Multi-Path Control v5 Help with setting up please - or suggest an alternative

[davidbird]

Can anybody help with setting up atilabarut's Multi-path Control v5, kuid2:131986:153364:5.
I'm using this as it states in it's details that it is mainly for "clearing the path for a player-controlled train".
I couldn't seem to get it to work on my route, so I tried it on a simple test route, consisting of a main line splitting into 2 sidings, with a headshunt.

It seems to be working when I give the driver a command to just "Drive", but its not working when I manually drive.

Can anybody help with setting up, or suggest an alternative path control rule that will let me manually drive but will set up complex routes for me?

Trainz TS12, build 58414

Thanks

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi davidbird

Do you have the SnC add on installed with the session "Failed at Mallerstang - Drive(1) - 9F Heavy Haul to Widnes" installed? If you do then have a look at the schedule for the Fowler 4F loco as this loco is used to control junctions for the player train. It uses triggers to control the sequence for setting junctions at the correct time. It should be possible to use this technique with one of the Path rules for setting more complex paths.

I have never used the path rule by attilabarut but have made extensive use of the ones by brummfondel (on the DLS) and _mutton_ (built in to TS12). It can be difficult learning how to use them but they are very useful once you get to grips with them. They are both similar in use but the one by brummfondel requires all signals on a path to be named while the one by _mutton_ does not. If you have difficulty with them just let me know and I can go into more detail.

Regards

Brian

 

[davidbird]

Thanks Kennilworth, I've looked at the rules you suggested this afternoon.
The one by mutton seems to set paths, which are then called by a driver command - not what I want for a player-controlled train.
The rule by Brummfondel looks more promising, as it defines paths, which are called by trains hitting triggers. But it requires the Pathtrigger rule, which does not allow specifying which train activates the trigger, and only works with the Autodrive driver command. Again, no use.

I do have S&C, I'll check out how it's done there. It is quite possible, as I used to do it happily in TRS2006 with the SCS2006 rule, but that broke with TS09.

Thanks again.

 

[davidbird]

I've checked my SnC sessions, but I don't have that one! Although the title is familiar...

But even if I did have it, with TS12 I can't "open for edit" the session to see how it's done.

 

[captainkman]

Faled at Mallerstang was one of the sessions on the support site, http://settleandcarlisle.co.uk/

Kieran.

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi again davidbird

As that session is not built in you can look at it without any problem. You don't even have to clone it to view it as it isn't on the DLS.

Just in case you still have problems I'll describe what it does. As you know you can't have AI commands in a player controlled schedule so you place an AI loco in a siding or somewhere that it can't interfere with the route. This loco will never move and the driver commands are used only for path setting for the player train. You place triggers on the route at strategic points which are only activated by the player train. The AI loco has a Wait for Trigger command which is listening for the player train. When that trigger is activated by the player train, the AI train moves on to its next command which will be a path command of some description followed by another Wait for Trigger command and then another path command. The triggers have to be set up in the correct sequence for it all to work correctly but it is very effectively done in the session that I mentioned earlier.

Regards

Brian

 

[davidbird]

Faled at Mallerstang was one of the sessions on the support site, http://settleandcarlisle.co.uk/

Kieran.

Thanks, I knew I'd seen it somewhere!

Hi again davidbird

As that session is not built in you can look at it without any problem. You don't even have to clone it to view it as it isn't on the DLS.

Just in case you still have problems I'll describe what it does. As you know you can't have AI commands in a player controlled schedule so you place an AI loco in a siding or somewhere that it can't interfere with the route. This loco will never move and the driver commands are used only for path setting for the player train. You place triggers on the route at strategic points which are only activated by the player train. The AI loco has a Wait for Trigger command which is listening for the player train. When that trigger is activated by the player train, the AI train moves on to its next command which will be a path command of some description followed by another Wait for Trigger command and then another path command. The triggers have to be set up in the correct sequence for it all to work correctly but it is very effectively done in the session that I mentioned earlier.

Regards

Brian

I think I follow that, by using a not-moving AI train in a siding (so it can still be visually present in the session) I can use that train to set mutton's paths rules... I'm d'loading the Failed at Mallerstang session, I'll check it out.

I had looked at one of the ECML sessions, that uses the method of Check Trigger/Set Junctions rules, but I seem to remember from trying it a while ago that a 2nd Set Junctions rule will steal the path away from the 1st...

Thanks
David

 

[peterwhite]

I do believe, but not exactly certain, that you can set up atilabaruts path control for A1 drivers by using a trigger that looks for an autodrive command and you can set up the same route by setting another trigger to look for a specific loco, and as long as you drive that loco the path will be set as you require.

Regards
Peter

 

[davidbird]

Thanks Brian

I've been playing with the jstrf path rules by Brummfondel this evening, and I think I have got the hang of what's going on - I even managed to get a schedule in there.

