I've Wanted to Say This For a While, So I'm Going To Get It Out Now

[captainkman]

Hi everyone,

Lately I have been helping newcomers to this wonderful simulator via Private Messaging here on the Forums and on YouTube as well as Skype, where video calls are possible. Something I've noticed is that those people, who are good people and i won't be naming them, always ask me if they have one simple question.

This has been bugging me a bit lately. I get questions such as 'How do I made a train look like its wheels are sliding?' or 'I have some missing dependencies'. I have no problem with most questions being asked but these kinds of questions do bug me. Why?

They aren't willing to give something a go themselves. I find myself screaming to myself 'Just screw around until it does what you want! The CLONE feature is there for a reason and so is the DELETE feature!' or 'USE GOOGLE!'.

When I started using Trainz in 2007, I loved it and wanted to find out how to make my own stuff. So I read the Wiki frequently and looked at other assets, but most importantly, I experimented. Want to change an industry to use a different product? Clone it, then see how it and others are set up and modify. If it doesn't owrk, read Content Manager's error closely and try to figure it out. Then, when it works, enjoy the new asset! I didn't go to the Forums saying 'I tried this but i cannot get it to work' unless I'd spent a good hour trying to figure it out.

Why newbies these days don't just give stuff a go is beyond me.

I will continue to help newbies as much as I can, because I do get satisfaction out of it. Once, someone called me 'A f**king Trainz god' after I helped them fix a piece of content that was faulty.

In short, I encourage all to clone stuff and play around with it for your own use and then come to someone if you absolutely cannot figure it out after extensive research and experimentation.

I've been wanting to get this off my chest for a while.

Thanks for reading.

Kieran. (The helpful Aussie who likes British trains)

 

[dragonharh]

I got 5 words to sat about newbies "You Do It For Me" welcome to my would I like to say luren how to do it your self frist but not these days thay wont an anser right now and you to do all the work for them. I got news for them "aint gonna happen".

I no longer help here its a wast of time trying I leave it to the pros thats just how I feel about helpping.

 

[JCitron]

Kieran,

This is a big part of customer and tech support. It's the thank less task of just helping people for the sake of helping. I know because I did it for a living for close to 30 years as a technician and then later in IT and IT support, and in between as a customer administrator. The bad part about doing this for a job is you can't tell people to go away because you're not in the mood to be nice. You have to be nice day in and day out no matter how sick or tired you are. The fact that you are making people feel good is a reward in its self, and given that you have no mention of remittance anywhere you are getting your payment as stated. Free. Perhaps you could amend your terms to read. You have n-number of free questions then after that there is a payment or donation of x-dollars.

Now having said this... I too still help new folks even though I am now retired all the time, not in Trainz as much, but in the real life computer world. In many cases I want to get out a rubber chicken and smack them for asking the same questions. If they become too much of bug, I tell them that the best way to learn is to do it themselves so that in case I'm not around anymore they can be self sufficient. I noticed that with some people that the more you help them, the more they want the help, rather than trying them selves. I think a lot of this has to do with self confidence doing something new, and then I tell them basically to bugger off in a nice way.

Another Trainz user and I are working on some Trainz documentation. This is for the basic stuff like track laying, fixing content, driving, etc. The stuff that gets asked over and over not just in the forums, but probably asked to you all the time as well. When the tutorials will be ready? I don't have a clue. Hopefully at some point you can then refer the new folks to the tutorials for the basic stuff and take the burden off your shoulders.

John

 

[madncan52]

Kieran, I don't know how old you are, and you are wonderful for putting yourself out there to help, but I am 60 and will tell you what I see. These children today get a medal for participating, not for winning (cause winning is evil), just for showing up. Nobody fails cause everything is done for them. We can't "hurt" their self-esteem by announcing winners and losers. So, they have not been taught to do anything for themselves. They don't know how to compete, achieve or excel. So they come here, saying " fix it for me". I learned the same way you did. Early on, I misread some comments as snarky and took offense. I now understand what they were trying to say. Need to do something....there's a way.....figure it out. Try, fail, then ask for help. Sorry for going on and being preachy but I am frightened to think that some of these people will be running things in a few years. All the more reason to move to our land in the wood and hills of southern Ohio and stay away from society. Of course I will have my comp and Trainz....lol
Mark

 

[AntonyVW]

As an ex-teacher I spent a lot of my time helping others because I chose to. It was rewarding when a child first learned to read or write their name for the first time. That took a lot of patience as children move at different paces to each other. Ive also worked on IT support teams and had to answer the silly questions that come up there, like "it says to press any other key to continue, wheres the any other key?" And yes I have been asked that one. Ive also had to correct people who are on support teams who think they know what they are talking about. Particularly when they try to tell you something is not wrong when it clearly is. I still consider myself a newbee here though I am now answering questions where I can, but I guess I might be one of those that ask them dumb questions. So for all your effort -and the efforts of the good folk on here like you - who are always there with an answer, Id just like to say a very BIG thank you.

