Does Trainz Have a Future?

[Rob]

I'm not a fan of the TC concept

I am a bigger fan of that concept than the no future of Trainz, no forums, no DLS concept.

TC was the way necessary to convince our investors that we can fund things like better steam representation. I have mentioned the situation we were faced with many times here. Unfortunately, it couldn't have gone on like it did in the past; and to continue we had to get used to the idea of more profitable methods.

Ship both CMP and CMP Lite with TRS so people can choose for themselves, and make TRS more forgiving with asset errors, like earlier versions.

I'm not entirely sure if it's that simple, but it is a sound idea that I have heard before and i will discuss it with James for you, Brian. I'd certainly be extremely cautious however about encouraging the use of erroneous content.

If Windows gave the same percentage of its users problems similar to the ones we experience, the whole world would be up in arms.

I thought it did and we were? :hehe:

If the program had been properly designed and coded to begin with

Unfortunately while the design had great intentions and offers a lot of flexibility, it certainly isn't flawless or intuitive to use. I am not sure, Peter whether you are qualified to comment on the coding side of it, but I know the very qualified people that worked on it and that they did the best they could with the design they had.

It appears that CMP is the "Boogieman" that will scare otherwise intelligent users from buying future versions of Trainz. Perhaps Auran should take note, and offer CMP separately from the next version of Trainz.

Sad but true apparently.

TAD is here to stay and the only effective way available to edit it is through CMP. It locks up sometimes on some machines (and I use it on a lot of machines). The whole office has heard me swearing at it many a time (mind you it's heard me swearing at a great many other applications too).

It took me a while to come over to the idea of it, but if you can sort out your setup issues, it offers a great deal of what many of our members really wanted out of open architecture. It's the most powerful content management tool Trainz has ever had, and with it's help I have solved many a content problem both for leisure and at work.

So I strongly recommend to CMP holdouts that they leave the comfort zone for a short transitional period and adequately experience the joy of CMP and see if you look back.

Cheers!

~R~

 

[Rob]

Here's a quick summary of some (not recommended) last resorts I sometimes use when experiencing difficulty...

If CMP fails to start I ctrl+alt+del to see if there is another instance of ContentManager running amongst the processes and end it if there is.

If it seems to have forgotten my login or think I have no FCT etc I check that my C:/Progra~/Auran/TC/Settings folder hasn't any content set to read-only. Then I ensure that the login details are entered.

If it still can't connect I make sure there's no firewall dramas etc.

If it even still can't connect I sometimes choose "Use Internet Explorer Settings" in the CMP settings internet tab which sometimes helps.

If it seems to crash frequently then usually I am on a machine that is chocka block full of DLS content. Sometimes it helps in those situations to go to C:/Progra~/Auran/TRS2006/ and delete the assets.tdx and cache folder; because occasionally the database becomes corrupted for unknown reasons. You need to run TRS2006 after deleting those things before launching CMP again; and it may take a long time to start TRS2006 that first time after deleting the database.

For anyone who missed my previous post, these are things I have noted about running CMP on a wide variety of machines and configurations.

Hope this helps someone.

~R~

 

[Alex23]

Hi Rob and everyone,

Before I take my leave of you all for the time being, I would like to heartily agree with Rob's comments.

I feel that from what I see, the future for Trainz is bright.

On the subject of Cmp. I have 418 items on the dls under my username and that of Victrainz. Every single item has been edited and revised using CMP, With one exception the 2006 Silver Jubilee A4 done with CCP.

I think that speeks for itself. And granted there are some issues, but they are bearable.

All the best Guy's. I Will be fronting up for TC3, and good luck to the Crew with it.

Cheer's, --- for now.

Alex --- aka --- Alex23:wave:

 

[narrowgauge]

Rob

Unfortunately while the design had great intentions and offers a lot of flexibility, it certainly isn't flawless or intuitive to use.

Poor implementation, a good design does not survive poor implementation and I agree completely with your comment.

I am not sure, Peter whether you are qualified to comment on the coding side of it, but I know the very qualified people that worked on it and that they did the best they could with the design they had.

Now you seem to reverse your thinking and say it was a poor design and the programmers could not do much with it.

