I Absolutley Hate Speed Trees!

[Dep]

Why is it always speedtreez haters continually repeat the same false information? "without the hurricane wind effect." now my question would be are you genuinely ignorant of the fact that you can set windspeed or are you intentionally being misleading?

Everything that you're attributing to speedtreez regarding frame rates unfortunately is a result of your system or a mismatch in hardware. If it weren't then everybody 100% across-the-board would have the same problem with speedtreez which we don't.

You guys seem to just absolutely hate speedtreez and that is your right, but to claim this or that instead of being honest and saying "I don't have enough computer to run them properly" is just poisoning the minds of people who've never seen a speedtree and they read your crap and believe it.

I just think you need to do a little inward reflection, if you think speedtreez are the root of all evil, put together a 60 baseboard map with nothing on it except the track going in a oval, then you hit control alt shift P and let it build some mountains and let it plant a forest of speedtreez.

Then put on the most extensive locomotive and rolling stock you have and go around the map. I'll bet you'll be over 100 frames per second :hehe:with speedtreez as far as the eye could see…

I know I can do it, because I've done it…

Now of course you're going to cry foul and say there's nothing else on the map, yeah you're right. Because TS12 like every version before it is at the mercy of content some of which is so wildly inefficient it brings Trainz to its knees.

Do you know that there are textures out there that can take 20% off your frame rate? Just plain ground textures, not to mention splines why aren't you writing volumes about those?

Ahh yes...the Trainz aplogists appear. Living in denial and loving it. Their answer to Trainz outdated game engine and poorly-implemented SpeedTrees is to blame the user's equipment. "You need to buy a $6000 game computer to run TS12." What they fail to mention is even folks with high end comps are experiencing the exact same problems. Here ya go apologist...a whole thread on TS12 lagging badly. And the consensus is SpeedTrees and an outdated game engine. Read it and apologize some more:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=76984

 

[aardvark1]

Why is it always speedtreez haters continually repeat the same false information?

Maybe Dendrophobia?

http://common-phobias.com/Dendro/phobia.htm

Have fun,

 

[mezzoprezzo]

The progress made with the SpeedTreez has been astonishing when you compare the early type against what is available now.

My main problem with them is the fact that you cannot make your own.

The traditional billboard trees can be made by anyone with appropriate gmax (or other) modelling tool skills. Grasses and shrubs can also be made to move with animation functionality added.

How do you model a tree that might be as important a part of the route as a building?

That giant elm in the local churchyard, or gnarled oak tree that exists outside of the local village railway station, can be photographed and built at home. It can be made just as easily as buildings, with photo quality results which are more than acceptable.

How do you achieve that with a speedtree?

Cheers
Casper

 

[mrscsi]

Ahh yes...the Trainz aplogists appear. Living in denial and loving it. Their answer to Trainz outdated game engine and poorly-implemented SpeedTrees is to blame the user's equipment. "You need to buy a $6000 game computer to run TS12." What they fail to mention is even folks with high end comps are experiencing the exact same problems. Here ya go apologist...a whole thread on TS12 lagging badly. And the consensus is SpeedTrees and an outdated game engine. Read it and apologize some more:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=76984

I don't have a $6000 computer, and I'm not a Trainz apologist, but you know what, I was raised right.

I was raised not to whine and cry and blame everybody else in the world for any perceived troubles I might have. Unfortunately there's quite a few you guys who can't say the same thing.

So have you tried turning off the hurricane wind using the environmental controls and have you tried making a 60 or 80 baseboard map and putting a track on it and hitting control-alt-shift-P? Have you tried that? Let it load up with speedtreez and then run it and report back here what your frame rate is:hehe:

Something tells me you've never done that, because it's simpler to whine and cry on a forum. It's simpler for you to accuse everybody who ISN'T having problems with a route or with speedtreez or with Trainz in general as being owners of supercomputers and Trainz apologists…

And like water we know you're gonna take the path of least resistance:hehe:

 

[mrscsi]

Ahh yes...the Trainz aplogists appear. Living in denial and loving it. Their answer to Trainz outdated game engine and poorly-implemented SpeedTrees is to blame the user's equipment. "You need to buy a $6000 game computer to run TS12." What they fail to mention is even folks with high end comps are experiencing the exact same problems. Here ya go apologist...a whole thread on TS12 lagging badly. And the consensus is SpeedTrees and an outdated game engine. Read it and apologize some more:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=76984

You need to look at the definition of the word "consensus"

If you think you have a consensus, you're sadly mistaken. 40 or 50 people having trouble is not a consensus:hehe: and I think I'm being kind with the 40 or 50 figure.

