Campain to retain full dls for 04/06 and fellas lets keep this one clean

marinemania

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This a side thread to the other closed thread to retain full dls for 04/06. And I will be reporting and deleting and maintaining this thread daily so you'd better not blow this one like the other thread. Plus we've got younger eyes on this site too. So the point for this thread is to continue the Campain to retain full DLS acess for TRS04/06 before september this year. And remember I saw the problem on the other thread we can discuss that problem here and please no swearing because it was bad enough on the other thread.
 
G,Day, This may be a bit of a lost cause as I don't believe it is a case of the storage space or cost (as that would be off set by FCT's), it is just that it does not suite nv3's agenda to allow this even though they could make money from it.
Regards
Barrie
 
-Content going to third party sites makes CM? useless.
-Endless CDP hunts and registering on multiple sites.
-Third party sites means no error checking for compatibility with new versions.
-Less content coming to the DLS means less to choose for the next release.
-Competing sites means less exposure to newer releases, less publicity. Why come here if there's nothing to offer.
-Times are tough and some may not be able to upgrade their systems at this time.
-New content is going to take time. Is it wise to cut and run just yet? The community may need more time and support to adopt new ways. Most will upgrade eventually, better to do it here through attrition then one drop of the hammer.
-Most content is useable by any Trainz user. Build number is irrelevant, how it is built is.
-I have a newer version but it doesn't suit my needs at this time. Maybe TS2011 will. Why cut off a repeat customer who decided to skip a version because he decides to use an older version until then.
-The DLS is cheaper than a team to build new content.

All this MAY add to a new user's frustration and affect repeat customers and sales. More compatibility issues may also perpetuate most train simmer's view of Trainz, that it is a model train game with content issues as far as errors and finding dependencies.

Dave......
 
Hi Dave,

Good to see some thoughtful comments on this subject rather than the usual repetitions. Here's a few answers to the questions you pose, taken from our perspective.


-Content going to third party sites makes CM? useless.

It removes one specific use for CM in the unsupported products. It doesn't remove the other uses for CM in those products, and it doesn't affect the supported products.


-Endless CDP hunts and registering on multiple sites.

This only affects people who choose not to upgrade their version of Trainz. As I've noted before, we don't really consider these people to be our customers- they may have been at one point in the past, but with limited exceptions they are either no longer our customers (ie. those who choose not to spend money on our current products), or in some cases are actively working against our business model (ie. those who actively try to convince others to avoid our current products.) There is no business case to be made for sponsoring the activities of these users past the end-of-support dates for the products.


-Third party sites means no error checking for compatibility with new versions.

We certainly recommend that freeware content for supported versions be uploaded to the DLS. The ability to provide an integrated download service for our customers is the reason that we maintain the DLS, and performing error checking is part of that service.


-Less content coming to the DLS means less to choose for the next release.

As a blanket statement, this isn't really accurate. Having content available on the DLS certainly benefits us, but there lots of reasons why DLS content is a poor choice for a Trainz release. We certainly need to avoid relying on the DLS as a primary content source.


-Competing sites means less exposure to newer releases, less publicity. Why come here if there's nothing to offer.

Integration. Trainz is our product, not the DLS. The reason we host the DLS is to improve the Trainz environment. FCTs are there to offset costs in exchange for relaxing the download quotas.


-Times are tough and some may not be able to upgrade their systems at this time.

I don't disagree. This isn't a strong business case for keeping the DLS open to people who don't contribute to the running costs, however. "Hard times" affects companies as much as end-users.


-New content is going to take time. Is it wise to cut and run just yet? The community may need more time and support to adopt new ways. Most will upgrade eventually, better to do it here through attrition then one drop of the hammer.

We're decided on four years as a reasonable term for people to adopt new ways. This seems quite generous, especially where the new ways are typically very similar to the old ways.


-Most content is useable by any Trainz user. Build number is irrelevant, how it is built is.

This is true, and there are a few answers to this question- some technical and some practical. The simplest answer is that the build number gives us a fair indication of how the content is built. A lot of modern features and optimisations simply didn't exist for the older content versions.


-I have a newer version but it doesn't suit my needs at this time. Maybe TS2011 will. Why cut off a repeat customer who decided to skip a version because he decides to use an older version until then.

We're not cutting you off - this is clearly stated on the policy page. We won't be allowing new content for the old versions on our site, however. If you're happy with your existing build and content, then great- but if you're not, then there will come a time that it's worth your while to upgrade.


-The DLS is cheaper than a team to build new content.