Rob, we are all qualified to comment on the programs we use just as you probably complain about the car you drive but I doubt that you have much experince in car design. We live and work with them every day. We see the interface and expect that the 'works' will not fall in a heap if in our comparative ignorance we make a mistake. If the 'works' does not work properly then whose problem was that? Not ours, our ineptitude should have been taken care of by the programmer, that is the nuts an bolts of the whole thing.

I have spent several years programming for industrial database applications and I feel qualified enough from that experience to know that if something goes wrong it is fair to blame the programmer, after all he/she was the one that should have anticipated the havoc and losses an untrained person or incorrect data can cause.

CMP was rushed out and, in my opinion, too many unproven things were attempted.

If CMP fails to start I ctrl+alt+del to see if there is another instance of ContentManager running amongst the processes and end it if there is.

That would be nice if I could get ctrl-alt-delete to work. CMP freezes and it is 'hello little reboot button' every time. Perhaps it hasn't frozen and is just thinking, How do I know, there is no progress bar or litle spinner to tell me it is still alive. What do I do for half a day, sit and wait?

AJ, All in my opinion of course.:hehe:

Cheers

Peter

 

[john259]

Leaving aside the contentious issue of possible bugs, I feel that a lot of problems users have with CMP are due to it being designed around an abstract computer database concept which very few people can understand, whereas the asset management system in TRS2004 is based on physical folders and files for each asset which most people can understand and therefore feel confident using. Just my 2c worth.

John

 

[SVAndrei]

Leaving aside the contentious issue of possible bugs, I feel that a lot of problems users have with CMP are due to it being designed around an abstract computer database concept which very few people can understand, whereas the asset management system in TRS2004 is based on physical folders and files for each asset which most people can understand and therefore feel confident using. Just my 2c worth.

John

I agree. But once you manage to grasp the concept, CMP becomes quite easy to understand & use.

 

[sethmcs]

I agree. But once you manage to grasp the concept, CMP becomes quite easy to understand & use.

I think I grasp the concept of the CMP and like Narrowgauge stick with TRS2004.:hehe:

 

[AnthonyGlamour]

CMP is the reason that I no longer use TRS2006, and will be the reason I won't be throwing caution to the wind and buying TC3.
I'm not a fan of the TC concept, but I would be tempted to buy TC3 if CMP was no longer part of the deal.

Actually, I've got no problems with CMP on TRS2006. I can't speak for others but on my system it's sometimes a bit iffy (FCT doesn't work, it doesn't recognise my serial number, you have to download the whole thing before it tells you there's missing assets etc etc) though mostly it's fine. The problem with it for me is that it doesn't show when assets are 'industry' (usable stations for example). I don't like Download Station, I never have but that's just my preference.
My point was that they've obviously gone to town with 'Classics', the graphics are improved, it all looks at lot smoother (so much so in fact, my pc sometimes throws it's toys out of the pram with the dreaded 'Fatal Exception') & it seems to me they've tried to make a totally new & improved product. Which is admirable. But if the flip side of that is that some old content doesn't work, they should have made sure that there was enough new content to suffice. And they haven't.

TC should be removed from the Trainz franchise entirely, launched as a totally new product with no backwards compatability & a totally new set of stuff.

TRS2006 is for World Builders, the best rail simulator of them all & it's going to remain so for some time until Auran provide LOTS of new content.

Just off topic a second, when I'm playing TRS2006 I always get the 'Fatal Exception' screen but only when I close the program down. If Auran could bring out a product that didn't have 'Fatal Exception's' all the time, all might be forgiven.

 

[big_b]

I have rarely have 2 instances of CMP running stopping it from loading but if it does most times it's the launcher that is hanging & has caused the problem.Kill the launcher & CMP usually boot up straight away.
CMP will lock up everything even task manager.Rather than reboot I now open Task Manager before launching then if it does I have access to shut down whatever without rebooting.

