I Absolutley Hate Speed Trees!

[Beattie]

It goes to show you that some people can enjoy the program.

I think Trainzers are really Goldielox in disguise...

Trainz is too slow. Trainz is too fast. There are too many Speed Trees.

John

If I every hear a complain that trainz is to fast and how to slow it down that will be a shocker. But theres a first time for everything I guess.

 

[mrscsi]

If I every hear a complain that trainz is to fast and how to slow it down that will be a shocker. But theres a first time for everything I guess.

Well actually now that you mention it, Marias Pass on 2009 frame rates are way too high and you can limit it by adding the -frame rate = in your Trainzoptions.txt file:hehe:

 

[sniper297]

http://www.humyo.com/FChMvwQ/treetestroutes.zip?a=1MOI53H-1p4

 

[falcon500]

N3V reps say we're commited to speedtrees, so doesn't really matter what we the paying customers say or think. Looks like the old saying "the customer is always right" is quite wrong in this case. From N3v's point of view they have decided that's what they want, and us pointing out the many faults of built in speedtrees seems to have no sway with them. When I got TRS2010 I sent private messages to both windtlkr and zec murphy pointing out that most of the speedtrees were very unrealistic and some well out of scale, asking would any of these faults be corrected in an update. Got no reply from either. The Australian trees are particularly bad, in 2010 these were just birch,pine and other trees with new bark with "gum leaves" the size of banana leves stuck on. A little better in TS12 at first sight, still with huge leaves. Do not work very well in seasons as some almost lose all their leaves and have gauzy look. Often wonder who makes this stuff, surely somone who knows little about real trees. Does anyone at N3V have a good look at this stuff before its passed? If so they must be easily satisfied. As to frame rates, running similar trains on similar routes in TS12 and RailSim, TS12 fare very badly in comparison. The only reason I stay with TRS is that I can make my own content, however given N3V's attitudes it does not invite any further custom.

 

[paulhobbs]

N3V reps say we're commited to speedtrees, so doesn't really matter what we the paying customers say or think.

Actually the suggestion to use SpeedTrees did come from a paying customer. Remember to be careful what you wish for, it might come true.

Paul

 

[Dep]

It's funny you mention that, because I've thought along those lines as well. There was one RW spammer here a month or two back who really deserved it, but I figured I needed to be able to report his spams and websites. Then after reading your pointless rants last week in the TS12 forum, I started to more seriously think of putting the whiners and RW promoters in ignore, since they're not really looking to improve the sim. Mind you, the 3-4 crybabies I'd block are more people than I've blocked in well over 20 years of internet and BBS use.

Feel free to do so. I encourage it.

 

[Dep]

Hey! I made the whine blog because I don't like Speedtree!
Alright!

Dave......

Congrats :hehe:

 

[Dep]

By now, I have realised that my post was really just a piece of nonsense rubbish that I shall now delete, for it is really not something that fits the topic of this current discussion. Not the first time that I have been an idiot, mind you.

Anyway, this thread has gone off the deep end, in my opinion, so it is my opinion that the moderators should close it.

If you are talking about the post you made comparing pro and anti SpeedTrees people with pro and anti Railworks people, I thought it was a pretty good post. It's why I took the time to reply to it. I don't necessarily agree with it, and I gave my reasons for not agreeing with it. I don't see you as a Kool-Aid drinking fanboy at all. And I don't think anyone questioned your right to like SpeedTrees. What bothers many of us is the claim that SpeedTrees DOESN'T affect performance in a negative way and the only way to fix the problem is to spend a fortune on a new computer JUST to run SpeedTrees effectively.
That's the equivalent of telling someone with a car with 20,000 miles on it that their car is out of tune and they should buy a new one to get better performance. Trainz is the ONLY sim that has this type of problem with SpeedTrees. Other sims that use them work fine and nobody has had to go out and buy a new, expensive, high end computer in order to use them.
N3V has stated that's it's either SpeedTrees or NO trees and that is the only option for building routes. That may make sense as far as "updating" their product, but since SpeedTrees implementation is faulty to start with, it makes ZERO sense.