And a small car is cheaper than a bus. That doesn't mean that we should replace busses with small cars - both have their place.


All this MAY add to a new user's frustration and affect repeat customers and sales. More compatibility issues may also perpetuate most train simmer's view of Trainz, that it is a model train game with content issues as far as errors and finding dependencies.

Reducing new-user frustration and content problems is exactly why we're taking this step.

chris
 
I'm sorry guys, but you were warned. Any further threads on this topic will be closed. Please understand, we do not wish to do this, however a number of users have shown that they cannot keep personal remarks out of this topic.

Please ensure that you read the COC, and that your posts meets these conditions prior to posting.

Thank you for your cooperation.
 
Hello marinemania

Zec is correct here. I know you mean well, but as you have surely seen, these threads tend to be a place for dissing between one group or another or maybe like 6. :)

Cheers

Closed Again

AJ
 
On second thought I will reopen this thread because of the helpful comments by Chris; however if this returns to an off topic diss fest, I will close it again.

Cheers

AJ
 
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Good to see some thoughtful comments on this subject rather than the usual repetitions....

This only affects people who choose not to upgrade their version of Trainz. As I've noted before, we don't really consider these people to be our customers- they may have been at one point in the past, but with limited exceptions they are either no longer our customers (ie. those who choose not to spend money on our current products), or in some cases are actively working against our business model (ie. those who actively try to convince others to avoid our current products.) There is no business case to be made for sponsoring the activities of these users past the end-of-support dates for the products.

chris

Chris I read and understand what you say here, but in all honesty I think you are being somewhat selective in your interpretation of those who continue to use older versions.

I have installed and working on my computer at the moment TRS04, TRS06 and TS2010. TS09 is in a box in a drawer, it is uninstalled since there seems little point in having 09 and10 installed simultaneously. I love Trainz and I have supported Auran/N3V every step of the way since Trainz 1.3. I have had FCT's successively for years. I have given you about as much support financially as anyone.

There are aspects of TS2010 which I would LOVE to exploit, and I certainly plan to build 'Native Mode' routes in the future once there is sufficient error-free content. I wait especially for good quality realistic lo-poly freeware 3D trees. Until such time as they become available (and they will - somebody will crack it) I am stuck in older versions. TS2010 in 'Compatibility Mode' with lots of Alpha trees is simply not as good a platform as TRS06. I have busted myself to find a set of alpha trees which will run in TS10 Comp Mode as well as they do in 06, or which look anything better than awful in 'Native Mode'. AFAIK there aren't any.

This is not a criticism, a whinge, or the ravings of a recalcitrant Luddite holdout. It is simply the statement of a fact.

I continue to build routes in 04 and run them in 06 because - for me - that is the best Trainz currently has to offer. I will move on to later versions (which I remind you I already own and have installed) when the newer versions offer what I need.

Hopefully some day soon they will...

Andy :)
 
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There are aspects of TS2010 which I would LOVE to exploit, and I certainly plan to build 'Native Mode' routes in the future once there is sufficient error-free content.

Ensuring that there is plenty of error-free content readily available is one of the driving factors behind our changes to the DLS.


I wait especially for good quality realistic lo-poly freeware 3D trees.

We're committed to high-poly modelling. A large part of our user-base at this point have machines which can handle higher-quality content, and most of those who don't can be expected to upgrade over the next year or so.

While some of our users do prefer the old approach for valid reasons of their own, it's safe to say that if we don't keep moving forward, we'll eventually be left in the dust like the old DOS-era simulators.

kind regards,

chris
 
I would have thought that buying FCT's qualified a person as a customer regardless of what version of Trainz he or she owns? I don't imagine that any number of forum threads or petitions will make any difference given the "no longer customers" attitude". I have TRS UTC-2010 and use mainly TC3 and 2010, so stopping the uploading of 2004 content won't effect me, but the content I've made has been to 2004 build so it could be used by more people and I would like that to continue.
 
I would have thought that buying FCT's qualified a person as a customer regardless of what version of Trainz he or she owns?

Indeed it does, and we've documented that case explicitly.


I don't imagine that any number of forum threads or petitions will make any difference given the "no longer customers" attitude".

You're right, it won't. I'm happy to discuss the reasoning behind the changes so that everyone's aware of what's going on, but the policy was developed for some pretty firm business reasons and we won't be changing it in any significant way.


I have TRS UTC-2010 and use mainly TC3 and 2010, so stopping the uploading of 2004 content won't effect me, but the content I've made has been to 2004 build so it could be used by more people and I would like that to continue.

We have no plans to change the availability of existing content for people who have DLS access, except where that content is faulty or unusable in some other fashion.

DLS access has never been free to the public- it requires a valid product key or FCT. After the end-of-support date for each product, the product keys in question may cease to provide access to the DLS.

kind regards,

chris
 
I am only after some clarification on this. We do not need a flame war on any replies.

I know that after September there will be no more assets allowed for uploading to the DLS for TRS2004/6 and below.

What i would like to know is ..

Will we still be able to download from the DLS to these versions of Trainz if we have a FCT.?

Is the DLS only going to be cleared of faulty assets for these versions of Trainz.?

It is only after carefully reading what Zec and chris Have stated in previous posts that i ask this.

Other posters seem to confuse the issue with their own interpretation as to what is going to happen.

I would like Zec or chris to give clarification on this issue. Any other replies are welcome.
 
After the end-of-support date for each product, the product keys in question may cease to provide access to the DLS.

kind regards,

chris

I thought I had this sussed, not any more! This statement seems to contradict my previous impression, that people with 04/06 would have access to the DLS, but only to download content already on there, applicable to those versions.
You seem to be saying they will not have access at all. What about their FCTs??

Clarification, would be much appreciated.

Regards Bruce
 
After the end-of-support date for each product, the product keys in question may cease to provide access to the DLS.


Are you saying people with TRS2004 and TRS2006 might still be able to download from DLS. I have TRS2006. What about downloading by FTP
John
 
Time to end all this. Upgrade to 2010 and move on, I think we have all had enough.

Bill

Sure, buy me the computer system to run it and I would be more then happy to buy the TS2010 program.



This is my last statement on the subject. This is a 3rd party driven program. Most of the senior content creators are still using TRS2004/06. The reason is that older programs are more stable then the newer versions. Another guess is that TRS2010 just dosen't offer anything new or interesting. I looked at it and it dosen't intrest me at all.
Auran is cutting off it's right hand buy cutting off the TRS2004/06 content from the DL Station.
 
Chris,
Fair answers. I do have one question of what constitutes a customer though. When I ordered 09 at the beginning of this year, all versions of Trainz were available from your site down to 04. It was only recently they were removed from your site.

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=55240

Take this guy for example. It is quite possible someone like him came here, researched a bit and made a decision to purchase an older version. Doesn't he qualify as a recent customer. The decision to move that version to the unsupported list could have happened while it was still in shipment from you. I would be pretty peeved if a product I purchased direct would loose DLS access just months after purchase. Something that would impact my ever purchasing again.

You offered support for a very long time, sure. But, you were still offering those products for sale the whole time as well. I fully understand the stance on those who haven't purchased for a very long time. These changes could affect people who don't fall into that category though. Not to mention what is still on the shelves and the unsuspecting who don't come here. A build number doesn't necessarily reflect date of purchase.

Not trying to bust your chops, did that once when someone else had me fired up and still feel bad about it. Just playing a bit of devil's advocate and give a view from the other side of the fence. I don't own every version of Trainz and probably never will. I just hope some of these decisions don't have a negative impact on the company. I enjoy the program and just because I'm sitting this one out doesn't mean the next will not interest me.

Dave....
 
This only affects people who choose not to upgrade their version of Trainz. As I've noted before, we don't really consider these people to be our customers- they may have been at one point in the past, but with limited exceptions they are either no longer our customers (ie. those who choose not to spend money on our current products), or in some cases are actively working against our business model (ie. those who actively try to convince others to avoid our current products.) There is no business case to be made for sponsoring the activities of these users past the end-of-support dates for the products.
Chris has put his finger on the point that is getting up a lot of people's noses (including mine). If you want to use an older version fine, that's your choice but don't go sabotaging the attempts to make a better sim by actually recommending the old ones. A fair few doing the recommending don't even have TS2010, but they've heard it's no good...
Take this guy for example. It is quite possible someone like him came here, researched a bit and made a decision to purchase an older version. Doesn't he qualify as a recent customer. The decision to move that version to the unsupported list could have happened while it was still in shipment from you. I would be pretty peeved if a product I purchased direct would loose DLS access just months after purchase. Something that would impact my ever purchasing again.
I'd say that someone purchasing software that says '2004' on the box should be aware that it's not the latest and greatest and support may well be minimal or non-existant. I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to work out that if I'm paying about the price of a cup of coffee for a piece of software then it's effectively a demo version.

Paul
 
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