Dave

 

[AussieNightcrawler]

I like Rob have CMP running on multiple system and have no real 'major' problems with it, as for 'minor' problems, there really is only 2 issues:

A) Locking up, this appears to happen when for some reason the database has become corrupted, usually by deleting the assets.tdx where TRS06/TC is installed and the assets.bku in the cache folder (if its there) fixes the problem. Then start TRS2006 or TC and let it rebuild the database, reminds me of TRS2004 when it had to build the .chump file(s) after you install a new piece of content, so really nothing new, no major problem.

B) Crashing, the only times I have CMP crash is when it can't connect to the DLS to update and Planet Auran to confirm username and password. This has become more often lately due to the circumstances around Auran, but again no major problem.

Other then that, yes we all have the "Updating the database.... Please wait..." message box that seems to never go away, for some reason CMP has forgotten to close it, I do get this every now and then but nothing that pressing the ESC key will not fix. As I have the "Show icon in notification area when connected" option selected in the properties of my network connection I can see the network activity, if nothing has happened for like 10 seconds, I just move the message box out of the way and use CMP as needed. If nothing has happened for 30 seconds then I know CMP has forgotten to close the message so I press ESC and just continue to use CMP as normal.

For what it is, CMP is a great tool and as a small creator of content for Trainz, I don't get much done I know but I find it does the job well, the small problems that I have are very easily fixed.

 

[Rob]

Now you seem to reverse your thinking and say it was a poor design and the programmers could not do much with it.

Not at all. The design was well intentioned but poorly devised is what I was trying to say.

Rob, we are all qualified to comment on the programs we use just as you probably complain about the car you drive but I doubt that you have much experince in car design.

I disagree that we are all qualified to comment on the competence of the programmers and their coding.

While I am a more than competent mechanic certainly I don't feel qualified to contest the decisions of the manufacturers. Especially considering I always buy from the magnificent Ford Motor Co. :hehe:

Being an expert player of a game doesn't make me an expert in the circumstances of it's developement.

In this case however, I am an expert in the circumstances of it's developement and I know what I am talking about.

The CMP design was placed in the hands of people with little experience in game design. Yes it was ambitious, and we have since learned not to be so ambitious. Damned if we do. Damned if we don't wouldn't you say?

I have spent several years programming for industrial database applications and I feel qualified enough from that experience to know that if something goes wrong it is fair to blame the programmer.

That is quite at odds with what I have learned in my mere decade of experience in the game industry.

That would be nice if I could get ctrl-alt-delete to work.

So you are also experiencing problems with Windows, do you pursue improvement similarly on the Microsoft Windows forums?

Cheers,

~R~

 

[Euphod]

I'd like to know who among us has fixed all our content (to the point where it does not show an error or missing dependency in CMP), and then still has terrible problems with CMP?

I remember when 2006 was first installed on my PC, I remember the trouble I had with CMP hanging and crashing. I didn't like it at first either. The only reason I stayed with 2006 is because 2004 ran so badly for me, it wasn't an option to return to it.

Since I decided 2006 ran better for me (once I got past CMP), I then made the commitment to repair to 10Gb's or so of content I had brought over. Since I completed that task CMP has not given me the smallest bit of trouble. I use it daily, and abuse it daily too! I'm constantly opening folders and files, copying, editing, committing, quick driving, showing in Railyard, etc..........I would not go back to TO and 2004.

That's been my experience folks, I'm curious how many others have fixed their content. It doesn't give anyone "bragging rights", but if the major stumbling block to advancing Trainz is the willingness to repair faulty content, then I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope. If a person doesn't want to work on this hobby, I don't see how they are ever going to move beyond the features and frame rate of 2004.

It is discouraging to think that the community made these problems for it's self. I took umbrage too when Auran first laid the blame of faulty content at the creator's feet, but it seems true enough. Okay, maybe the CCG's weren't fast in coming or all inclusive when they arrived, we can blame each other for the rest of time and not move on. I know I made some mistakes in my content, heck, I just ignored some things I knew were wrong, it didn't matter because 2004 would load it anyway! When you repair about 7Gb's of content though, you see you aren't the only creator that released faulty content! 70% of the content I had downloaded since SP3 had errors. I was able to fix it all in a couple months, and I'm an idiot!(Ask anyone.....)

