UP is the largest class 1 railroad in America. However it has a disproportionately high amount of accidents compared to the other large class 1 railroads such as BNSF, CSX and NS. They just have a poor safety record.
Metrolink Train Crash
- Thread starter Magicland
- Start date
UP is the largest class 1 railroad in America. However it has a disproportionately high amount of accidents compared to the other large class 1 railroads such as BNSF, CSX and NS. They just have a poor safety record.
brickbuilder711
yard yobs
I would agree.
Last edited:
braintrainz
New member
I never bought into the who cell phone thing; Personally I think its rubbish. Its not like the engineer or conductor were new to metro link, these guys know the rails their working on. If im driving down a road I take everyday, its not like im going to suddenly miss a traffic light or exit because of a text and or phone call , I know its their and will be looking out for it even with phone in hand (not saying that i do it to begin with but i think you get the point im making here) . And to miss 3 different signals over a distance??? some thing isnt adding up here.
Last edited:
jadebullet
might be back?
Oh God. What could honestly constitute the "best youtube video" that has something to do with such a horrible tragedy.
A couple of thoughts.
Like Magicland I did think initially that the Union Pacific train would be at fault. Freight crews work very irregular hours and are more prone to fatigue than commuter train crews who work regular daylight hours. If I have to have an inclination on which crews have more of a risk of being inattentive it theoretically is more possible for freight crews than passenger crews ala crew fatigue issues.
Balancing out the equation is what is called borrowing from the airlines "cockpit complacency" Commuter train crews do the same runs the same way all the time. The repetitive nature of the work can cause habits to form. For example when stopped at a station and the train is finished loading and unloading the conductor presses a buzzer two time signaling to the engineer to proceed. At most stations this is not a problem you get your two beeps and start the train up. What happens when at the end of the station you have an "interlocking"? This is the situation at Mayfair on Metra's Milwaukee District North Line. Just North of the Station the old CNW Harvard Line Crosses the Milwaukee District North Line. The absolute signal protecting this grade level crossing of two railroads is right at the end of the Northbound Platform. The Locomotive when making the station stop at Mayfair heading to Fox Lake is usually 1/2 to 1 car length from the signal. Let us say that for 30 days in a row the engineer has the signal at Mayfair on his run. He gets his two beeps and takes off. What happens on the one day when the Harvard train is late? The engineer gets his two beeps what happens? In most cases the engineer is going to remember that stop signal at Mayfair but it should not be a great stretch of the imagination to understand the vulnerablity of this situation for error. That the driver could have a habit of taking off without thinking on two beeps is a possibility.
Commuter trains have been involved in 2 other serious accidents where they blew signals.
In Maryland when a Marc train blew a signal and collided with the Capitol Limited.
And NJ Transit had an accident within a month of this one on the Hoboken District.
Positive Train Control.
ATP - Automatic Train Stop. This system requires a receiver on the engine and a transmitter on the wayside signals. It has been in use since at least the 1930s. ATP will stop a train after it goes by a red signal not before that. What the system basically does is compare the trains speed with the permissible speed for that signal indication if the speed of the train exceeds permissible speed it stops the train. For example if a train goes by an approach signal that mandates a maximum speed of 40 mph and the train is doing 45mph ATP will stop it.
To stop a train from going by a red signal requires cab signals on the controlling locomotive. This system knows what kind of signal the train has at all times and knows what the next signal the train is going to have. If the speed of the train is such that the train could not comply with the next signal it stops the train.
Both systems above operate on the concept that the railroad has some sort of signal system.
For information:
Metro North Commuter Railroad is cab signalled and has Positive Train Control. So does NJ Transit and so does the Northeast Corridor.
What about track that is non signalled. When the NTSB talks about Positive Train Control they are also referring to applying this scenerio to dark territory non-signalled track. The methodology for this would be to load the trains movement authorities Form D under Norac and Track Warrant Control for GCOR into the Locomotives computer and than use GPS to verify the trains location and stop it if it looks like it will overrun the limits the train has for authority.
GPS- Global Positioning System has been questioned heavily by the US railroad industry. The standard measurement for a train fouling a track at a switch or turnout is 200 feet. Maintenance people are considered fouling if they are within 4 1/2 feet from the centerline of any track. The US railroad industry has had questions about whether GPS is accurate enough to be depended on to place a train on the right track when two tracks are adjacent to each other. In other words at 201 feet from a switch you are in the clear and at 195 feet you are fouling and can be struck is GPS this accurate?
The bottom line. Different train control systems developed in the United States by different companies at different points in time are not compatible with each other. For example an engine equipped with 1940s ATP technology is not good enough to operate on the Northeast Corridor. In order for Positive Train Control to become standard in America a single system will have to be adopted and all locomotives and cabs will have to be equipped with that technology. Neither the AAR nor the FRA, Association of American Railroads, Federal Railroad Administration have adopted a single system for Postive Train Control. GPS which is available to the public at this point in time I understand is accurate to withing 1 centimeter. If this is in fact the case than it is now accurate enough to use for Positive Train Control this was not the case 5 years ago.
