N3V Needs to support pre-SP1 users with DLC

[Lots_Trains]

Putting aside the perceived rights and wrongs, I wonder if N3V after all the 'investment' they have put into the new DLC system are really going to backtrack?

Well amiga if you are involved in the beta testing you should already know (stop teasing), but I've always got the feeling that N3V knows whats best for me so I doubt it. Something needs to change after the TS12 SP1 fiasco, but then again nothing a good dose of denial won't fix.

Cheers

Lots

 

[amigacooke]

Well amiga if you are involved in the beta testing you should already know (stop teasing)

And if I was involved with testing at the moment, which I'm not, I wouldn't be able to give any comment on it anyway. NDAs and all that.

 

[gawpo50]

okay, a null file, i.e., /dev/null is empty, no size.

do you mean a 200mb file of /dev/zero?

FTFY... Have a good one!

a linux user.......
how about /root or /home

 

[JCitron]

Please try to stay on topic here without the personal attacks. (You know who you are!)


John

 

[cascaderailroad]

If one had a large enough PC, could one have 2 separate installations of TS12 on your PC ... one for SP1 ... and the other for non-SP1 ?

 

[oknotsen]

Offtopic, but meh

If one had a large enough PC, could one have 2 separate installations of TS12 on your PC ... one for SP1 ... and the other for non-SP1 ?

I have exactly that situation, installed on 1 SSD of 250gb. The OS, Windows 8, is also installed on that SSD.
Except for the SSD, the PC is "an average PC" I bought 1 year ago.

 

[JCitron]

I have exactly that situation, installed on 1 SSD of 250gb. The OS, Windows 8, is also installed on that SSD.
Except for the SSD, the PC is "an average PC" I bought 1 year ago.

If you're running Windows 8, you can add space to your system using Storage Spaces. I made a post regarding this in the Parts and Labour forum, but no one bothered to respond to it.

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...hings-in-Windows-8-Storage-Spaces-and-backups

For more information check here:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5307/windows-8s-storage-spaces-detailed

and here:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/storage-spaces-pools

Cool, aye!

John

 

[shaneturner12]

Two things to watch out for with Storage Spaces - first one is that it cannot be used with the system (Windows) drive, second one is that it wipes any information off the selected drives.

Shane

 

[RRSignal]

No wonder the world economy is in such a poor state when individuals consider that buying a game/simulator is an investment.

Quite the opposite: The economy is in such a sad state because people have been too cavalier and irresponsible with money. Especially other people's money. I think it might be threadjacking to go into this into detail here, but one doesn't have to dig too deeply to see that such irresponsibility is almost the universally cause of such problems.

As for the need to change the system (and we're also almost certainly not limiting this to DLC, at least in the future,) their position is that, in some parts of the world, piracy is rampant due to much lower household incomes. That really should not be a surprise to anyone, and I expected that reply. I'm sure we all know exactly what 'parts of the world' they're talking about. But, the problem is, exactly the point N3V made: In many parts of the world, incomes are low. Many people just can't afford a $60 game or even a $20 one on sale, let alone $20 DLC. So, they'll obtain bootleg copies. But, they fail to see that few if any of these are really lost sales, because those folks wouldn't have been able to afford a legit copy in the first place. Not to mention are quite adept software crackers, rendering the entire exercise moot.

Yeah, we've all seen the posters who post with unregistered versions. I don't help them, and most people don't. And, if N3V uses a half-decent serial-number registration system, folks with stolen, cracked or keygen'ed serialz shouldn't be able to access the DLS.

I've also done my share or reporting and removal requests when I find suspected pirated Trainz material. All told, between the value-added service of the DLS and the community activity, the DRM was really an unnecessary step. But, judging by the lack of mention of it in any of the patches, hotfixes, announcements, and so on, it seems likely they thought they could slip this one in under the radar, and it was only after much heated discussion and grilling did any details become public.

Interestingly, they STILL seem to be attempting to deceive purchasers of the NKP DLC of that fact. Go take a look. I'll save you the trouble of finding a direct link:

http://www.simulatorcentral.com/index.php/nkp-high-speed-freight.html

Sure, they mention that you need SP1 to initially download the pack, but do you see ANYWHERE a mention that you need an internet connection, even if only a periodic one, to continue using your purchase once downloaded?

 

[amigacooke]

Interestingly, they STILL seem to be attempting to deceive purchasers of the NKP DLC of that fact. Go take a look. I'll save you the trouble of finding a direct link:

http://www.simulatorcentral.com/index.php/nkp-high-speed-freight.html

Sure, they mention that you need SP1 to initially download the pack, but do you see ANYWHERE a mention that you need an internet connection, even if only a periodic one, to continue using your purchase once downloaded?

On this we most certainly can agree. It should be stated that an internet connection is required to authenticate the DLC.

 

[RRSignal]

On this we most certainly can agree. It should be stated that an internet connection is required to authenticate the DLC.

The kicker is, both public and privately, I've gotten apologies from the folks at N3V about their 'miscommunication' and 'how they could have handled this better', yet here we see they're up to the same old tricks.

 

[amigacooke]

The kicker is, both public and privately, I've gotten apologies from the folks at N3V about their 'miscommunication' and 'how they could have handled this better', yet here we see they're up to the same old tricks.

I'm speculating, but maybe the people you have contact with are not those who have the final decision on these matters? Maybe the bloke with the final say is the one who only turns up on the forums when there's a new product to sell.