The vast majority of Trainz users and especially TS12 users aren't in your consensus:hehe:

Because if you actually read the forums it's the same people complaining post after post after post in thread after thread after thread, hardly a consensus…

I think the consensus shows that the majority of you having problems are doing so on substandard computers or at least computers with bottlenecks due to individual piece of hardware not being matched properly for the task at hand. For example I can put in 64 or 128 bit video card in my system and TS 12 will slideshow. Which is why I always recommend that the user have at least a 256 bit card, you know why? Because then TS 12 doesn't slideshow

The same can be said for putting a high end video card on a low-end processor or motherboard, it's not going to do the job either. Your hardware needs to be matched to take advantage of all the components and relieve bottlenecks.

 

[mrscsi]

I love it, Mr. consensus sends me to a thread where he's arguing on the behalf of someone who is overclocking a poor little I7 and having problems, immediately blaming the game while ignoring the fact that overclocking that processor that far can cause a whole host of issues instability being one I can think of off the top of my head.

It also undercuts his argument that one needs a $6000 machine:hehe:

90% of problems are user self-inflicted, that's the consensus. If you can't or do not understand computers and how they go together and how things work just reading a bunch of reviews and throwing together a box with all the latest greatest parts and overclocking the crap out of it as you can see probably is not going to be the answer.

Comparing Trainz to any other videogame is not a worthwhile argument simply because they are so vastly different the term apples to oranges doesn't even apply.

But certainly merely blaming programming when in fact that the issue resides on the users computer may be the easy thing to do, it doesn't make it correct nor does it make it a consensus:hehe:

 

[hminky]

More experiments with "Wild Bill NORTH" :

We got this with 2500 Speedtrees where 2010 replaced the billboards

Ts2010 44088 - either mode it didn't matter - Speedtrees replacement by 2010 - 43 FPS

Went into 2009 and replaced the original billboards that 2010 was replacing and got down to 300 Speedtrees. JVC billboards replaced the original ones:

We got 183 FPS!!!!!!!!!!

Would have tried it in TS12 but the JVC billboard was replaced by another Speedtree.

Harold

 

[mrscsi]

More experiments with "Wild Bill NORTH" :

We got this with 2500 Speedtrees where 2010 replaced the billboards

Ts2010 44088 - either mode it didn't matter - Speedtrees replacement by 2010 - 43 FPS

Went into 2009 and replaced the original billboards that 2010 was replacing and got down to 300 Speedtrees. JVC billboards replaced the original ones:

We got 183 FPS!!!!!!!!!!

Would have tried it in TS12 but the JVC billboard was replaced by another Speedtree.

Harold

And?

I can run Marias Pass full blast maxed out in 2009 and get close to 200 frames per second. I can run Avery Drexel maxed out and get 100 frames per second and I can run the Mojave sub and get 60 frames per second.

Just out of curiosity have you opened the developer settings and examined any particular scene to see what was the worst index and buffer count on any particular asset and removed those? Or have you just automatically made up your mind that speedtreez is the sole cause?

Because I can assure you I can get rid of some splines, some of the old billboard vegetation, and some of the more inefficient assets in the Mojave sub and get well over 100 frames per second without ever taking out a single speedtree.

Back when the speedtreez issue first started rearing its head, I made some test maps where I absolutely placed more speedtreez closer together and more densely packed than any sane individual ever would. Then I took performance measurements and then started adding various assets and watched in some cases frame rates drop 50% using certain splines.

Now can you blame that on speedtreez? No it's the spline:hehe:

 

[hminky]

You are the ultimate "Fanboy"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It doesn't matter what else is on the board, if you replace one asset, the Auran Speedtree and the FPS jumps it ain't anything else but that asset.

I am always amazed by "Fanboy" FPS.

Harold

 

[mrscsi]

You are the ultimate "Fanboy"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It doesn't matter what else is on the board, if you replace one asset, the Auran Speedtree and the FPS jumps it ain't anything else but that asset.

I am always amazed by "Fanboy" FPS.

Harold

And I could describe you as the ultimate something but I won't:hehe:

You don't find anything wrong with your flawed assessment? That really should be ringing alarm bells with you but it's not.

Because if you knew as much as you think you know you would realize that if you pull any asset off a map frame rates will move one way or the other. There are some assets that are just more wildly inefficient than others, there are just some assets that are overused more than others, what does that tell you?

For example I built a map of the Bailey yard, there was absolutely nothing on the map but the ground texture and track. I could put one locomotive and a few train cars and start out at one end where there were only two tracks and get 180 frames per second, when the yard came into view where there were 80 tracks (minimum) laid out in the yard with absolutely no other rolling stock on the map frame rates would drop to less than 40:hehe:

Now is that speedtreez fault?