 

[Dep]

Actually the suggestion to use SpeedTrees did come from a paying customer. Remember to be careful what you wish for, it might come true.

Paul

Can you give his name? Is he in hiding in Argentina? :hehe:

 

[Dep]

You don't you can change them I don't see how this is enforced. Can't we just play the game its not like our computers are getting 5fps I get 30 to 40 in any route weather a lot of speedtrees or not its just how well you graphics card can handle it.

How nice for you. Please speak for yourself. The only route I get a consistent 30-40FPS is the Port Ogden and Northern. It's where many of us have migrated to since SpeedTrees was incorporated. And taking the N3V/fanboy position of blaming hardware simply doesn't fly any more. We know that even some of the most high end comps with the newest state-of-the-art hardware are having problems in TS12.

 

[clam1952]

Some of Dave Drakes trees come out fairly reasonable if you change the alphas to pure black and white, mainly the ones that use more than two planes, plus there are some 3d trees of the non leaping around kind on the DLS, mainly jankvis's experiments before he went speed tree, plus there are TNM's 3d fir trees in assorted shapes and sizes.

Only a couple of the G:Trees are usable by applying the alpha fix, one that comes to mind is the fir tree I think.

As to using Speed trees I find pofigs look a lot better than the built in ones and come in more realistic sizes and make very little dent on frame rates for me, obviously they may behave differently on a different setup.

If anyone wants to try a check on whether it is actually the speed trees causing poor frame rates, you can disable them totally by temporarily removing the appropriate dll and seeing what the actual performance difference is.

Another thing you can look at is, after running a session with a lot of SpeedTrees, exit to content manager and then check jetlog.txt, bit of an eye opener I feel, from what I have seen problems may be in some of the individual trees rather than the actual speed tree engine implementation.

I find deleting any of them that have texture errors gets rid of the bulk of the error messages.

Extract of an old jetlog.txt I was using to trouble shoot a while back. The number of branch errors appears to relate to the number of copies of the tree with the texture error that are on the route. I may be wrong though........... The actual log went on for several pages of similar.

2:34.7 : TrainzTextureResource::Activate> couldnt load 'hash-0c\kuid2 72938 41306 2/summer/ShrubBark.texture' from 'local'
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : TNIG_ShaderSet > 
?   3:25.7 : GetShader > Failed to get CG shader
?   3:25.7 : GetShader > Cannot get technique[Branches] - No effect loaded.
?   3:25.8 : TNIG_ShaderSet > Cannot get technique[Branches] - No effect loaded.
?   3:25.8 : TNIG_ShaderSet > Cannot get technique[Branches] - No effect loaded.
?   3:25.8 : TNIG_ShaderSet > Cannot get technique[Branches] - No effect loaded.
?   3:25.8 : TNIG_ShaderSet > Cannot get technique[Branches] - No effect loaded.
?   3:25.8 : TNIG_ShaderSet > Cannot get technique[Branches] - No effect loaded.
?   3:25.8 : TNIG_ShaderSet > Cannot get technique[Branches] - No effect loaded.
?   3:25.8 : TNIG_ShaderSet > Cannot get technique[Branches] - No effect loaded.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Can you give his name? Is he in hiding in Argentina? :hehe:

Are you not that keen on them either, then Dep.......:hehe:

To be fair, and to partly answer the OP, as N3V have spent possibly thousands of Aussie Dollars in obtaining these trees and the appropriate licences, etc, I would have expected them to manipulate the CMP, so, that these trees will be placed on most routes, built-in, 3rd party, and DLS ones, whether we as end-users like it, or, not, some may even consider it as a form of content bullying, but, I wouldn't have thought N3V would spend so much money and then not utilise them.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[Retro00064]

