Computer Expert Needed !!!

Yes John you have been a great help not only to me but I'm sure others who have been reading this thread, I don't have any history with computers which is why I find it all so confusing, for example when I go to one of my station areas that has many many items making it up it takes quite a while for all the bits to pop into place, so is this the graphics card which causes this delay or another part of the computer ? and is it possible to get it to almost instantly be there ?
PJ

If its your own route then the answer is yes there are things you can do to improve matters, if its some one elses you can change a few things but the low hanging fruit has probably already been picked.

When you use an item for the first time Trainz has to pull it in from the hard drive, hard drive access time is measured in milliseconds, it gets stored in memory, access time nano seconds. 10,000 nano seconds equals one millisecond so by having 2+ gigs of memory you save a lot of hard drive accesses.

Second the work required by the game is split between the cpu and the graphics card. The driver on the graphics card tells the operating system the capabilities of the card. Trainz is written to only use one cpu even if two are present. Windows however understands how to use multiple cpus on the graphics card, except they are called stream processors or something similar on the graphics cards. Low end graphics cards do not know about 3d shapes such a cube so the cpu has to do the work, high end graphic cards understand what a cubes and cylinders so off load the cpu.

The textures have to be applied by the graphics card so you need to read them in from disk into pc memory then transfer them into the memory on the graphics card. More memory on the graphics card means it only has to be transferred across once. Less work more speed.

When you arrive at a station often you are seeing items for the first time and there is a lot of new items. Also many items have more polys for more detail. The size of the object doesn't matter, but texture does since that is what you see. Take a look at church lane, one of mine, it looks very realistic since it is basically a series of photographs pasted on a box. Poly count is 12, extremely low for a building yet it is 128 feet long and 24 feet deep so quite large. It needs a separate roof by the way.

So select items that are low in polys where possible. The other thing to do is reduce variety, Trainz is good at remembering something is a copy of what is has just worked out. So 12 different trees repeated 12 times has a much lower impact than 144 different trees and most people won't notice the difference, especially if you rotate them. Also beware of smoking chimneys the smoke takes cpu processing power so you get a frame rate hit, that varies according to how much smoke is being emitted. Note the locos and rolling stock in the shot all have the be calculated as well so heavily detailed items that don't use lod will slow the station shots down more than lighter items. Also six carriages the same is a lighter load than six different carriages. Ones with interiors and people you can see sitting inside all need to be calculated as well so are more demanding than simple blocks with textures applied.

The next thing is to try to get things into memory before the station shot. Odd items used in the station shot such as a cottage can be added to the line side before the station so they are already in memory, and their tetxures already in the graphics card memory.

There are a number of other techniques such as using lod (level of detail), this is using lower poly meshes which are faster to load and process when you are further away.

Have a look at how the sucessful layouts work and you may be able to pick up the techniques. Talking to people who have done this sort of thing helps as well.

The other technique is just to throw raw horse power at the problem, ie fast cpus and heavy graphics cards even then it helps to understand Trainzoptions.txt and so forth. There is a beginners thread somewhere that contains a lot of this infromation and its well worth a read. If you are into creating layouts look through the TRS206 content creation guide and other documentation that is lying around.

Cheerio John
 
Great advice as usual John, thank you.
Its interesting that you and others have talked about cutting down on detail and using just a few of something, whereas coming from a Model railroad background I have striven all my modelling life to increase detail to maximum effect often spending hours or days on a small scene adding more and more detail. This seems to run counter to the Trainz method of doing things.
I think I'll send Dell a copy of Trainz and let them sort out which of their systems runs it !! ( thats a joke btw !! )
PJ
 
Great advice as usual John, thank you.
Its interesting that you and others have talked about cutting down on detail and using just a few of something, whereas coming from a Model railroad background I have striven all my modelling life to increase detail to maximum effect often spending hours or days on a small scene adding more and more detail. This seems to run counter to the Trainz method of doing things.
I think I'll send Dell a copy of Trainz and let them sort out which of their systems runs it !! ( thats a joke btw !! )
PJ

Yes but you do things differently in Trainz. Take a look at sirgibbys layouts, DEM for the ground so very accurate hills. The small details are there but each view is a careful balence of visual impact and poly count. You'll find animated models there doing things that are very difficult to do in the model railway world. Also if you use textures that helps a lot, for example Penryn Pavement 128 feet KUID: 86627:1696 is just a box so low poly impact but it has a high visual impact.

