doubtfull he will ever get out to completing the complexity of Black Hills ... Transdem is not for everybody, and making a DEM of one particular area that you will never complete ... Is like investing $3000, putting an engine in a rusted out 1980 4 door Chevy Malibu ... it just aint' worth it, if your really not going to do anything with it.

 

[Zeldaboy14]

I also had plans to add the Sioux Falls line to the route, because there has been some stuff that was going to happen to the railroad, but in the end, the yards stayed.

 

[RRSignal]

TransDEM is certainly worth the money, and seeing as it can natively import raster maps as basemaps, seems to be pretty much a "must" for any kind of prototypical route-building. Having used proper basemaps versus experimenting with "guesstimating your own", laying track with a basemap is simply a matter of following a line, whereas you really have to do a lot of inaccurate guesstimation otherwise. Furthermore, TransDEM is pretty accurate with the overlay as well, whereas other methods are or seem more cumbersome and error-prone.

 

[Zeldaboy14]

Thanks for telling me RRSignal. I don't have anyway to buy TransDEM, so I'll have to do it the old fashion way, and make some "guestiments" on the route. I was reading that there is some Microsoft Tool that can help, but I think I was reading over in the Trainz 2004 area about that.

 

[JCitron]

Thanks for telling me RRSignal. I don't have anyway to buy TransDEM, so I'll have to do it the old fashion way, and make some "guestiments" on the route. I was reading that there is some Microsoft Tool that can help, but I think I was reading over in the Trainz 2004 area about that.

If you mean Microsoft's TerraServer, well that's actually Bing Maps and the underlying technology behind it. TransDem imports this information directly and overlays it on the downloaded height map. I've seen a difference in elevation between Google Earth (program) and a TransDem created route of only 3-6 meters at any given point. There are some issues though when there are lots of buildings, bridges, etc. because the other bumps in the ground get in the way, but other than those spots, it's very accurate.

It's too bad you can't invest in it. Perhaps you can ask for assistance from your family. It's only $33.00 and is probably the best Trainz-related investment you'll ever make. I never thought that initially until I started working on the Hoosac route and then some other personal routes. Now that I've, mastered the download, import and trim routine, I can create a ready-to-go Trainz route in a matter of a few minutes. The fact that the USGS now has historic topographic maps available for most of the country is a big help, and the fact that TD now supports Geo-Tiff format is even better as that opens up even more options. The USGS also has the Earth Explorer which has downloads of various places worldwide, albeit, at a lower resolution of 1-arcsecond.

As far as leveling out the odd grades, that occur. It's a matter of sighting down the line and smoothing the line over the distance. I take grade points as specific places then let the track smooth the grade over the distance. In the real world this is how it's done, and with higher-resolution data-models, such as the 1/3-arc and 1/9-arc resolution, the grades are less bumpy as Cascade says. When working on the Hoosac Tunnel route, I found the track to be within the 4.5% gradient as it is in real life. On another route, the grade was even smoother with a difference of only .08% in some areas.

John

 

[Zeldaboy14]

What about Trainz Maps, or is that not for making realistic maps? I know I was reading about something else that was a Microsoft Tool, and I don't think that it's the one you are talking about JCitron.

 

[mjolnir]

... Is like investing $3000, putting an engine in a rusted out 1980 4 door Chevy Malibu ... it just aint' worth it, ...

Well, I don't know; wouldn't be worth it in a Vega, but maybe a Malibu might be a different matter.

ns