 

[RRSignal]

While that's possible, and a valid point, one of the gentlemen stated that I had "raised some points he'd like to discuss with the rest of the team here." Those points are largely what I and others have said here. So, at least taken at face value, these issues should have made their way up the food chain to someone in a decision-making position. If not, it's still a failure on N3V's part to conduct due diligence, as they've been warned about these deceptive tactics multiple times, both public and privately.

 

[nicky9499]

Regarding the necessity for DRM in Trainz...

Trainz is a unique piece of software. It is unlike your average "off the shelf" FPS or RPG where a pirated copy is not any different than a legitimate one. In some cases, a pirated copy is actually better in that the pirate does not have to deal with DRM nonsense that the legit user has because it's been cracked.

Trainz is different; it is unlike Grand Theft Auto, for example. The GTA community is extremely large and fragmented. A person who pirates GTA for the PC can gain unrestricted to hundreds of GTA-centric forums and download sites. There is simply no incentive to make a purchase if the pirate a) doesn't want to or b) cannot afford to.

Yes, there are pirated copies out there. However, as almost everyone here can testify, Trainz is a terrible piece of crap out of the box (relatively speaking). What makes a Trainz experience great is the community and third party content. To be more specific, the Auran forums and the DLS. Trainz is unique because of its concentrated community and third party content depository (the DLS), both of which cannot be accessed without a legitimate copy of Trainz. "No nicky, the pirate can access the Auran forums!" I hear you say. True, but his access is restricted and seriously, how many times have you seen people actively helping out a user with a blank timeline? These 2 factors are very powerful deterrents and encourage the pirate to purchase Trainz.

Piracy is something N3V can easily prevent simply due to the niche nature of Trainz without resorting to DRM. What RRSignal stated in this regard is absolutely true.

Yeah, we've all seen the posters who post with unregistered versions. I don't help them, and most people don't. And, if N3V uses a half-decent serial-number registration system, folks with stolen, cracked or keygen'ed serialz shouldn't be able to access the DLS.

 

[amigacooke]

However, as almost everyone here can testify, Trainz is a terrible piece of crap out of the box (relatively speaking).

No it isn't.

What makes a Trainz experience great is the community and third party content. To be more specific, the Auran forums and the DLS. Trainz is unique because of its concentrated community and third party content depository (the DLS), both of which cannot be accessed without a legitimate copy of Trainz. "No nicky, the pirate can access the Auran forums!" I hear you say. True, but his access is restricted and seriously, how many times have you seen people actively helping out a user with a blank timeline? These 2 factors are very powerful deterrents and encourage the pirate to purchase Trainz.

Piracy is something N3V can easily prevent simply due to the niche nature of Trainz without resorting to DRM.

So rather than having online authentication which would render content unavailable if the company disappeared, N3V should use the community and DLS which are accessed online and would be unavailable if the company disappeared?

I'm confused.

 

[shaneturner12]

It has been proven a few times here that people can have dodgy versions of Trainz,although they normally get caught quickly.

Shane

 

[RRSignal]

The difference is, if N3V did go out of business or decided to stop supporting the PC version, at least without authentication, I'll still be able to run my versions of Trainz and DLC that don't require authentication i.e. pre-SP1.

It's not perfect, but at least the product will WORK. And I'll still have the DLS content I've downloaded so far. Last but not least, the forums will likely still exist in some manner, be it as an archive or on another site like Trainsim.com. Obviously, it's much better, convenient and more efficient that there is an ongoing support system like the forums and ongoing file repository like the DLS, but all of this is a moot point if the game or content can't run.

 

[wkwood]

The difference is, if N3V did go out of business or decided to stop supporting the PC version, at least without authentication, I'll still be able to run my versions of Trainz and DLC that don't require authentication i.e. pre-SP1.

I think the problems would be a bit more severe than that. While I agree that DRM is a bad thing, I can also see a business reason why you want to protect your licensed materials. There's lots of third party payware that doesn't use the DRM being pushed by N3V, so just vote with your wallet; go buy from other vendors who don't buy into this DRM scheme because honestly, I don't see that much compelling DLC that needs protecting from N3V. Why somebody at N3V must have thought this was a priority to be released now for some reason is just weird considering all the other bugs and problems with TS12; maybe we're about to see more or different kinds of DLC available from them? I'm not advocating that they break existing payware either, that's just plain obnoxious.

I don't know, but from what I see in the community there's lots of work-arounds, fixes and other tweaks out there for older versions of Trainz just because Auran/N3V didn't listen so I'd use that as a pattern considering DRM as well and if N3V goes Tango Uniform, I'm sure there'll be some workaround found.

I

 

[mikeaust]

I think RRsignal is right, If N3v disappeared, Trainz would continue in some form because of the community. I for one have a massive amount of assets in storage as most of the older members would have.
Someone like TPR could become the repository as they have done with the versions no longer supported. Creators could still create for the version they want to keep and life would go on.
Let N3v go on and push the PC people out and see how long they last with the fickle gaming generation. The diehard members would keep it going even to the point of sharing the content they have.
cheers,
Mike

 

[CaptEngland]

Just because a game gets canned, or the makers go bust, does not mean that it's the end of the world.

Look at the support out there for MSTS, Freelancer, Transport Tycoon, etc....

Good, old games never die. They just get re-mixed.

Regards.
CaptEngland.