It's a different sort of modelling and in some ways just throwing horse power at it and using more conventional modelling technics means you can get some extremely nice effects. Shoves background for example is graphics not computers so some items he creates are a little more poly heavy than some one else who sits and counts every poly, but they are very nice and having the horse power available means you can use them. Basically you need to blend a knowledge of how things work in the computer world with a knowledge of how things should be modelled. A loose team approach works well, for example Bob Sanders whom I work with is much better on the research side than I am, Chris Nawlins does much of the beta testing of new wagons and carriages for us. These days I tend to do more on the computer side, building or resizing a mesh, working out how to add running numbers, if you download any recent work from me or Bob you'll note that each repeated carriage has a different number on the side, curtsey of a script by Eldavo. Bob does more texturing, I adjust the position of the running numbers and try to work down my to do list, Chris double checks etc. Bob also sorts out the web site that is on the end of this note. We work with other beta testers as well, sometimes we are too close to the problem and we have a couple who throw in the odd comment or two which points us back in the right direction. Especially true when it comes to a question of is this worth the extra polys?

When one of the layout designers whom we work with requires something they throw in a request to the email group and sometimes I'll pick it up or sometimes someone else will pick it up. Sometimes it gets left on the todo list but not that often.

Cheerio John

 
Back from yet another weekend gallavanting about and so only just read this, sorry for not seeing it sooner.

As John said above, we do tend to overpoly a bit especially when we're doing something either quick or complex or sometimes both and this can have an impact on frame rates if the machine doesn't have the horsepower. Most of our content gets tested on our chunky laptop in UTC which has 768 MB of memory on it and an ATI mobility radeon graphics thing, it's not a separate card I don't think but shares it with the RAM. We also have a whizz-bang all-singing all dancing brute that we fear is going to take over the world. The reason we test on the chunky laptop is we know that if UTC can handle our stuff without toppling on it, there's a reasonable chance that it won't kill off a similar spec and will run well on a higher spec. We estimate that it gets a bit stressed at about 100,000 polys and starts going into a bit of a slide show, and although we've managed to slow it right down by having the textures up high, the accelerator on full, the particles at max, no fog, draw distance at the top of the slider and the ground covered all over with ours and other creator's models we've never yet toppled it completely (though it did groan a lot!)
Currently we are endeavouring to reduce our poly count in figures as it's come to our attention that some have concerns over them, but inevitably the less polys the less detail. To compensate we can use the texture maps and detail the art rather than the physical model, but this isn't a true 3d representation and never can be; however it's a good compromise as long as nobody expects super-forming on the meshes themselves. Another thing we usually do is put barge-boards on our buildings as we think they benefit from it- but this puts another 48 polys on. If we do night lighting this can put more polys on and we didn't used to and still don't on some, but people have said they prefer illumination at night and so we balance it out now.
We've actually learnt a lot from modelling Trainz objects so although we do it as a hobby it pays off in other areas too and not just graphics and CGI. Some of the ways of inventing and thinking round corners have helped in physical model making too. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?:D
 
Back from yet another weekend gallavanting about and so only just read this, sorry for not seeing it sooner.

As John said above, we do tend to overpoly a bit especially when we're doing something either quick or complex or sometimes both and this can have an impact on frame rates if the machine doesn't have the horsepower. Most of our content gets tested on our chunky laptop in UTC which has 768 MB of memory on it and an ATI mobility radeon graphics thing, it's not a separate card I don't think but shares it with the RAM. We also have a whizz-bang all-singing all dancing brute that we fear is going to take over the world. The reason we test on the chunky laptop is we know that if UTC can handle our stuff without toppling on it, there's a reasonable chance that it won't kill off a similar spec and will run well on a higher spec. We estimate that it gets a bit stressed at about 100,000 polys and starts going into a bit of a slide show, and although we've managed to slow it right down by having the textures up high, the accelerator on full, the particles at max, no fog, draw distance at the top of the slider and the ground covered all over with ours and other creator's models we've never yet toppled it completely (though it did groan a lot!)
Currently we are endeavouring to reduce our poly count in figures as it's come to our attention that some have concerns over them, but inevitably the less polys the less detail. To compensate we can use the texture maps and detail the art rather than the physical model, but this isn't a true 3d representation and never can be; however it's a good compromise as long as nobody expects super-forming on the meshes themselves. Another thing we usually do is put barge-boards on our buildings as we think they benefit from it- but this puts another 48 polys on. If we do night lighting this can put more polys on and we didn't used to and still don't on some, but people have said they prefer illumination at night and so we balance it out now.
We've actually learnt a lot from modelling Trainz objects so although we do it as a hobby it pays off in other areas too and not just graphics and CGI. Some of the ways of inventing and thinking round corners have helped in physical model making too. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?:D