If you are talking about the post you made comparing pro and anti SpeedTrees people with pro and anti Railworks people, I thought it was a pretty good post. It's why I took the time to reply to it. I don't necessarily agree with it, and I gave my reasons for not agreeing with it. I don't see you as a Kool-Aid drinking fanboy at all. And I don't think anyone questioned your right to like SpeedTrees. What bothers many of us is the claim that SpeedTrees DOESN'T affect performance in a negative way and the only way to fix the problem is to spend a fortune on a new computer JUST to run SpeedTrees effectively.
That's the equivalent of telling someone with a car with 20,000 miles on it that their car is out of tune and they should buy a new one to get better performance. Trainz is the ONLY sim that has this type of problem with SpeedTrees. Other sims that use them work fine and nobody has had to go out and buy a new, expensive, high end computer in order to use them.
N3V has stated that's it's either SpeedTrees or NO trees and that is the only option for building routes. That may make sense as far as "updating" their product, but since SpeedTrees implementation is faulty to start with, it makes ZERO sense.

I know that post was a sensible one, but I got the impression that the actual topic at the time was this Speedtree performance thing rather than the type of stuff that my post was talking about, so I thought my post was irrevelant. I guess it was after all...oh well. Did I get enough sleep the night before that post? It seems that my noggin may have become mistaken afterward.

Anyway, popcorn, anyone? I think that must be relevant and some people must be wanting popcorn.

 

[Dep]

Are you not that keen on them either, then Dep.......:hehe:

To be fair, and to partly answer the OP, as N3V have spent possibly thousands of Aussie Dollars in obtaining these trees and the appropriate licences, etc, I would have expected them to manipulate the CMP, so, that these trees will be placed on most routes, built-in, 3rd party, and DLS ones, whether we as end-users like it, or, not, some may even consider it as a form of content bullying, but, I wouldn't have thought N3V would spend so much money and then not utilise them.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

Ahhhh...very perceptive of you, ex No, I am not a fanboy of SpeedTrees as implemented in TS12. The italics is there because SpeedTrees in other sims seem to work just fine.

I can understand N3V insisting on their use. Once they committed to them, they were pretty much stuck with them. There is NO WAY they are going to say "oops, we goofed up and we are going to switch back to the old trees or a different version of trees". That would be admitting that there is a definite problem with SpeedTrees. Very unlikely you will ever get an admission of that type. Especially when they have their fanboys propping them up will all kinds of phony reports on framerates and solutions of buying a supercomp to use brute force to "make things work". They have conversions of routes from standard trees to SpeedTrees, it's a shame there isn't a program that will convert a route the other way...from SpeedTrees to the old style trees. The guy that comes up with that program will be able to quit his regular job and retire immediately with the money he makes off folks who DON'T like SpeedTrees :hehe:

 

[Dep]

I know that post was a sensible one, but I got the impression that the actual topic at the time was this Speedtree performance thing rather than the type of stuff that my post was talking about, so I thought my post was irrevelant. I guess it was after all...oh well. Did I get enough sleep the night before that post? It seems that my noggin may have become mistaken afterward.

Anyway, popcorn, anyone? I think that must be relevant and some people must be wanting popcorn.

Well the topic does seem to be evolving the longer we discuss it. By no means am I a topic Nazi. Please continue to post your observations and comments.

Popcorn...as long as it's not SPEEDPopcorn, I'll take a bowl with lots of unhealthy, high cholesterol butter and tons of table salt.