I hope the above answers some fundemental questions.
Like Magicland I did think initially that the Union Pacific train would be at fault. Freight crews work very irregular hours and are more prone to fatigue than commuter train crews who work regular daylight hours. If I have to have an inclination on which crews have more of a risk of being inattentive it theoretically is more possible for freight crews than passenger crews ala crew fatigue issues.
Balancing out the equation is what is called borrowing from the airlines "cockpit complacency" Commuter train crews do the same runs the same way all the time. The repetitive nature of the work can cause habits to form. For example when stopped at a station and the train is finished loading and unloading the conductor presses a buzzer two time signaling to the engineer to proceed. At most stations this is not a problem you get your two beeps and start the train up. What happens when at the end of the station you have an "interlocking"? This is the situation at Mayfair on Metra's Milwaukee District North Line. Just North of the Station the old CNW Harvard Line Crosses the Milwaukee District North Line. The absolute signal protecting this grade level crossing of two railroads is right at the end of the Northbound Platform. The Locomotive when making the station stop at Mayfair heading to Fox Lake is usually 1/2 to 1 car length from the signal. Let us say that for 30 days in a row the engineer has the signal at Mayfair on his run. He gets his two beeps and takes off. What happens on the one day when the Harvard train is late? The engineer gets his two beeps what happens? In most cases the engineer is going to remember that stop signal at Mayfair but it should not be a great stretch of the imagination to understand the vulnerablity of this situation for error. That the driver could have a habit of taking off without thinking on two beeps is a possibility.
Commuter trains have been involved in 2 other serious accidents where they blew signals.
In Maryland when a Marc train blew a signal and collided with the Capitol Limited.
And NJ Transit had an accident within a month of this one on the Hoboken District.
Positive Train Control.
ATP - Automatic Train Stop. This system requires a receiver on the engine and a transmitter on the wayside signals. It has been in use since at least the 1930s. ATP will stop a train after it goes by a red signal not before that. What the system basically does is compare the trains speed with the permissible speed for that signal indication if the speed of the train exceeds permissible speed it stops the train. For example if a train goes by an approach signal that mandates a maximum speed of 40 mph and the train is doing 45mph ATP will stop it.
To stop a train from going by a red signal requires cab signals on the controlling locomotive. This system knows what kind of signal the train has at all times and knows what the next signal the train is going to have. If the speed of the train is such that the train could not comply with the next signal it stops the train.
Both systems above operate on the concept that the railroad has some sort of signal system.
For information:
Metro North Commuter Railroad is cab signalled and has Positive Train Control. So does NJ Transit and so does the Northeast Corridor.
What about track that is non signalled. When the NTSB talks about Positive Train Control they are also referring to applying this scenerio to dark territory non-signalled track. The methodology for this would be to load the trains movement authorities Form D under Norac and Track Warrant Control for GCOR into the Locomotives computer and than use GPS to verify the trains location and stop it if it looks like it will overrun the limits the train has for authority.
GPS- Global Positioning System has been questioned heavily by the US railroad industry. The standard measurement for a train fouling a track at a switch or turnout is 200 feet. Maintenance people are considered fouling if they are within 4 1/2 feet from the centerline of any track. The US railroad industry has had questions about whether GPS is accurate enough to be depended on to place a train on the right track when two tracks are adjacent to each other. In other words at 201 feet from a switch you are in the clear and at 195 feet you are fouling and can be struck is GPS this accurate?
The bottom line. Different train control systems developed in the United States by different companies at different points in time are not compatible with each other. For example an engine equipped with 1940s ATP technology is not good enough to operate on the Northeast Corridor. In order for Positive Train Control to become standard in America a single system will have to be adopted and all locomotives and cabs will have to be equipped with that technology. Neither the AAR nor the FRA, Association of American Railroads, Federal Railroad Administration have adopted a single system for Postive Train Control. GPS which is available to the public at this point in time I understand is accurate to withing 1 centimeter. If this is in fact the case than it is now accurate enough to use for Positive Train Control this was not the case 5 years ago.
I hope the above answers some fundemental questions.
From what it sounds like now, the train would have to have blown several signals, so perhaps something a little more than the engineer texting to foamers was involved. Why Metrolink rushed to hang this on the dead engineer before a full investigation by the NTSB was concluded is really looking fishy. Is their legal liability decreased if he just ran the signals rather than a combination of "pilot error" AND mechanical malfunction?
Oh, and folks, it's OK to speculate here, this is a forum, it's not a court of law
Oh, and folks, it's OK to speculate here, this is a forum, it's not a court of law
i agree with you.
you know what?
i think that the phone thing in cars law should be applied to trains too after this wreck!
Iced8383
Follow the news much? No; I didn't either at that age.
jadebullet
might be back?
Iced, I've been quiet about this for a while, but seeing how you are 21 now, I think it's time that we had the talk.
Your paragraph structure is giving my brain headaches. There is no reason to start a new paragraph just for one sentence.