So, yes, the majority of content is faulty. Clean it up and it works better. If you like, you can stay with 2004, and avoid repairing anything, but don't complain about the new features you'll never see, or the lower frame rates. CMP ain't perfect, but neither is it the horrible monster some believe it is.

I would like to see Trainz and CMP be released as separate programs. I'm willing to wait for code lock, because I really don't want to transfer all my content from version to version. 2006 runs fine, for now. That's not to say Trainz Classics 13 won't lure me with some feature, but for now I am satisfied.

Sorry for the ramble folks, I guess I just mean to say that the content and CMP seem to be the stumbling blocks to advancement. Perhaps error checking could be adjustable from none to full in future versions, that way those that bridle at repairing content can go blissfully along, and those that want performance can repair to their heart's content! Somehow CMP has to be separated from Trainz, in order for all of us to get on the same page.

Ed

 

[narrowgauge]

Rob

We could be embroiled in a continuing argument, that was not my intent.

Two quotes and comments and I will shut up.

I have spent several years programming for industrial database applications and I feel qualified enough from that experience to know that if something goes wrong it is fair to blame the programmer.

That is quite at odds with what I have learned in my mere decade of experience in the game industry.

I thought we were discussing a database, I was. Isn't that what CMP is? Trainz is the game.

That would be nice if I could get ctrl-alt-delete to work.

So you are also experiencing problems with Windows, do you pursue improvement similarly on the Microsoft Windows forums?

I only get that problem when CMP has turned its toes up. Maybe Windows can't cope with CMP but I would not judge it to be a Windows problem.

'Nuff said

Cheers

Narrowgauge.

 

[Zwabberaar]

I have two sets of experiences with TRS06.

The first was is with a Dutch version of the simulator ( no SP1 )

It was my first encounter with both Trainz and CMP and after days of downloading GB's of content it came to a point where it started to crash more often then that it ran properly.

I do remember that it had hundreds of faulty content ( CMP listed it as faulty ). I ignored them for the simple reason I didn't know how to fix them. When I learned how to fix them I began the tedious job but there were just sooo many that I gave up eventually.

When it became clear that the Dutch TRS06 version would never get its SP1 I decided to throw in the towel and quit.

Last summer ( northern hemisphere ) I found out that the German community was finally rewarded with a SP1 version ( to be released as TRS07 ).

When I received my copy I made the pledge to do things differently. This time I controlled the assets I downloaded and made sure that most if not all would be "fixed". I kept the discipline and have only 6 faulty items installed which are beyond repair but needed for one of my favourite routes.

Contrary to my experience with TRS06 this time I hardly ever have a problem with the simulator and or CMP. I do abuse it regularly because I change a lot of configs to re-organize the objects. I open and close many items a day via CCP or via explorer.

I am a very happy CMP user, and although its not a perfect program, it suits my needs. I am convinced that fixing faulty items has a big influence on the program's performance.

 

[zatovisualworks]

I am convinced that fixing faulty items has a big influence on the program's performance.

If not performance, it has an effect on placing, sorting and finding assets on the right 'kind'.

:hehe: Some days ago I had to correct an asset (I wouldn't say the creator's name even if being urged by a judge:hehe which reads on its config.txt:

kind                    "USA"

:hehe: Yes, I know that the USA are such a kind of great country but as trainzy as everyone else. Yet that's an idea; next time I will type on my config's:

kind                     "Alberte's humble stuff"

:hehe:

Alberte :wave:

 

[johnwhelan]

Here's a quick summary of some (not recommended) last resorts I sometimes use when experiencing difficulty...

If CMP fails to start I ctrl+alt+del to see if there is another instance of ContentManager running amongst the processes and end it if there is.

If it seems to have forgotten my login or think I have no FCT etc I check that my C:/Progra~/Auran/TC/Settings folder hasn't any content set to read-only. Then I ensure that the login details are entered.

If it still can't connect I make sure there's no firewall dramas etc.

If it even still can't connect I sometimes choose "Use Internet Explorer Settings" in the CMP settings internet tab which sometimes helps.