Bottom line if you don't like speedtreez don't use them, but calling people fan boys for merely telling you you're process is flawed and constantly spreading false information that speedtreez is the ultimate frame rate killer obviously isn't doing the community a whole lot of good.

Obviously you whining about it for months and months and months has caused Auran/N3V to change their policy regarding speedtreez hasn't it?:hehe:

How's that campaign working for you by the way?:wave:

 

[hminky]

"Wild Bill NORTH" is a five board Route from 2004!!!!

I use JVC' s payware "camera facing Speedtrees:

LOVE them, but they are, here is that awful Trainz word, PAYWARE!!

The Auran Speedtress are awful and kill any route brought over from earlier editions since they automatically replace common trees of earlier editions. The replacement Speedtrees cannot be replaced with Asset Replace in Surveyor.

That is why I hate Speedtrees.

You have no idea of scientific testing do you?

Love Trainz 2010
Harold

 

[mrscsi]

"Wild Bill NORTH" is a five board Route from 2004!!!!

I use JVC' s payware "camera facing Speedtrees:

LOVE them, but they are, here is that awful Trainz word, PAYWARE!!

The Auran Speedtress are awful and kill any route brought over from earlier editions since they automatically replace common trees of earlier editions. The replacement Speedtrees cannot be replaced with Asset Replace in Surveyor.

That is why I hate Speedtrees.

You have now idea of scientific testing do you?

Love Trainz 2010
Harold

So because you say they're awful and you spell no with a W, that's somehow scientific?:hehe:

I'd say that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Because if you think that it's "scientific" to simply test something in a way to guarantee a certain result, maybe you should be working for the federal government, that's certainly the way they do scientific testing…:hehe:

Have you ever given some thought that bringing a 2004 route into 2010 or TS12 just might not be a good idea? That would really be akin to me saying I hate Windows 7 64-bit and that it's scientific why I hate it because it won't run Windows 3.1.

I really think you need to get a grip Harold because you've been running around for months complaining in thread after thread and where has it gotten you? Has Auran/N3V eliminate speedtreez? Hardly they told you to get stuffed but yet here you are once again.

But I'll reiterate once again, a few people having issues running speedtreez is not a consensus, it's not sloppy programming, it's not bad implementation, it's not an unfinished beta, or any other of the colorful terms you've used over the months that you've been on your mission.

I'll guarantee you scientifically in every case the problem can be eventually traced back to the users system and/or what they are trying to run in a particular Trainz platform. That's an absolute fact, because if you think Auran/N3V has only sold 50 or 60 versions of Trainz with speedtreez and that everybody is having a problem, far from being a scientific consensus I would say that that assessment would be more in the range of the extreme fringe.

But as I told you many times before Harold, if you hate it so much why are you here? Why do you still use it? Why?

There's a real good alternative called railworks, maybe you would be happier over there. Maybe you need to get my first Trainz or something a little less taxing on your system. Maybe you need to stick to solitaire. But constantly complaining even after Auran/N3V tells you you're wrong, shows a lack of maturity in my opinion.

But of course that wouldn't be a scientific certainty merely an opinion on my part:hehe:

 

[hminky]

If you read the original post it is about the replacement issue. That is what the whole thread has been about. I was amazed by the difference between 2009 and 2010 results with the same five board route and the only difference was the tree replacement.

I took the Pro-Clinch route and replaced the offending future Speedtrees with other non-replacement 2004 trees in 2009 and got this when I replaced them with the JVC "payware" trees in 2010:

It is the replacement issue if you would read the thread.

Harold

EDIT: I misspell words because I have perception problems in my declining years. I have to go back and edit my posts many times because of this.

 

[mrscsi]

Now that I'm done laughing and I can actually use my speech recognition without too much of an issue. How in the world would taking a 2004 route and importing it into 2010 and then claiming that since the only thing that changed is speedtreez could that be considered "scientific?"

Because let's examine what's wrong with that statement from the get-go. 100% of the assets on that route if it is truly a 2004 route were not originally native. They can't be because it's not a 2010 route.

Now we know that 2010 has compatibility mode and we know that running compatibility mode taxes your system more than running a route with assets that are 100% native. We know this to be a fact.

So I were reiterate for any inexperienced Trainz users who are looking at this thread without having any knowledge of speedtreez and are trying to make up their minds that this kind of logic of taking a non-native asset and shoehorning it into a newer version and then complaining that speedtreez is the frame rate killer, is extremely flawed from the very beginning.