I think I'll use the jstrf rule, even though it's not the built-in one, as it's much easier to set up once signals are named, it will cope with diamond crossings using the MX junction function, and AI can be set up to use the same paths.

All I need to consider now is where to put my non-moving train...

Again, many thanks.

David

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi again David

For the non moving train just lay a short length of track behind a hill or forest and put it on that. It doesn't need to be connected to the rest of the route.

I also prefer to use brummfondels rules and commands but the _mutton_ one does have its uses. On the ECML for instance there is a signal at King's Cross just inside the Up Main Gasworks tunnel which isn't named and this renders brummfondels rule unusable for up trains on the original route while the one by _mutton_ will work fine.

The Path Trigger rule by brummfondel is also worth looking at for AI trains as it really simplifies some of the path setting for an AI train. I have a modified ECML route with all signals and junctions re-named and using the Path Trigger rule a path can be set into any platform at King's Cross simply by telling the AI to Autodrive to trackmark xx. When the train hits the trigger it automatically sets the correct path. I'm not as young as I used to be and it isn't unknown for me to select the incorrect path when adding commands so anything that simplifies such things is welcome.

Regards

Brian

 

[davidbird]

I've hit a couple of problems.

1 - Using Bloodnok's VSR MAS/target system works, but the SnC semaphores (still using Bloodnok's script) don't animate. I've found a reference in the archived forum about a couple of lines of modification that overcomes this. Do you have any ideas?

2 - Getting a route to set to an occupied siding to allow a lightengine to couple to its train. Some of my yards have an Arrival line, with manual points into the yard itself, which is no problem, but others have each siding controlled from the box

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi David

With regard to number 1. I have come across this before but it was a year or two since and I can't be sure of how I solved it. Are the signal coronas changing properly when the animation isn't working? As far as I can remember I think that the solution that I found was to place an invisible signal fairly closely either in front or behind the one that wouldn't animate correctly and this caused it to work properly for some reason. Not very prototypical I know but sometimes needs must.

With regard to number 2. I've never had a problem setting a path to an occupied siding so is it a signal that is preventing the light engine coupling to the train? If so there are two driver commands on the DLS by elstoko which allow a signal to be set to an extended state which will allow the loco to pass.

"Set Signal Ahead v2" kuid2:368725:60003:2 does as it says and sets the next signal in front of the train to a state that will allow the loco to pass.

"Set Selected Signal State v4" kuid2:368725:60002:4 does the same thing for a named signal and will also light the calling on lights on the old Auran colour light signals.

They may not work with all signals though so it is trial and error but I have used the second one at King's Cross on the ECML without problem to get locos to back down onto their trains. I think they are designed to be used with bloodnoks script so they should be ok with his latest semaphore signals. Note: the signal may not animate but the loco will still pass it to couple.

Regards

Brian

 

[davidbird]

Hi David

...

With regard to number 2. I've never had a problem setting a path to an occupied siding so is it a signal that is preventing the light engine coupling to the train?

...

Initially the problem was, of course, the consist in the siding was occupying part of the path, as the path went from the start signal to the next "signal", which was the buffers at the end beyond the train. I added "L5 Invisible Signal Permissive", so the path will end before the siding consist, but there appears to be no signal (I used the Permissive invisible signal so AI will pass as well).

Yesterday this didn't work either, today it does...
Problem solved!

Now I can't find what I was reading last night regarding the SnC semaphores, but I do remember your suggestion of a second invisible signal just before the visible one. Will this upset the working of distant signals? Perhaps I could clone a SnC signal and make it invisible-in-driver...
Will investigate

Thanks
David

Edit
Found that post here http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?78110-Brummfondel-s-path-rule-MX-junctions

...
I stopped using both "path rules" because they insist on trying to control the entry signal. If they could force the signal red until the path is cleared, but then switch the signal to Auto, so it can work its own aspect, I would use them again like a shot. The problem with them forcing the signal to a particular aspect is that the wonderful animated semaphores by the SnC team are incompatible with having an aspect forced onto them. They seem to leave the signal arm horizontal (danger) but just turn the lamp green.

If you are using colour light signals, then you won't experience that problem,
...

Hi Chris - Another user made a modification to Brummfondel's command so that the first signal could be set to automatic. It only needed a line or two of editing. If you want the info, please send me your e-mail address so we can discuss this further.

Could you use an invisible signal ahead of the semaphore as the leading signal? That way you would not be forcing the aspect of the semaphore.

Cheers - Trevor

 

[davidbird]

Ok, so now I've another problem. On my test route I set up a dummy loco and assigned driver commands to that to set the route for both my player train and an AI train. Worked great (eventually!), I even managed to get a route to set only when departure time was reached and a shunt was completed.

