Modelling UK Signaling in the 1950s and 60s

[Tanker46]

Hello Everyone,

It's my first time posting in the General Thread but I wasn't exactly sure where this topic would fit in.

For those who don't frequent the UK Trainz threads, I'm currently working on modelling the entire Southern Region of British Railways in three separate routes that will eventually be merged upon completion into one massive route. I'm currently working on the first part of this project which will cover all of South London and almost all of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway from Brighton to Newhaven. The tracklaying of the route is now 85 percent complete and I am starting the scenery development of the route for it's beta release in the near future.

Currently I have begun installing signals on the main line between London and Brighton and I have noticed through my research material that BR had begun installing Color Aspect Signals in place of the tradition Semaphore Signals.] Below I have provided several photographic examples of BR(S) Aspect Signals along the Brighton Main Line:

My question is this: currently in Trainz do these kinds of signals exist in any capacity or has any content creator made 1950s/1960s Aspect Signals for use on routes in more modern versions of Trainz? It's one of the biggest holes in operation on this route and one of the last boxes I have to tick on the main line. I could really use the wisdom of veteran Trainz users more experienced than myself here.

 

[stagecoach]

You could search for Sig BR (S) and Sig 3A. They are semaphore and light signals.

 

[pfx]

I can't say I've seen any of the Southern approach light signals and the only standard colour light ones I've seen that don't have a rectangular surround only have a rounded top. I think there were only two aspect ones available.

You may well have seen the following link before, https://www.railsigns.uk/info/appsig1.html

 

[Paulsw2]

I think some of the Bloodnok colour light signals had some Southern variants (eg. in terms of the gantries used). But truth to tell, we've not had any new colour light signals in UK Trainz for quite a few years. And none that exploit the new features in TRS19 and 22 (ie. PBR texturing). Perhaps this could be a project for a gifted signal creator?

 

[Tanker46]

I think some of the Bloodnok colour light signals had some Southern variants (eg. in terms of the gantries used). But truth to tell, we've not had any new colour light signals in UK Trainz for quite a few years. And none that exploit the new features in TRS19 and 22 (ie. PBR texturing). Perhaps this could be a project for a gifted signal creator?

After taking a good look Paul, I think that might be exactly what is needed. I've thought about approaching Chrisaw about maybe commissioning some of these, but there are some really odd ones that might not translate well to Trainz.

Those Aspect/Semaphore Hybrids are definitely one of them. I have no idea how those would work in game - let alone the nightmare it would be to script it!

 

[chrisaw]

Sorry I can't help, I've never looked at Trainz colour light signals, and I know nothing about scripting or PBR texturing.
I think the colour lights added to semaphores were usually subsidiary indicators. e.g. calling on, backing, shunt.

Chris.

 

[edh6]

Hybrid colour light/semaphore signals aren't difficult to do, some of the ones I did for the Ffestiniog route have colour light homes with a semaphore distant in the same asset. I can't remember the exact details of scripts/configs I used, but recall it not being particularly difficult.

 

[stovepipe]

What era will your route be?

You may have seen these already, but the SREMG online website has articles from the the Railway Magazine describing the major resignalling scheme between Battersea/Bricklayers Arms and Croydon that ran from 1950 to 1954 over 4 stages. The maps and text imply that colour light signalling already existed at the London end, and all the way to Brighton from Coulsden - the latter being part of the original 1933 electrification scheme. The signals provided for the 1950-54 scheme seem very similar to the original VSR signals by Bloodnok.

Links to the articles-

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/ExtnOfColourLightSignalling.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/BrightonLineResignalling.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/Colour-LightSignallingInTheNorwoodTriangle.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/CompletionOfBrightonLineC-LSignalling.pdf

 

[Tanker46]

What era will your route be?

You may have seen these already, but the SREMG online website has articles from the the Railway Magazine describing the major resignalling scheme between Battersea/Bricklayers Arms and Croydon that ran from 1950 to 1954 over 4 stages. The maps and text imply that colour light signalling already existed at the London end, and all the way to Brighton from Coulsden - the latter being part of the original 1933 electrification scheme. The signals provided for the 1950-54 scheme seem very similar to the original VSR signals by Bloodnok.

Links to the articles-

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/ExtnOfColourLightSignalling.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/BrightonLineResignalling.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/Colour-LightSignallingInTheNorwoodTriangle.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/CompletionOfBrightonLineC-LSignalling.pdf

This... This is a wealth of information! I was just starting to delve into the 1950 Electrification Scheme but I had no idea where to start!