The polys used when making an object are important but more important is the way they are used or a layout is created. 100 different low poly objects will probably have a higher impact than 10 higher poly objects repeated 10 times but rotated to shwo different sides.

Assembling them makes the difference. Agatha is one that is quite demanding but put together quite well. LITTLE HOWis another that manages to capture an atmosphere. Sirgibby's pay attention to this as well. These are just examples that spring to mind though not necessarily the best of the DLS just ones that I remember at the moment.

Cheerio John
 
I found that using a lot of the tracks under Australia and United Kingdom (for example the stuff used on the Wadabale Line) can really rip through performance on any computer hardware, specially the 2m pieces - Ive made a 5 track yard with the 2m pieces and my laptop was just choking on it .. unsure what was wrong I copied it to my beefy PC (Core2 X6800, 2GB RAM, GeForce 8800 GTX) and it still chocked on it ..
 
OK,
Trainz Command Line Options.doc
is Not in TRS2004. I found it in my copy of Trainz 1.3. It is probably in UTC also.
Try a forum search for it and you might find a link or something.:eek:
 
I'll have a look in Trainz2006 and having found out that this file has a default, I might be able to increase performance and slow down the launch screens so I can read the tips page. The bloody thing just flashes up so fast I can't see what the tip is.
 
Draw Distance and frame rates.

I am trying to find out why the frame rates suffer so much when the draw distance is increased even more with the handy tool that you can use for unlimited distance, awsome for screen shots but very bad for for frame rates.:confused: I have been told that it all has to do with the front side bus speed, and if you have only 400mhz ddr pc3200 that is a very large bottleneck.:eek: I am attempting to build a new AMD2 system, the AMD2 with at least 800mhz front side bus or maybe even the 1200mhz overclocked using a 128 pixel stream pipeline 8800gtx ultra single video card and a AMD 6000+ cpu. :) I will know more in about a month or so. If this does not help then you can just chalk it up to the auran jet engine is just plane bad,:mad: and there is nothing you can do about it except and hope that auran will build a better video engine.:eek: I had done some testing with the draw distance slid way up and what I had noticed is that during the jerky video motion that the hard drives were not even getting hit for access whatsoever, that tells me that it is the computer's memory is bottle necking or the video card memory is not large enough or to slow. The 8800gt will have at least 768mb of memory 384 bit interface, and 1600mhz memory speed. Something will have to give, you would think with this much hardware improvement? Only time will tell. I will keep you all posted. Thank you for reading this.:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Please DO keep us posted. I am considering having a new computer put together for me this year and am extremely interested in seeing your results.
 
Well thanks for all the comments it seems its not only me who has system problems, Looking at the Dell site I'll prob go for the following :

Dimension 9200 Intel ViiV 2 duo core 2.4ghz 4MB cache
Windows XP ( I hate Vista !!! )
Memory : 2048 MB 677mhz ( 2 x 1024
Hard Drive 640GB
Graphics Card : nVidia Ge Force 7900GS

I hope to see am improvement over my current system ( details on first page )

Anyone got any comments on what I plan to buy ?
PJ
 
This week's latest machine from Dell:

http://www.geardigest.com/2007/05/22/dell_xps_720_h2c_hot_and_cool/

What you have selected looks reasonable.

I might go a second hard drive just so I could back up data more easily but these days with USB 2 drives adding on an external drive is fairly simple. The other thing I might do is look up the machine on www.crucial.com and buy another 512 Mb of RAM in two 256 Mb sticks.

Sorry about the delay in getting back but I had to slip over to the UK for a couple of days.

Cheerio John
 
Back
Top