If it seems to crash frequently then usually I am on a machine that is chocka block full of DLS content. Sometimes it helps in those situations to go to C:/Progra~/Auran/TRS2006/ and delete the assets.tdx and cache folder; because occasionally the database becomes corrupted for unknown reasons. You need to run TRS2006 after deleting those things before launching CMP again; and it may take a long time to start TRS2006 that first time after deleting the database.

For anyone who missed my previous post, these are things I have noted about running CMP on a wide variety of machines and configurations.

Hope this helps someone.

~R~

Could these comments be placed in a sticky or faq some where easy to find. I know of two people currently unable to use TC or TRS2006 because of startup problems with TC or TRS2006.

My personal view is I much prefer CMP but it does need well documented trouble shooting guide to reduce the frustration factor in less knowledgeably users.

Thanks John

 

[timberdv]

How about using the product the way it was intended.

I have been around for all the versions of Trainz.​

I have read many of the problems that a lot of people have.​

I think the biggest problem is that people expect the program to do anything you ask it to do or try to make it do.​

You read of so many people trying to make all that old content work with Trainz Classics.​

Well you do all those crazy conversions and repairs and other transfers of content and wow! Surprise Surprise, it all doesn't work.​

And who's fault is this? Look in the mirror for a clue.​

Remember, the game has limits. They ( Auran ) told you that a lot of the old stuff wasn't going to work.​

But you knew better. Nobody is going to tell you how to play with your toys.​

Quit you belly aching. Most problems are self inflicted.​

Don't try to blame someone else. If you'll just use it the way it was intended, then there would be much less frustration.​

This game is far from perfect, but it's the best thing going, for now.....​

 

[Barry]

Only academic as trainz and I have now finally parted company. but for the record, on my computer. new 8600gts.

CMP and VISTA do NOT work with Classics (on new computer).
I know about administrator right, close the update, esc, etc.
Locks trainz and computer and control, alt, del, required.
Problem is I only need Surveyor as use ftp and on dial up anyway (with which I am quite happy for my requirements).

So Surveyor became unusable as locks as soon as trying to commit, etc. Only bought for Surveyor.

Perhaps drivers need updating but no intention of changing them as that can create problems with other programs.

So cmp for me is a problem and unusable.
trs2004 and SEPERATE content manager fine.
Routes in classics ran fine.

But all academic as my on/off association with trainz has ended, but posted for the record (full stop).

barry



p.s quote "Quit you belly aching. Most problems are self inflicted. "

Not the best way to encourage new purchasers perhaps, who are thr most important factor for sales and what really counts, not the posts from a few on these forums.

 

[Padster]

Barry, you say that your association with Trainz has ended, yet you are still lurking on the forum. What are you hoping to gain from that?

I have to say that Trainz has been a great program for me, and I am happy with my 2004 version. It does everything I want it to, and works fine with my RailDriver.

Best wishes,
Padster

 

[johnwhelan]

Barry, you say that your association with Trainz has ended, yet you are still lurking on the forum. What are you hoping to gain from that?

I have to say that Trainz has been a great program for me, and I am happy with my 2004 version. It does everything I want it to, and works fine with my RailDriver.

Best wishes,
Padster

Let's get this straight, some one who has purchased a number of different versions of Trainz directly from Auran, which means Auran got the full $ amount not the usual 15%, contributed 150 items to the DLS, a number of which have been downloaded more than 20,000 times and has indirectly contributed more items to the DLS. Who happens to have a fair number of models already created in Blender that just need a decent exporter. I don't care what he hopes to gain, I'm just very pleased he still floats around.

I think he has identified a problem that could affect future sales of Auran's products and that is ease of use of CMP.

We know enough about cmp to say that it can be a cause of frustration. Rob has come up with a list of things to try to get it running when it has a problem. It probably just needs a decent set of easily followed procedures for trouble shooting.

At the end of the day Auran needs to sell more software to pay salaries etc. CMP has many good points but it could be made a little more robust.

If Auran have the choice between encouraging someone who has contributed to the DLS, brought multiple versions of Trainz and identifies problems that if solved would hopefully encourage more sales and some one who doesn't seem to have contributed to the DLS, runs an old version of the software and is content to infer the newer stuff isn't worth the money what would your advice be?

Remember get it wrong and Auran no longer exists.

Cheerio John