Thank you Stovepipe! I'll take a look at these and download the VSR Signals and return with my findings! This should be a good start for sure!!

 

[lewisner]

There are a number of SR and LSWR bracket gantries available and it would be a matter of finding colour light heads which sit at the same height as the brackets. I will have a look tomorrow to see what I have downloaded. I have experimented a bit to replicate the colour light bracket signals on the ECML at Thirsk with limited success.

 

[Tanker46]

There are a number of SR and LSWR bracket gantries available and it would be a matter of finding colour light heads which sit at the same height as the brackets. I will have a look tomorrow to see what I have downloaded. I have experimented a bit to replicate the colour light bracket signals on the ECML at Thirsk with limited success.

I've looked into them but the problem is that the majority of the signal bracket gantries involved do not exist in Trainz currently and the LSWR ones certainly wouldn't have been present on the Ex-LBSCR Network (if there were any left in useage).

Regardless, it seems that most of the Main Line between Brighton and Newhaven was predominantly still run by Semaphore Signalling up until closure in the 1960s. That certainly makes it a tad bit easier to sort out once I get to it.

I'm still going over Stovepipe's references but it appears there's far more to this than I initially thought. Signals are not my forte as I focus primarily on trackwork and rolling stock, but this dilemma has piqued my interest to fill in the gaps on my knowledge regarding the Southern Region. I can't build a proper route if I am ignorant on an area of it's workings.

 

[PortLineParker]

Hi Tanker,

I agree signalling is a key part of any route and one that you want to get right. One of the main reasons I decided to model the S&D between 1956-1958 is because although the BR(W) had taken over commercial control in 1950, they were yet to take any operational control so the infrastructure and trains themselves were still a joint affair between BR(S) and BR(LM). In 1958, the WR did gain operational control and that was when you started to see more WR stock and infrastructure; one of the more noticeable elements in this case were the signals, which I wanted to avoid. Thankfully, Chris has produced many excellent signals which can be used as doubles for those seen on the S&D, so in addition to the LMS and SR signals you would expect I have also made use of his LNER, NER and GER range as they are the same design.

I'd always encourage others to spend their time on getting the signalling right though; consult signal diagrams where you can and if in doubt always look for photos if modelling somewhere prototypical. A 'near enough' substitution may look the part but you'll be surprised at how quickly it can throw a spanner in the works if you're trying to run trains but the signal is wrong, and it can take ages to try and fix it then!

Best of luck with the project though, I'm looking forward to seeing some more screenshots soon of your latest progress.

Cheers,

PLP

 

[Tanker46]

Hi Tanker,

I agree signalling is a key part of any route and one that you want to get right. One of the main reasons I decided to model the S&D between 1956-1958 is because although the BR(W) had taken over commercial control in 1950, they were yet to take any operational control so the infrastructure and trains themselves were still a joint affair between BR(S) and BR(LM). In 1958, the WR did gain operational control and that was when you started to see more WR stock and infrastructure; one of the more noticeable elements in this case were the signals, which I wanted to avoid. Thankfully, Chris has produced many excellent signals which can be used as doubles for those seen on the S&D, so in addition to the LMS and SR signals you would expect I have also made use of his LNER, NER and GER range as they are the same design.

I'd always encourage others to spend their time on getting the signalling right though; consult signal diagrams where you can and if in doubt always look for photos if modelling somewhere prototypical. A 'near enough' substitution may look the part but you'll be surprised at how quickly it can throw a spanner in the works if you're trying to run trains but the signal is wrong, and it can take ages to try and fix it then!

Best of luck with the project though, I'm looking forward to seeing some more screenshots soon of your latest progress.

Cheers,

PLP

I definitely agree what you are saying Parker.

Signalling London and Brighton is definitely not what I thought it was going to be. It's a nightmare. The hardest part is that I only have photos and crude signal box diagrams to go off and that really makes it difficult to get everything correctly. I've looked countless times for some decent books that might help me figure this out, but to no avail.

From what I have managed to figure out, it seems like the main lines between London and places like Brighton, Bournemouth, Chatham and Dover were Electric Signaled while the secondary and branch lines still relied heavily on Semaphore Signals. Given how a large number of secondary lines are featured on this route, this is a breath of fresh air to me.