 

[uracco]

madncan52
(begin rant) I disagree totally with what you just said, I am 13 and am very offended by your post. That maybe how it is over in the US, but here in the UK we are encouraged to compete, achieve and excel. I am disgusted at how you feel frightened that we will be running things in a few years. I hope you take off your rose tinted spectacles and actually visit a school. (end rant)
dragonharh
Please don't call people noobs, you were once one trying to learn how things work. You cant just expect these people to know these things instantly. I have been here 2-3 years now and I am still learning things. I am surprised people still want learn things going by your attitude.

 

[jlp1551]

uracco---point taken, and I'm not speaking for madncan52, but I do believe he is talking from the vantage point here in the good ole USA. In my career, I've seen exactly what he is talking about! Sometimes ya wonder if some of these kids have just an iota of common sense. But, maybe that is what we get as a society where parents do so much for their children, things like going to a job interview with their kid and getting upset when they don't get the job and call the company and complain about it to them. Some of these kids just don't seem to have the common sense the good Lord gave a gnat!
I know that some times I jump the gun and ask for help before I have tried to do it myself. Sometimes I'm worried about screwing things up and not being able to recover from it but, mostly it is just trying to save time and get it done now! There are plenty of ways to not completely screw things up, just had to open the old eyes and figure them out!
You seem to be the exception to MOST of these kids growing up these days that don't have a clue. Use your mind, think, ask good thought out questions when you must.
Good luck, the world is going to need all the help it can get for some of these kids!

 

[johnwhelan]

In some ways its a problem and in someways it isn't.

We still don't have any user friendly documentation, we have a number of tutorials aimed at different levels, we have a couple of wikis again aimed at different levels and both need cleaning up sometimes as Trainz evolves. Getting people to think for themselves rather than be independent is a problem, many children these days get dropped into organised activities and don't even have to find their way there or home, they're dropped off and picked up.

In what way is isn't it a problem, well its the bread and butter of the forum. The big problem is getting people to ask the question in the forum rather than in a PM.

Cheerio John

 

[uracco]

I must admit you have a good point. I think the problem is their parents are too soft, not saying my parents are harsh as they are 2 of the loveliest people I know, but my parents make me do things independently. That way, you are prepared for the big bad world but I was annoyed about the madncan put it. We're no all bad.

 

[shaneturner12]

Don't forget those who also do it in the blogs, although I have found that a polite push in the direction of the forums normally helps.

Shane

 

[captainkman]

Hi everyone, and thanks for the replies!

One thing I have done that helps some do stuff for themselves is place a link on my YouTube page to the 'Beginners' Guide To Trainz', written by our very own sniper297.

There was a 2006 version of it somewhere but I cannot find it, and I'd like to have another look at it to see if it would be useful as well.

I also made the 'Fixing Common Trainz Errors' series of videos as a tutorial to link others to if they had a problem that I covered in a tutorial.

For those that don't know my age, I recently turned 16.

@John C. I have no intention of making people pay me to give them information that is freely available elsewhere. although it would encourage them to do their research.
Those tutorials sound good. Is there any way I could help? Feel free to use my Fixing Common Trainz Errors videos.

@Shane T. Your tutorials have become a valuable resource to me as a LOT of people come to me with the multicolour texture issue. I hope you don't mind of I refer people to you when they ask a technical question that I can't answer.

One of my problems is that I have Aspergers Syndrome and aim to please people, so I find it really hard to tell others to do some research on the Wiki or use Google to try and find their missing dependencies, because I don't want to be rude.

Thank you for the opinions and active participation.

Kieran.

 

[dragonharh]

dragonharh
Please don't call people noobs, you were once one trying to learn how things work. You cant just expect these people to know these things instantly. I have been here 2-3 years now and I am still learning things. I am surprised people still want learn things going by your attitude.

Don't talk it the wrong way I Not trying to be rude or anything and I know all about asking for help I been are round are for too long not to know that.
That's why I deal with any problems I have on my own first for asking for help I reader avoid posting if it can be helped I have good reason to be the way I am here if you wore in my shose how would you feel ?

 

[H222]

I completely agree with Madcan. Apparently I'm in one of the last few large age-groups who still try to win. There's recently been a push to stop keeping score at local football matches (Aussie Rules, not NFL or rugby) so that no one is upset. Why?! Then they have nothing to fight for, or to play for. It'd be pointless (and scoreless, if you'll pardon the pun) and would ruin Australian sporting and Australian winning culture. I hate losing, so I strive to get better in everything I do (except for maybe accounting. I just hate accounting)

By the way, I'm 15, nearly 16

Jamie

 

[xcrossi]

I'm surprised that no one quotes that old proverb from 1885.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Gerry

 

[kabbie1882]

First time poster, but I have read a lot of the post on this forum.

What I have found is that "newbies" ask questions because they just don't know the answer. They come to a forum such as this to find answers. They believe that there may be a wealth of knowledge on this forum.

That being said, I am surprised at the lack of civility that I have seen in this forum. Things such as telling people that they should just work it out for themselves or that they should "Google it" is rude and very unhelpful. You would think that with all the experience in this forum there would be a lot less "fix it yourself" type post.