Now I've introduced the PathTrigger rule and removed the drivercommands from the dummy loco that relate to the AI train. When my player train hits the trigger, it gives me a "Manual control" of the trigger, as there is no destination in its drivercommands. I have to click a button to set the route. I don't want this, but even if I click "ignore" it ignores it for the following AI train as well. I don't want to have to set up a dummy loco for every AI train in my real route, as that is what the PathTrigger rule is for, but I can't put a destination into my player-controlled train.

What's the solution to this?

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi David

The Path Trigger rule works by looking at the trackmark named in the Autopilot driver command and then setting a path accordingly. No Autopilot command - no path setting by the trigger. I have a germ of an idea on how it may be possible to do what you want but I will need to experiment to see if it is viable. I'll get back to you when I've played about with it.

Regards

Brian

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi again David

I've been playing around with my idea and I can get the dummy loco to change the junctions using the Path Trigger rule. Unfortunately there is a problem in that the junctions won't release after the player train has passed. It seems that it has to be the train that activated the Path trigger that has to traverse the path in order for the junctions to be released. So far I haven't been able to come up with anything else at the moment but I'll keep it in mind. Sometimes inspiration comes at the most unlikely times.

Regards

Brian

 

[davidbird]

Thanks Brian

If it means I have to use a dummy loco for both the player and each and every AI train, that's the way I'll do it.

To be honest, I'm thinking about using _mutton_'s rules, even if they are harder to set up, as they don't specify signals as part of paths. This means the signals can stay on automatic control - which should mean the SnC semaphores work as they are meant to. If I can't use brummfondel's PathTrigger rule, but have to use DriverCommands, I may as well use the _mutton_ system - the basic setup of the DriverCommands on the dummy loco will be the same.

Edit: Just tried, yes the SnC semaphores work correctly with the _mutton_ PathRule. It was very satisfying to see the distant arm clear as I approached it...

Edit2: It appears that the Driver Command for setting the path also incorporates the equivalent of the PathTrigger Rule. When adding the Driver Command to a schedule there is the option of setting a path directly or waiting for a trigger before setting the path. Hence AI trains can set their own paths and a dummy is only needed for the player train.

Problem sorted, many thanks!

 

[KenRuof]

Post deleted

 

[davidbird]

Problem with path setting and automatic signals

Well, I've hit a problem.

On trying the "dummy train with driver commands for route setting for a player train" method (maybe it should be called the "Mallerstang Method") on my WIP real layout, I've found a problem.

The layout is

                                        /-----Yard----------\
<---HS-----DS---T2---------CP----HS----/-----HS--------------\---RJHS----------DS-------T1------<

HS= Home Signal, DS=Distant, CP=Catchpoints, RJHS=Right Junction Home Signal, T=Trigger, Down Line only shown.
It's a real location, Bestwood Park Junction, north of Nottingham, as it was in the 1970s/80s, so I don't have any flexibility in the layout and types of signals used.
On my route I'm using the SnC set of signals, the "Sig UQ xxx" series builtin to SnC add-on, and the "Sig AS UQ xx" series d'loaded from the http://www.trainzclassics.co.uk/downloads-content-signals-upperquadrant website.


I've used the _mutton_ pathset rule to set up a path, named "Down Through", obviously this sets a path through both points, through the junction, past all 3 home signals, but leaves all the signals on automatic control. The 2nd set of points was set as the release object. The catchpoints were initially a dummy set, just a short length of rusty track visually placed on top of the main track but not connected to it.

I've set a dummy train to hold the driver commands for a player train, these being
Wait for Trigger - T1-Player train/Set path Down Through/Wait for Trigger T2/Set path

When running the session, everything works great, as the manually-driven train passes T1 and approaches the distant it clears, rounding the corner the RJHome is clear, the Co-Acting home beyond the bridge is clear and around the next corner the starter is also clear.

The problem is this.
As the train clears the path, the starter momentarily switches to Danger, then back to clear.

This is not what I was expecting.
I tried altering the catchpoints to be a real connected set, extending the path to include the catchpoints, with the CP as the path release object, but with no change.

Why does this happen?
What can I do to stop it?

 

[pwjohnson]

Hi David,

If you're planning to use Brummfondel's path rule with semaphores, you might like to take a look at these threads:
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?78110-Brummfondel-s-path-rule-MX-junctions
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?69106-brummfondel-s-path-rule

I looked into this very problem a couple of years ago, and with help from Brisn (Kennilworth) and Trevor (trev999) came up with some rules of thumb to make it all work, which are documented at the end of each of the above threads. It might save you some time!

Good luck!

Peter

Only after posting have I noticed page 2 of this thread - sorry! - so I see you're now using mutton's rule, which I did try but discarded in favour of brummfondel's (can't remember why). Anyway, the above threads may still give some pointers to problems with mutton's rule.