South London is definitely going to be the real challenge. Everything was Electric Signals, everything was layered on something else and there were sprawling yards and stations to contend with. A lot of those signals are still unaccounted for and might need quite some time to get right.

Given how much of this is going to be complex by going off of photography, I might want to do the semaphores first to get an idea of what will be needed to complete a greater complex area, yes?

 

[JCitron]

I definitely agree what you are saying Parker.

Signalling London and Brighton is definitely not what I thought it was going to be. It's a nightmare. The hardest part is that I only have photos and crude signal box diagrams to go off and that really makes it difficult to get everything correctly. I've looked countless times for some decent books that might help me figure this out, but to no avail.

From what I have managed to figure out, it seems like the main lines between London and places like Brighton, Bournemouth, Chatham and Dover were Electric Signaled while the secondary and branch lines still relied heavily on Semaphore Signals. Given how a large number of secondary lines are featured on this route, this is a breath of fresh air to me.

South London is definitely going to be the real challenge. Everything was Electric Signals, everything was layered on something else and there were sprawling yards and stations to contend with. A lot of those signals are still unaccounted for and might need quite some time to get right.

Given how much of this is going to be complex by going off of photography, I might want to do the semaphores first to get an idea of what will be needed to complete a greater complex area, yes?

I understand what you are trying to accomplish here. It's an amazing project and I wish you lots of luck with this, but heed this warning with signals and AI. For the most part the signaling will work as expected, but I have found out the very hard way that prototypical signaling doesn't always work as expected with our beloved AI drivers.

We go through the trouble of setting up signals as they should be for specific routes and more importantly for junctions and yards only to find out the AI have fits and do weird things. This occurred for me long before the current bugs in TRS22 and up. In the end, I did some compromising and found the best of both worlds by placing the signals accurately as possible in places where it worked and ended up leaving out or using alternative signals in other locations because no matter what I tried, the AI didn't cooperate.

In the end, you will most likely end up with fewer signals than you saw on the plans because of this.

 

[lewisner]

I definitely agree what you are saying Parker.

Signalling London and Brighton is definitely not what I thought it was going to be. It's a nightmare. The hardest part is that I only have photos and crude signal box diagrams to go off and that really makes it difficult to get everything correctly. I've looked countless times for some decent books that might help me figure this out, but to no avail.

From what I have managed to figure out, it seems like the main lines between London and places like Brighton, Bournemouth, Chatham and Dover were Electric Signaled while the secondary and branch lines still relied heavily on Semaphore Signals. Given how a large number of secondary lines are featured on this route, this is a breath of fresh air to me.

South London is definitely going to be the real challenge. Everything was Electric Signals, everything was layered on something else and there were sprawling yards and stations to contend with. A lot of those signals are still unaccounted for and might need quite some time to get right.

Given how much of this is going to be complex by going off of photography, I might want to do the semaphores first to get an idea of what will be needed to complete a greater complex area, yes?

One thing which doesn't exist in Trainz as far as I know is the Searchlight signals favoured by the LNER notably on the ECML and lines out of Liverpool Street. I've found one American 3 aspect searchlight on a post and I think one gantry mounted one but other than that , nix.

 

[lewisner]

These are a couple of my efforts and they are about the best I can do. It would be possible to replicate the lattice semaphore/colour light signal by attaching colour light heads to invisible track as long as you weren't bothered about the colour lights working.

Thirsk Signals 2 11.4.24 by A1 Northeastern, on Flickr

Thirsk Signals 1 11.4.24 by A1 Northeastern, on Flickr

 

[Driver_Col]

There is a wealth of info here in earlier Posts however, I am going suggest something rather different as a "Plan B" (assuming "Plan A" has problems). If you are going to put considerable time and effort into creating a Route with the intention of sharing it via DLS, then take a step back and think about the signalling. Of course it is wonderful to be able to use prototypical signalling but, if you have to deviate a little, I am pretty sure that the greater proportion of users of your Route will not know the difference. In my own Routes, my main criteria with signalling is that it must work for a large number of AI trains. If I can stay close to prototype design then that's wonderful but, my history is that mods have to be made either because invisible signalling is necessary or, in the context of this thread, exact prototypes are either not available, or they do not work as desired. Creating a Route is a major task, and it would be a shame if it was never completed because a prototypical signal was not available. Food for thought perhaps? Regards. Colin.

 

[Tanker46]

There is a wealth of info here in earlier Posts however, I am going suggest something rather different as a "Plan B" (assuming "Plan A" has problems). If you are going to put considerable time and effort into creating a Route with the intention of sharing it via DLS, then take a step back and think about the signalling. Of course it is wonderful to be able to use prototypical signalling but, if you have to deviate a little, I am pretty sure that the greater proportion of users of your Route will not know the difference. In my own Routes, my main criteria with signalling is that it must work for a large number of AI trains. If I can stay close to prototype design then that's wonderful but, my history is that mods have to be made either because invisible signalling is necessary or, in the context of this thread, exact prototypes are either not available, or they do not work as desired. Creating a Route is a major task, and it would be a shame if it was never completed because a prototypical signal was not available. Food for thought perhaps? Regards. Colin.

Thanks for weighing in on this Colin. Your routes are a major source of inspiration and getting the advice from a veteran route builder is extremely helpful.

I must admit that recently I have come around to this conclusion myself. There are areas of the route where things aren't going to be exactly up to prototypical standard. I'm noticing while developing towns that a lot of buildings and bridges are left unaccounted for or simply don't exist in Trainz at the present moment. Furthermore, the lack of signalling diagrams makes it incredibly difficult to know which signals I would need to accurately line everything up.

I've come to the conclusion that barkng a few exceptions, Nexusdj's outstanding Aspect Signals will be more than appropriate for what I need. I learned from Lewisner that they also have built in feathers which will remove my need to place awkward featherboards. Given the majority of the Aspect Signals are featured along the London to Brighton section, I think that it would be wise to add them in after I finish laying track for that section.

The good news is that the majority of the LBSCR's Southern Network still operated mainly on semaphore signals that weren't changed until after the end of steam. Major locations like Newhaven, Eastbourne, Hastings and Portsmouth all still utilized the semaphore type as their primary signals and that makes things quite a bit easier. Baring a few special signals I nay have to ask Chrisaw about, the majority of the SR Semaphores I need already have been created by him. Now it's just a matter of fitting them all into the right place...

I realize that it has been quite some time since I posted on the SR Project Route - and for good reason - but I have no intention of halting the project due to this minute snag. I've come too far and worked too long on this project for it to never see the light of day. Like Valbridge once told me - "It's a difficult thing to decide when to stop updating and plan a release for people to enjoy." I'm extremely critical of my work and am hesitant to let anyone tinker with it if I am not satisfied with it.

I recently came into the next DEM Map of the Route (due to the grace of our good friend Frank), and now possess everything that compromises the Eastern Section of the LBSCR Map. Eastbourne, Hastings, Turnbridge Wells West and Tonbridge are all a part of the route now which has kept me extremely busy. In addition, I have had a new collaborator join me on the project who is extremely talented at laying track with terrifyingly good accuracy. (I'll be introducing him in the next update. )

However, I don't think this will end up on the DLS. The file size is massive and we haven't even added the Horsham and Portsmouth DEMs yet! If you've seen those Canadian Rockies payware routes on the Trainz Store then you'll get the idea of how big this is going to be.

 

[Driver_Col]

Thanks for weighing in on this Colin. Your routes are a major source of inspiration and getting the advice from a veteran route builder is extremely helpful.

I must admit that recently I have come around to this conclusion myself. There are areas of the route where things aren't going to be exactly up to prototypical standard. I'm noticing while developing towns that a lot of buildings and bridges are left unaccounted for or simply don't exist in Trainz at the present moment. Furthermore, the lack of signalling diagrams makes it incredibly difficult to know which signals I would need to accurately line everything up.

I've come to the conclusion that barkng a few exceptions, Nexusdj's outstanding Aspect Signals will be more than appropriate for what I need. I learned from Lewisner that they also have built in feathers which will remove my need to place awkward featherboards. Given the majority of the Aspect Signals are featured along the London to Brighton section, I think that it would be wise to add them in after I finish laying track for that section.

The good news is that the majority of the LBSCR's Southern Network still operated mainly on semaphore signals that weren't changed until after the end of steam. Major locations like Newhaven, Eastbourne, Hastings and Portsmouth all still utilized the semaphore type as their primary signals and that makes things quite a bit easier. Baring a few special signals I nay have to ask Chrisaw about, the majority of the SR Semaphores I need already have been created by him. Now it's just a matter of fitting them all into the right place...