Anyway back to the topic at hand. I think that if the cellphones had a role to play in the accident, they had a small role. The fact that the train passed more than one red signal is showing something more than a minor distraction like a cellphone. (its minor enough that it normally doesn't cause distraction to miss several signals)
Now, I don't have much knowlege about passenger services, just excursion trains, but one cell phone call would probably only distract one person. Now, don't trains have more than just an engineer. Just wondering. I feel sorry for everyone involved.
Your paragraph structure is giving my brain headaches. There is no reason to start a new paragraph just for one sentence.
Anyway back to the topic at hand. I think that if the cellphones had a role to play in the accident, they had a small role. The fact that the train passed more than one red signal is showing something more than a minor distraction like a cellphone. (its minor enough that it normally doesn't cause distraction to miss several signals)
Now, I don't have much knowlege about passenger services, just excursion trains, but one cell phone call would probably only distract one person. Now, don't trains have more than just an engineer. Just wondering. I feel sorry for everyone involved.
Snip
Yes they do have a conductor however he/she rides in the passenger car/cab car. He was in the last car. The flashing yellow was called out to the conductor, the NTSB has that on tape, but the next yellow and the red were not called out. Also the speed limit even for passenger trains in this area is not 80MPH, so why was the train still doing 40+MPH when he was supposed to at least be at half speed on a flashing yellow. Not to mention the fact that the Pomona dispatcher was trying to reach the engineer after the warning that they had passed a red was set off at the dispatcher office. Why didn't the conductor pull the emergency brake in the passenger car/cab car as he is supposed to do in a situation like this, when lights are not called out and there is no reduction in speed. He has to know the line just as well as the engineer.
As far as the engineer I believe that he was incapacitated like in a heart attack, stroke or even a glucose low if he was diabetic as some news agency's have reported.
A lot of unanswered questions.
Yes they do have a conductor however he/she rides in the passenger car/cab car. He was in the last car. The flashing yellow was called out to the conductor, the NTSB has that on tape, but the next yellow and the red were not called out. Also the speed limit even for passenger trains in this area is not 80MPH, so why was the train still doing 40+MPH when he was supposed to at least be at half speed on a flashing yellow. Not to mention the fact that the Pomona dispatcher was trying to reach the engineer after the warning that they had passed a red was set off at the dispatcher office. Why didn't the conductor pull the emergency brake in the passenger car/cab car as he is supposed to do in a situation like this, when lights are not called out and there is no reduction in speed. He has to know the line just as well as the engineer.
As far as the engineer I believe that he was incapacitated like in a heart attack, stroke or even a glucose low if he was diabetic as some news agency's have reported.
A lot of unanswered questions.
jeffmorris
Active member
I found out from the newspaper that the Metrolink train operator was texting on his cell phone, causing him to run red signal and crash into the freight train.
jeffmorris
Active member
I would be very happy if the government shuts down cell phone services because people ignore laws banning use of cell phones while driving/operating vehicles/machines.
Measure_Twice
New member
It's many months later .. as I reflect
As a Telephone Co lineman, I've worked that right-of-way many times. Oft times I'd watch the freights pass by on the curve and minutes later, the AMTRAK whizzing northwest under Topanga Bridge and through the tunnel about 1/2 mile west.
Reflecting on those times, I often though that it's time for a new tunnel. AMTRAK popularity on the coastal train was increasing as were the commuter short hauls, certainly warranting a new crossing under the Santa Susana Range. This could only increase ridership as increased track usage allows.
Strangely, I was back in L.A. (I live east of Phoenix now) that sad day the trains crashed and reflected on those earlier thoughts.
It now appears the engineer was TEXTING and blew through a VERY familiar landmark as the signal was.
Godspeed to all the relatives and friends (many my neighbors in Simi Valley) of the dead and gone. May the victims rest in peace.
TEXTING?
Measure_Twice (lay track once)
As a Telephone Co lineman, I've worked that right-of-way many times. Oft times I'd watch the freights pass by on the curve and minutes later, the AMTRAK whizzing northwest under Topanga Bridge and through the tunnel about 1/2 mile west.
Reflecting on those times, I often though that it's time for a new tunnel. AMTRAK popularity on the coastal train was increasing as were the commuter short hauls, certainly warranting a new crossing under the Santa Susana Range. This could only increase ridership as increased track usage allows.
Strangely, I was back in L.A. (I live east of Phoenix now) that sad day the trains crashed and reflected on those earlier thoughts.
It now appears the engineer was TEXTING and blew through a VERY familiar landmark as the signal was.
Godspeed to all the relatives and friends (many my neighbors in Simi Valley) of the dead and gone. May the victims rest in peace.
TEXTING?
Measure_Twice (lay track once)
Last edited:
I heard about that accident involving a union pacific freight train and I agree with all of you on this and everybody should know that using a cell phone while driving any vehicle including trains,cars,trucks and buses is illegal unless you are out on break but other than that,other than that keep it in your pocket because there is no need to text someone then have the boss you are working for yell at you,let this deadly incident be a lesson for anyone who decides to text and risk several lives and then how are you going to keep your job after that?that is something that should be thought about!