I just read a thread where someone was asking for help about editing in explorer, whatever that is' and was pounced on in the first reply. How is that constructive? How is that even civil?

I know it gets tiring answering the same questions over and over again. If you are tired of answer those questions, why don't you just NOT answer them and let someone who cares to help do it?

I personally have a few question, but I have already learned my lesson and will not ask them on this forum. I will try to find the answer myself or will just not get an answer.

If you answer "Bob's" question today, he can answer "Tom's" question tomorrow.

P.S. I am a 42 year old Disabled Veteran, I know how to find answers for myself or work most things out on my own, but I still have questions from time to time.

 

[shaneturner12]

I've got no problem with you referring people to me who have technical issues, as 95% of the time either one of my tutorials will fix it, or I can personally sort it in a forum post. The other 5% sometimes involves remote support to solve a problem.

Shane

 

[Bill69]

I have been using Trainz ever since Trainz 1.3 came out and have learned most things by trial and error. I am now 77 and retired but when I was working I used to pride myself in being able to fix any mechanical device so long as I was allowed to dismantle it myself to see how it should to work. The same thing applies in Trainz, look up Wiki or an older CCG to compare what is different in the item that doesn't work and usually you can find the problem. I used to be on the forums much more than I am now simply because I am fed up with users asking the same questions over and over again when a simple search of the forums or Wiki or Google would find the answer. At the moment I do have two questions that I cannot find an answer to but I am still looking.

To me the main problem with youngsters is they would far rather get someone to tell them the answer now, rather than doing their own research.

Bill69

 

[captainkman]

@Gerry (xcrossi): I was surprised that it wasn't in one of the first replies. Rather than fixing something for someone (by giving them my version of the config - not the whole asset so as to not breach copyright), I tell them how to do it themselves and make video tutorials showing what to do in the hope that others will be able to adapt my method to fixing their own items, as not all are built in the same way.

@kabbie1882: I think a contributing factor is that while there is a wealth of information here, people can't be bothered actually doing a search to try and find it, which is why we get a lot of threads on the same issue and also why some requests for help are turned down.

I can't turn down most of the people who ask me questions because they do so in Skype or via the iTrainz chat messaging system, or via private message, where i can't leave the question for someone else as I'm the only one who will see it.

Having questions is not a problem, but not bothering to do any research or experimentation sometimes can be. I am not accusing you of this, of course. It's a generalisation. In fact, I'd be happy to hear and help you find answers to your questions here if you cannot find a solution yourself, especially since I know you've tried and I understand that many things are difficult even for experienced users.

@Shane: Thanks. Your tutorials do help as I can just say 'Here, read this helpful tutorial' and they follow it and usually manage to get it working based on your instructions.

@Bill: Trial-and-error was the way I did things with TC3 and TRS2006 back in around '07/'08. I agree that most young people do want an immediate answer.

To everyone: If someone comes to me with a question that I know has been asked and answered many times before, I'll tell them my trick for searching for only forum results using Google and if they still can't find an answer I have a look for an answer. I do try to be polite but I know that I have sometimes been unkind to some newcomers.

Keep those replies flooding in! :wave:

Kieran. (At my computer using my new Matchbox locomotive mouse cursor)

 

[dragonharh]

I'm surprised that no one quotes that old proverb from 1885.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Gerry

So true thats not how it is in this day and age.

My prolbem is every time I have an question or post some one has to ripping it apart simply because they can't understand my spelling and its become a real pain in the rear and they wonder why I get mad and I end up trying to explain it to them over and over but thay only wont to hare what thay think is the prolbem and compley avoid the question its self and ignore me every time. then they ( meaning everyone ) wonder why I don't build my grate models like I use to. Why do you think? I'm sick of how ever one treats throws who have a weakness like crap all because thay don't wont to try and understand the posters questions.
Not everyone dose this there are some friendly guys on this forum like throws of you who help out others I use to help lintel I got pushed off to the side line useless trash I can understand how hard it is for a new player to trainz just trying to luren the game and ask an question only to get A: Ignored or B: treated like crap I seen this happen over the years. I don't help because just reader not have an another FW to deal with.
In Short I'm aether Ignored or abused by spelling attacks and it's furstading as hack.

But It some one has an question about my models/routes I will help them out to the bust of my wisdom how ever they have to come to me them self's and ask me thats why I set up an help forum on my website.
On forums its a excursions grown for thows who just trying to ask an question but don't know how to do it at ever ones high standers.
hope this clears up a few more things.
I'm only a custom modeler who can build but can't talk on this forum my bark is worse then my bite.
It's nice to see someone kind and willing to help out throws in need.
The new guy also needs to understand not ever question has an easy answer and the follows here have lives of there own and my not answer your question right away or it gets barryed in the moution of new posts tip: Don't give up so easey you'll get an answer sooner or latter its just about wend that will be.

 

[H222]

But since they can't understand your spelling, how do you expect them to answer you?

Jamie