I realize that it has been quite some time since I posted on the SR Project Route - and for good reason - but I have no intention of halting the project due to this minute snag. I've come too far and worked too long on this project for it to never see the light of day. Like Valbridge once told me - "It's a difficult thing to decide when to stop updating and plan a release for people to enjoy." I'm extremely critical of my work and am hesitant to let anyone tinker with it if I am not satisfied with it.

I recently came into the next DEM Map of the Route (due to the grace of our good friend Frank), and now possess everything that compromises the Eastern Section of the LBSCR Map. Eastbourne, Hastings, Turnbridge Wells West and Tonbridge are all a part of the route now which has kept me extremely busy. In addition, I have had a new collaborator join me on the project who is extremely talented at laying track with terrifyingly good accuracy. (I'll be introducing him in the next update. )

However, I don't think this will end up on the DLS. The file size is massive and we haven't even added the Horsham and Portsmouth DEMs yet! If you've seen those Canadian Rockies payware routes on the Trainz Store then you'll get the idea of how big this is going to be.

Well here's another thought, which really comes down to personal philosophy re creating Routes. This (your in progress Route) is clearly highly detailed and I am sure is a source of pride for you (as it should be). It seems a shame if Route size is going to prevent DLS availability i.e. sad that your work cannot be readily shared over the usual "channels". How about splitting the Route into logical geographical sections and uploading them to DLS? Trainzers who do not have a high-end device can still enjoy your workmanship and, from a personal perspective, those Trainzers will probably love to have (e.g.) 4 wonderful SR based Routes, rather than none! On a similar topic, I have been working on merging a number of my Routes so that LMS, LNER, GWR and SR are represented in a single Route however, that project will most likely never see completion due to my PC struggling with it already!!!

Of course the "bottom line" must always be your perspective and what you want to achieve and, given that you are the one doing the work of creation ..........that is exactly how it should be. Food for thought perhaps? Regards. Colin.

 

[Tanker46]

Well here's another thought, which really comes down to personal philosophy re creating Routes. This (your in progress Route) is clearly highly detailed and I am sure is a source of pride for you (as it should be). It seems a shame if Route size is going to prevent DLS availability i.e. sad that your work cannot be readily shared over the usual "channels". How about splitting the Route into logical geographical sections and uploading them to DLS? Trainzers who do not have a high-end device can still enjoy your workmanship and, from a personal perspective, those Trainzers will probably love to have (e.g.) 4 wonderful SR based Routes, rather than none! On a similar topic, I have been working on merging a number of my Routes so that LMS, LNER, GWR and SR are represented in a single Route however, that project will most likely never see completion due to my PC struggling with it already!!!

Of course the "bottom line" must always be your perspective and what you want to achieve and, given that you are the one doing the work of creation ..........that is exactly how it should be. Food for thought perhaps? Regards. Colin.

I think I get what you're driving at Colin.

I've honestly thought about separating the route several times but I don't know how I want to divide it up until I've finished it. There are eventually going to be three massive DEM Routes that represent each region of the Southern Network based on their Pre-Grouping predecessors. (LBSCR, SECR and LSWR respectively). Phase 1 is going to cover the entire LBSCR Network as it was in the 50s, along with London and it's various terminals.

I've entertained the idea of separating several sections to serve as independent routes on the DLS. Turnbridge Wells West, the Oxted Line and the entire South London sector are all excellent candidates for this. The Bluebell is also considered, but I have much bigger plans for that branchline if I decide to go through with it.

At this point in time though, I want to release the route as a whole and let people decide which parts they want to work with individually based on their pc capabilities. In order to get the most out of this project, I invested in an extremely high spec desktop for the creation of this route, but I am aware that the majority of the UK Trainz users don't have the same specs as mine. I guess it was always intended to be split apart based on preferences.

As it stands, we should be done with the Eastern Section of the LBSCR Map by Christmas, but I want to finish the Western Section to Portsmouth before I release it for beta testing. The leg northwards to London is going to need a complete overhaul, so I will probably exclude it from the initial beta at the moment. Ideally, the Western Section will be finished by Summer and the Northern Section done by Winter 2025.

In addition, Barney and I have been working on a large number of new Southern Engines and Rolling Stock. Hopefully we will have that available for you guys to enjoy as well!

Rest assured, once the Beta is ready for testing, you lads at the TCWW will get the first crack at it!