 

[spikesignal]

I actually did a test, to see how different types of trees affect FPS...
Test done in Trainz 2010 build 44088
filled 6 baseboards completely with 2 kind of trees:

First: Tree BigLeafMaple 01 , Kuid:523:1186 (Speedtree)

Second: d Ak derevo 22m 2 , Kuid:428217:345 (Billboard type tree with HD textures)

Ground texture i used in this test: TSM Ballast 02 (high quality ground texture)


System specs:

CPU Intel Core2Duo E6750 at 2.66GHz
3Gb Corsair ValueRAM DDR2 667Mhz
Asus P5K type motherboard
GPU Asus GTX550Ti Overclocked to 1GHz PCI-E
Trainz on Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA 3.0Gb/s 320-GB Hard Drive
Windows 7 Ultimate 32-bit

Test 1:
6 baseboards completely filled with SpeedTree Type: Tree BigLeafMaple 01 , Kuid:523:1186
No ground textures used, just grid.

FPS: Somewhere around 7

and with a HD ground texture type: TSM Ballast 02 , Kuid:293946:100801

FPS: somewhere around 6
____________________________________________________________________________

Test 2:
6 baseboards completely filled with billboard type tree: d Ak derevo 22m 2 , Kuid:428217:345
No ground textures used, just grid.

FPS: Somewhere around 25

and with HD ground texture type: TSM Ballast 02 , Kuid:293946:100801

FPS: Somewhere around 21


I didn't use any splines, but i know they make FPS dive. (Exspecially bad ones)

 

[mrscsi]

Warning Here's a Big Picture

Since everybody's running tests, I figured I would run one also…:hehe:

Now it's been a while since I have tried this, but it was easy to do.

Now here we have a six baseboard map that had control-alt-shift-p run as you can see there are four different speedtree types, and 3993 speedtreez visible. There is 12 materials on the map which besides speedtreez is going to be the ground texture.

Backed out, maxed out settings wise, getting the most you can get in the scene dropped me to constant 30 frames per second. Keep in mind this is with TS12 and there is a frame rate choke in the Trainzoptions.txt. Now my questions would be these,

1. Would you want more than 3993 speedtreez in a single scene?

2. Is 30 frames per second not fast enough?

If you answered yes to 1 and no to 2 then you really need something other than train simulator, because if you demand to see more than 3993 trees while operating the train, you're trying to do too much more than likely for the computer that you have.

It's not speedtreez fault, it's not Auran/N3V's fault, if you're demanding more than that to run at a higher rate on the computer you have, it's truly your fault for being too demanding.

Now again before you all start screaming that it's only 30 frames per second if I went into chase view behind the locomotive or in the cab frame rates would be well over 60 because you're not pulling back and getting that many instances into the same scene. If that's what's most important to you you need to get a world simulator, not a train simulator.

 

[dricketts]

I've become a fan of pofig's speedtreez but most others just look like toys.

As for a speedtreez go I've been working through an issue on my 80 mile route. I've been using all pofig's speedtreez and he has a lot of them. Through the process of adding trees and sorting through all of them to find one's I liked I might have added too many "types". Even though my route was running smooth as silk in very heavily wooded areas Trainz would freeze and lock up at times with no warning. I posted about the issue with a screen shot of my in driver performance stats. A forum member pointed out that I had too many speedtreez "types". They ranged anywhere from 15 to 45 depending where on the route you are and the draw distance. This same member also mentioned "instances" do not have the negative impact as the types. After a couple of days of using the replace asset tool I have got it down to no more than 20 "types" at any point on the route. Here's some screen shots to give you an idea of the trees.

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=78007

I've only been testing for a day but so far so good. Keeping my fingers crossed. Point being if this theory is correct you can have as many trees as you want but just limit the number of different types of trees.

 

[mrscsi]

Warning Another Big Picture

Here is JointedRail's brand-new weathered Loco sitting on JointedRail track on that map.

If I read the stats correctly there are 190 speedtreez visible. As you can see the frame rate is a constant 60 and again that's maxed out settings wise.

 

[dricketts]

Here is JointedRail's brand-new weathered Loco sitting on JointedRail track on that map.

If I read the stats correctly there are 190 speedtreez visible. As you can see the frame rate is a constant 60 and again that's maxed out settings wise.

But you only have four "types." I'm curious how your machine does with 40 + speedtreez types.