But there are quite a few who will complain in post after post that this is in fact an absolute. IT IS NOT!

The vast majority of users who are running 100% native assets in 2010 and TS12 do not seem to have any of these issues that this minority of users seem to have. Now does this mean that you won't have the use of 100% of the DLS? Perhaps, but it doesn't take a lot of effort to put together routes or to actually fix routes removing non-native or wildly inefficient assets to improve frame rates in 2010 and TS12 without removing a single speedtree.

All one has to do logically when faced by this facetious argument over speedtreez is to turn on the performance stats and merely look at the kuid's with the worst index or buffer count in a particular scene to realize that even assets that have been supposedly fixed and made native are still wildly inefficient. One could make the argument that you should never lay any track, because doing that can hurt frame rates far more than planting a speedtree:hehe:

But all one really has to do is look at the forums and you'll see the same people over and over again complaining about same things. It doesn't take a scientific test to realize that they are in the minority and the vast majority are not having the same issues.

 

[mrscsi]

If you read the original post it is about the replacement issue. That is what the whole thread has been about. I was amazed by the difference between 2009 and 2010 results with the same five board route and the only difference was the tree replacement.

I took the Pro-Clinch route and replaced the offending future Speedtrees with other non-replacement 2004 trees in 2009 and got this when I replaced them with the JVC "payware" trees in 2010:

It is the replacement issue if you would read the thread.

Harold

That's why it's called "I absolutely hate speed trees!" Right?

Maybe you speedtreez haters should start giving a little extra thought to the titles of your threads, because now it seems you're backing off of your original argument that I was just a fan boy and that I know nothing about scientific testing, and you're accusing me of not reading the original post:hehe:

I glanced at the thread, what I found was the same old complainers making the same tired arguments. I think the title sums it up perfectly actually, you want to complain and instead of maybe conceding the fact that your testing could be the problem, you continue to insist that it's speedtreez.

Why don't you take a 100% native route built with 100% native assets along with speedtreez and do some testing there? Afraid of what you'll find? Why is it that you have to insist on testing routes from 2004 in 2010 and then declaring speedtreez the culprit?

Have a nice day Harold, and good luck with your campaign to get speedtreez eliminated, something tells me you're going to need it:hehe:

 

[sparky15]

Not a scientist myself, just think Speedtrees are the ugliest thing I ever seen. Profig put some nice ones out, not my cup of tea.

You can argue all day, I just don't like them. If I have no choice but to use them in newer versions, I guess no more new versions for me. Give me the ability back to use the content I prefer, I'll consider another purchase of Trainz.

Until then, back to 06. I would rather 04 but, the new policies make 06 a better choice due to more built in content. No big deal either way. Sad that which version you choose is based on content now.

Dave.......

 

[Retro00064]

Post deleted.

 

[mrscsi]

The problem with an pro-Speedtree versus anti-Speedtree thread is exactly the same problem as that with a Railworks versus Trainz thread: it is all just people's personal opinions. It is okay to express your opinion, but arguing with others over whose opinion is better is useless and a waste of time and words.

I personally LIKE Speedtrees, including the built-in ones. That is simply my personal opinion; it is 100% guaranteed that some others around here do not have the same opinion. I am not going to argue with those who do not like Speedtrees that my opinion is better.

To all those who do not like the Speedtree animatedwind effect, see this thread, which should be made a sticky, in my opinion. I have used this hack to turn off the Speedtree animation for performance reasons (any amount of extra performance that I can squeeze out of this rather low-end laptop is nice), and the Speedtrees are thus no longer animated in TS2010 over here.

Popcorn, anyone?

Regards,

Retro.

I don't think it's worth popcorn. I already accept the fact that I'm a fan boy, unscientific, and an apologist simply because I don't shoehorn 2004 content into 2010:hehe:

I can live with that…

 

[Dep]

Just a suggestion to those who are tired of reading the propaganda from fanboys and apologists and those swimming in De Nial of TS12 problems. Do like Sniper297 does. Add those people to your ignore list. And I hope they do the same thing to us so that we don't have to read their ******it. :wave:

Dep

 

[mrscsi]

Just a suggestion to those who are tired of reading the propaganda from fanboys and apologists and those swimming in De Nial of TS12 problems. Do like Sniper297 does. Add those people to your ignore list. And I hope they do the same thing to us so that we don't have to read their ******it. :wave:

Dep

Why don't you start your own usergroup? You can call it "the I don't have enough computer to run Trainz properly and all I want to do is complain club"


If you want off-line I could give you some further suggestions what you can call it:hehe: