I am sure the original designers had a very good reason for, what may appear to you to be, an odd baseboard size. As for changing it - well I suppose we could all throw away the last few months/years of work on routes and start again - because that is what changing the size would probably mean !
Baseboards
- Thread starter Maddox61
- Start date
I am sure the original designers had a very good reason for, what may appear to you to be, an odd baseboard size. As for changing it - well I suppose we could all throw away the last few months/years of work on routes and start again - because that is what changing the size would probably mean !
The good reason the baseboard designers had for a 270 m limit, is likely that at the time the game engine was developed, memory for machines was measured in Megabytes, not Gigabytes, and in similarly, speed of machines was considerably slower, too.
I assume that each intersection in the grid is an address to a location in a data structure in which the name of any objects, including structures, track, geological textures, cameras, are recorded. Further, Trainz is not a static render, but a dynamic one; objects have to be rendered so as to appear to move in relation to each other, and a lot of points need to be rendered in each cycle. Also, monitor sizes have increased dramatically. When Trainz first appeared, sVGA monitors had 800 x 600 resoution. Rendering for a 1600 x 900 resoution monitor requires three times the processing power to achieve an image in the same speed as rendering for the sVGA.
I expect that there have been improvements to the game engine that are not immediately obvious, and I would expect that at some point the game engine will be redone to incorporate changes in hardware and software technology. But I still think it's a heck of a bargain given the cost of the software, and what one can achieve with it.
ns
I assume that each intersection in the grid is an address to a location in a data structure in which the name of any objects, including structures, track, geological textures, cameras, are recorded. Further, Trainz is not a static render, but a dynamic one; objects have to be rendered so as to appear to move in relation to each other, and a lot of points need to be rendered in each cycle. Also, monitor sizes have increased dramatically. When Trainz first appeared, sVGA monitors had 800 x 600 resoution. Rendering for a 1600 x 900 resoution monitor requires three times the processing power to achieve an image in the same speed as rendering for the sVGA.
I expect that there have been improvements to the game engine that are not immediately obvious, and I would expect that at some point the game engine will be redone to incorporate changes in hardware and software technology. But I still think it's a heck of a bargain given the cost of the software, and what one can achieve with it.
ns
mezzoprezzo
Content appreciator
What’s the advantage in having a different baseboard size?
I see no advantage in having any particular size, provided it is consistent and square.
As soon as an additional baseboard is added you pretty soon lose sight of the join, other than the height differential prior to terrain forming and the occasional faint shady texture line.
If the argument is to assist in laying track to specific mileages, then this would only work with railways laid to perfect E-W or N-S alignment, and then only if track is laid before the next baseboard is extended. Otherwise, you can’t see the join!
Once you start laying track at an angle you would lose any advantage. The diagonal measurement of the 720m square baseboard is 1018.2337m. A one kilometre square baseboard would give you a diagonal of 1414.2135m. A one mile square baseboard would give you a diagonal of 2489.0158 yards (1.4142135 miles). You would therefore still need to use rulers to pinpoint your distances for track laying the moment you divert from any of the parallel gridlines.
There may be some small advantage in applying a basemap with one mile, (or one kilometre), reference lines on the map image. However, once the learning curve for successfully achieving basemaps has been climbed, applying any scale map over any baseboard size in no real problem.
Perhaps I’m missing something, but what would be the plus points in changing from the existing?
Cheers
Casper
I see no advantage in having any particular size, provided it is consistent and square.
As soon as an additional baseboard is added you pretty soon lose sight of the join, other than the height differential prior to terrain forming and the occasional faint shady texture line.
If the argument is to assist in laying track to specific mileages, then this would only work with railways laid to perfect E-W or N-S alignment, and then only if track is laid before the next baseboard is extended. Otherwise, you can’t see the join!
Once you start laying track at an angle you would lose any advantage. The diagonal measurement of the 720m square baseboard is 1018.2337m. A one kilometre square baseboard would give you a diagonal of 1414.2135m. A one mile square baseboard would give you a diagonal of 2489.0158 yards (1.4142135 miles). You would therefore still need to use rulers to pinpoint your distances for track laying the moment you divert from any of the parallel gridlines.
There may be some small advantage in applying a basemap with one mile, (or one kilometre), reference lines on the map image. However, once the learning curve for successfully achieving basemaps has been climbed, applying any scale map over any baseboard size in no real problem.
Perhaps I’m missing something, but what would be the plus points in changing from the existing?
Cheers
Casper
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New PC
To answer a couple questions, My PC is brand new. I baught it less than 2 months ago. My fault, I baught a HP p6823 62bit win7 with 4gig ram.
I was told that since I had a 250 power supply, that it may have an effect on the mother board if I try to replace it with a 400w.
I would like to upgrade to 8gigs of ram with a nice upper end GeForce or Radeon video card. But as before, I don't have close to the power I need. And if I replace the ram, videocard, power supply, I would have to replace the motherboard. The only thing left is the tower cabinet, less the dvd drives.
Not knowing much about PCs in gen. I had baught this PC soley to use for Trainz. And when I contacted HP, I gave them the system requirements and explained what I was going to be doing and this was there referral.
This is why I feel having a PC made for such as creating assets for Trainz is the best bet.
Thanks fo the input.
Merrill
To answer a couple questions, My PC is brand new. I baught it less than 2 months ago. My fault, I baught a HP p6823 62bit win7 with 4gig ram.
I was told that since I had a 250 power supply, that it may have an effect on the mother board if I try to replace it with a 400w.
I would like to upgrade to 8gigs of ram with a nice upper end GeForce or Radeon video card. But as before, I don't have close to the power I need. And if I replace the ram, videocard, power supply, I would have to replace the motherboard. The only thing left is the tower cabinet, less the dvd drives.
Not knowing much about PCs in gen. I had baught this PC soley to use for Trainz. And when I contacted HP, I gave them the system requirements and explained what I was going to be doing and this was there referral.
This is why I feel having a PC made for such as creating assets for Trainz is the best bet.
Thanks fo the input.
Merrill
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Baseboard
Ok, So I have been all over looking for a solution for creating terrain.
I have tried a couple of different ways. Not yet have tried the Microdem.
Still a bit leary of that program. I have seen many people using it and noted that most of the info is for winXP not win7.
So, one way I have triedis to actualy create a 1km x 1km plain in Blender, Texture it using an image of teh terrian and use this to create an asset in Trainz.
When I did this, it worked pretty good, with the exception that after I got 10 plains loaded, the LOD would start effecting the map and as I tried to adjust there position, they would disappear.
The other way was to create one large map, 8km x 8km and load it in the same way with less trouble than trying to position all the smaller maps. Only problem here was, after adjusting the view, I could only get so far across the plain when the entire image would disappear.
Here is a pic of one of the many, many , many maps I have for this.
this map is exactly 1km square.
Ok, So I have been all over looking for a solution for creating terrain.
I have tried a couple of different ways. Not yet have tried the Microdem.
Still a bit leary of that program. I have seen many people using it and noted that most of the info is for winXP not win7.
So, one way I have triedis to actualy create a 1km x 1km plain in Blender, Texture it using an image of teh terrian and use this to create an asset in Trainz.
When I did this, it worked pretty good, with the exception that after I got 10 plains loaded, the LOD would start effecting the map and as I tried to adjust there position, they would disappear.
The other way was to create one large map, 8km x 8km and load it in the same way with less trouble than trying to position all the smaller maps. Only problem here was, after adjusting the view, I could only get so far across the plain when the entire image would disappear.
Here is a pic of one of the many, many , many maps I have for this.
this map is exactly 1km square.
Microdem works perfectly well in Win7 without any fiddling. Just don't stick in Program Files.
So, any ideas on getting about 300 of these pics loaded.
The route I am working on will not require this much area. A large number of these maps will only use like the edge or corner of the image. My plans are to keep the route itself limited to 1 Baseboard wide, or 720km.
I did find that I was a bit off on the miles. The distance from Cannon City, Colorado to Salida, Colorado is 154.92 miles or 249.3km. This is running out Highway 50. The track runs along the north bank of the Arkansas River, while Highway 50 runs down the south bank. This road pretty much runs the entire distance of the train route. So milage is very close.
The only thing that is going to make this doable is that most of the layout is nothing more than trees and rocks, with a very fiew buildings. There are a couple quarries along the way but nothing major.
If I could get the map loaded I could sculpt the terrain manualy with no problem.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Merrill
The route I am working on will not require this much area. A large number of these maps will only use like the edge or corner of the image. My plans are to keep the route itself limited to 1 Baseboard wide, or 720km.
I did find that I was a bit off on the miles. The distance from Cannon City, Colorado to Salida, Colorado is 154.92 miles or 249.3km. This is running out Highway 50. The track runs along the north bank of the Arkansas River, while Highway 50 runs down the south bank. This road pretty much runs the entire distance of the train route. So milage is very close.
The only thing that is going to make this doable is that most of the layout is nothing more than trees and rocks, with a very fiew buildings. There are a couple quarries along the way but nothing major.
If I could get the map loaded I could sculpt the terrain manualy with no problem.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Merrill
Thanks Malc,
I guess I will try this today.
For the record, I use no virus protection at all on this PC, as most slow my PC down. I simply don't load or open what I don't know about. I have another PC that I use for the internet. This one I only use for Trainz and modeling. In a sence, It is like an expensive Playstation.
The warnings are coming from windows itself.
Thanks again,
Merrill
Ok,
So I have loaded Microdem but have a big question.
This program is going to require a large amount of time in learning. SO, when I get done, if I am understanding this right, using MicroDem, I will be creating a 3D map and loading this into trainz and then all I need to do from there is add the texture to the terrain. Or, does MicroDem simply create an elevation map, sort of like the one I listed earlier, and used to adjust the ellevation using the tools in the surveyor.
If it will create the terrian for me, it will be worth learning. If not, It would take less time to create the terain manualy than to take the time to learn such an indepth program.
Thanks
Merrill
So I have loaded Microdem but have a big question.
This program is going to require a large amount of time in learning. SO, when I get done, if I am understanding this right, using MicroDem, I will be creating a 3D map and loading this into trainz and then all I need to do from there is add the texture to the terrain. Or, does MicroDem simply create an elevation map, sort of like the one I listed earlier, and used to adjust the ellevation using the tools in the surveyor.
If it will create the terrian for me, it will be worth learning. If not, It would take less time to create the terain manualy than to take the time to learn such an indepth program.
Thanks
Merrill
It creates the terrain for you, much the same as Transdem also does, basically it creates the mapfile.gnd file
A screenshot of the route I'm building using Microdem and Hog as an example of what you can do using Microdem or for that matter Transdem
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
It creates the terrain for you, much the same as Transdem also does, basically it creates the mapfile.gnd file
A screenshot of the route I'm building using Microdem and Hog as an example of what you can do using Microdem or for that matter Transdem
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Thanks for the info,
I guess it's back to school for me. Or since I'm new to Trainz, should I say it's time to add a class.
I also hear a lot about Hog, but I guess you know what I get when I type it into the search engines.
So, what is hog.
Thanks,
Merrill
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Hey Malc,
Sorry to keep being a bother. I found that site earlier, but that file was cerated in 2002. Will this still work on ts2009?
Thanks again,
Merrill
Yes I've used it with 2009 2010 and TS12 works in everything from XP to Win7 64 bit. Used it this year with Microdem to add a bit more on my route.
Thanks so much Malc,
I am on that site now. My problem is, I don't read the whole page. So, I am working on the tutrial right now. Also found all the links at the bottom of the page. Duh
This should teach me not to rush through things.Time to get back to the books,
I will touch base here as I learn to make notes. Who knows, maybe there is more than one person in the world as brainless as I am.:hehe:
Thanks again,
Merrill
Wow, real different type of experience, MicroDem and Hog.
A few problems in the tutorial though.
IN the file C:\MapDat there is no folder by the name "usgrdata", there is a folder named "VRML" in it's place witch is Virtual Reality Modeling Language I believe.
But the file has no sub-folders as mentioned in the tutorial.
Is a file missing, or do we now put all the DEM data into this one folder, or in the actual DEM folder?
Also, had some trouble with the NY file they used in the tutorial. They mentioned not unzipping the file and to place it in the Tiger. file.
Then it said to select New DEM and open that file. Well, That didn't work.
MicroDem spit it out saying that the file was not a DEM file.
So I Downloaded a reg DEM file.
I noticed in the Tutorial, they opened the Tiger file to get the file needed for the Dem and showed a .txt and I believe it was a .tar.gz file.
The only place I could find a file like that was in the actual files in the GIS Data Depot under DEM-24K files.
That tutorial realy needs to be updated. Nothing in the tutorial is the same as in the MicroDem. This don't make things too easy.
A few problems in the tutorial though.
IN the file C:\MapDat there is no folder by the name "usgrdata", there is a folder named "VRML" in it's place witch is Virtual Reality Modeling Language I believe.
But the file has no sub-folders as mentioned in the tutorial.
Is a file missing, or do we now put all the DEM data into this one folder, or in the actual DEM folder?
Also, had some trouble with the NY file they used in the tutorial. They mentioned not unzipping the file and to place it in the Tiger. file.
Then it said to select New DEM and open that file. Well, That didn't work.
MicroDem spit it out saying that the file was not a DEM file.
So I Downloaded a reg DEM file.
I noticed in the Tutorial, they opened the Tiger file to get the file needed for the Dem and showed a .txt and I believe it was a .tar.gz file.
The only place I could find a file like that was in the actual files in the GIS Data Depot under DEM-24K files.
That tutorial realy needs to be updated. Nothing in the tutorial is the same as in the MicroDem. This don't make things too easy.
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Never bothered with any of that I just stick all DEM related stuff in the DEM folder once you have located one, it remembers the path and goes straight to that folder for opening importing or saving.
Does say it's not important where it goes in the tutorial, I guess no one was using that folder which is why it's not there any longer?
Tiger data I'm afraid I skipped that as it's of now use in the UK as there isn't any, I used base maps created from Google earth for the important areas and just measured or used the lat long marker which you can get from the DLS for the rest. Helps having two PC's and monitors when doing that though!
I think you have to open a new dem before opening the Tiger data though,
as in load the DEM and then open tiger data where you get a list of all the areas which you select from the datbase, obviously only ones you have downloaded will actually be there.
Incidentally you can export the dem as a Google Earth overlay which I found useful.
Does say it's not important where it goes in the tutorial, I guess no one was using that folder which is why it's not there any longer?
Tiger data I'm afraid I skipped that as it's of now use in the UK as there isn't any, I used base maps created from Google earth for the important areas and just measured or used the lat long marker which you can get from the DLS for the rest. Helps having two PC's and monitors when doing that though!
I think you have to open a new dem before opening the Tiger data though,
as in load the DEM and then open tiger data where you get a list of all the areas which you select from the datbase, obviously only ones you have downloaded will actually be there.
Incidentally you can export the dem as a Google Earth overlay which I found useful.
I figured as much. The tutorial did seem very old. And most programs designed back then have been updated many time over since.
I am starting to figure out the just of how things work now. Correct me if I am wrong, but the MicroDem basicly creates the color map, sort of like a bump map and Hog interprets the colors as ellevations and creates the actual Dem Model using the rgb as an ellevation scale. Then this is added to the Trainz layout folder you created for the new route. And if I am not mistaken, Hog sort of works using the same basics as the displacement tool in the surveyor using the grey sclale.
I am going to start from the beggining again today and do the entire tutorial over again. But this time, I will be going from start to finish and load the map.
I did find that most of the DEMs in Data depot was listed under "State, County, then City", telling me that the DEMs are based on the cities. I hope they cover the entire county not just what is inside the city limits, since in the U.S, many of our counties have areas outside the city limits that are simply rural areas.
Well, time to hit the books.
Thanks for all your help Malc,
Merrill
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Yes basically it does the same as using a height map within surveyor.
The whole planet is covered by dems, there is an addon for Google earth where you can pick the dems for the area you are looking at, not sure if it still works with the latest GE update though as its stopped working here.
SRTM4.1 in theory you can link straight to the download for the DEM
There was also an oline map on one of the DEM related sites where you could select the right area to download, can't find it at the moment though.
Don't forget the fact that there is no need to do height conversions as it's in Metres now, otherwise you get a flat terrain
The whole planet is covered by dems, there is an addon for Google earth where you can pick the dems for the area you are looking at, not sure if it still works with the latest GE update though as its stopped working here.
SRTM4.1 in theory you can link straight to the download for the DEM
There was also an oline map on one of the DEM related sites where you could select the right area to download, can't find it at the moment though.
Don't forget the fact that there is no need to do height conversions as it's in Metres now, otherwise you get a flat terrain
I will check on the Dems in Google, but I have never the less, ran into another little problem.
As I was going back over the download for the MicroDem, I had noticed that there is an update by selecting "File then close and update".
I did this and after completing the update, when I open MicroDem I get these messages:
MicroDem requires spcs_tm_83_v2.dbf; Download now?
MicroDem requires spcs_lcc_83_v2.dbf; Download now?
MicroDem requires LAND_COVER_3.dbf; Download now?
MicroDem requires 7z.exe; Download Now?
MicroDem requires 7zdll; Download now?
After selecting confirm on each download, I shut down MicroDem and got this message:
An unexpected memory leak has occured. The unexpected small block
leaks are:
13-20 bytes: UnicodeString x 9
21-28 bytes: UnicodeString x 13
29-36 bytes: unicodeString x 13, Unicode x 8
69-76 bytes: TStringList x 8
This was not happening prior to the update.
And when I do select confirm on the downloads, it simply flashes to the next one so fast that I don't believe these files are actualy downloading.
Also keeping in mind, I have no anti-virus on this PC that can prevent the files from loading.
Is this an issue, or should I simply not install the update?
Thanks.
Merrill