All good things...

[magickmaker]

come to an end eventually...

I joined the forums back in the days of UTC and 2004, and have been a member here in good standing ever since. Founder of "Mad Monk Models" and route construction, I came and went as I saw fit. Every so often I would take a break from Trainz, coming back. However now as I approach 2012, I find myself at a junction.

After much consideration and thought on the subject, and looking at all my options both monetary and otherwise, I've come to a decision.

Starting Monday, Nov, 14, 2011, I'm giving up. You may call it retiring, but for me it's just giving up. I've fought with trainz for some time, the hobby being something of a love/hate relationship for me. On one hand I loved the trains, but on the other I hated that I never could finish anything. Beset by all manner of problems, from simply finding the right object, to complaints from users about what objects I did use, the fact was that it slowly wore at me to the point that I find now I no longer care. Trainz was fun (key word being was) but in the past few years that fun has been sucked out of it.

It was sucked dry by those who coined the term "gimme pig" and found the "face palm" photos to be the perfect answer when a new user asked about something. I remembered a time when players could ask a question and get an answer, when a user's post about a future locomotive they were working on was met with enthusiam. Not "Oh no not again..." or snide comments about it being beyond their reach. When routes didn't have to be perfect to be playable, and challenges could be held and issued without people making comments that the user was just trying to get someone to "make them a railroad" and should "do it themselves."

Where has that innocence gone, that kindness? I don't know, but now I find myself going down that route. I have become jaded, snide, and tired. I expect results, and look down on those who can't finish. I don't offer help, though I once would have, and now I find that whatever disease the forum members have, whatever apathy that has led us to this point, is now deep within me as well.

Due to this, I have made up my mind. As of today, I am leaving Trainz for good. Yesterday, I fully uninstalled and archived my trainz folder, then deleted anything that remained. The game is gone for me, and it's highly unlikely that I will return. I'm tired. Tired of the bickering, tired of the jerks, and most of all, tired of those more "established" members who are full of themselves. There was a time when we each worked together, when we encouraged our new members. Maybe, should that time ever return, I'll come back.

I don't see that happening.

Magickmaker.

 

[cascaderailroad]

I don't see the point of deleting Trainz ... If you still like Trainz ... Just because of other forum members being rude.

 

[mjolnir]

Well, MM, life is too short to waste time on something you don't enjoy, and if you no longer enjoy Trainz, then it certainly is time to invest your time in activities from which you derive more pleasure. I rather suspect, though, that the qualities in some individuals in this community to which you take exception you will also find manifested in individuals in whatever new community you find to join. If I look for them, I certainly find individuals with qualities like those labeled "gimme pigs" in this community in every other community of which I've been an observer, and I've seen in those same communities those who found the behavior in others to be irritating. Frankly, I've seen lots of users, new and experienced, asking questions, and when those questions were asked in a way which indicated some respect, answered respectfully. Perhaps more so here than in some other communities of which I've been a part. And I still find that quality of innocence, the passing of which you lament, present in this community more than in some others of which I am a part.

But good luck, and may you find the peace you're looking for in whatever community you decide to join.

ns

 

[sawyer811]

Frankly, i understand where magick is coming from. I can think of a dozen or more instances where members have asked simple questions like "I noticed this one engine in a screenshot and i wondered where it came from?" and have been blasted as being a "gimme pig" for it. I've even had it happen to me. If you've been around long enough, you generally know where all the good content is hiding, where all the websites are for third party stuff. So if you see something you've never seen before, then isn't the proper thing to ask where it's from? I was taught that you'll never know unless you ask, but sometimes i wonder if the rule here is "Just don't ask, period." Why should someone be ridiculed for asking for something to be made if they don't have the skills to do it themselves? I know there are forum members who are most likely just lazy, but i'll admit to having tried Blender and GMax and having no skills at them whatsoever. I can barely make a cube in either. So if i ask, "hey, i'm making this route and i needed this-or-that for it and i wondered if there was anybody out there who could help me?" why should i get labelled a gimme-pig or be told to make it myself? If i can't do it, isn't the proper thing to ask for help?

Sorry to kind of hijack this, but i see the same things too. It makes me sad that it has to come to this. we will miss you magickmaker, but good luck in whatever comes next.

 

[aardvark1]

come to an end eventually...

I joined the forums back in the days of UTC and 2004, and have been a member here in good standing ever since. Founder of "Mad Monk Models" and route construction, I came and went as I saw fit. Every so often I would take a break from Trainz, coming back. However now as I approach 2012, I find myself at a junction.

After much consideration and thought on the subject, and looking at all my options both monetary and otherwise, I've come to a decision.

Starting Monday, Nov, 14, 2011, I'm giving up. You may call it retiring, but for me it's just giving up. I've fought with trainz for some time, the hobby being something of a love/hate relationship for me. On one hand I loved the trains, but on the other I hated that I never could finish anything. Beset by all manner of problems, from simply finding the right object, to complaints from users about what objects I did use, the fact was that it slowly wore at me to the point that I find now I no longer care. Trainz was fun (key word being was) but in the past few years that fun has been sucked out of it.

It was sucked dry by those who coined the term "gimme pig" and found the "face palm" photos to be the perfect answer when a new user asked about something. I remembered a time when players could ask a question and get an answer, when a user's post about a future locomotive they were working on was met with enthusiam. Not "Oh no not again..." or snide comments about it being beyond their reach. When routes didn't have to be perfect to be playable, and challenges could be held and issued without people making comments that the user was just trying to get someone to "make them a railroad" and should "do it themselves."

Where has that innocence gone, that kindness? I don't know, but now I find myself going down that route. I have become jaded, snide, and tired. I expect results, and look down on those who can't finish. I don't offer help, though I once would have, and now I find that whatever disease the forum members have, whatever apathy that has led us to this point, is now deep within me as well.

Due to this, I have made up my mind. As of today, I am leaving Trainz for good. Yesterday, I fully uninstalled and archived my trainz folder, then deleted anything that remained. The game is gone for me, and it's highly unlikely that I will return. I'm tired. Tired of the bickering, tired of the jerks, and most of all, tired of those more "established" members who are full of themselves. There was a time when we each worked together, when we encouraged our new members. Maybe, should that time ever return, I'll come back.

I don't see that happening.

Magickmaker.

Magickmaker, Sir,

I fully understand your decision and the talking points you make about why you have come to this change in your feelings about Trainz.

My thoughts about this are that the turning point for the Trainz game happened when Auran suffered severely from the failure of the "Fury" game.

As Auran struggled to pick themselves up from the ashes, senior management at Auran distanced themselves and evolved into the N3V group.

We remember Lance Jago and others who were removed in the cost cutting plan and the focus changed to the N3V new management.

While N3V as a company has the right to expand and increase sales, the 'age of innocence' was lost and the focus was changed to profit.

It appears that the new N3V plan was successful and we see the user base increase dramatically in recent years.

As new users come into the game, we see a change in the way that some people ask/demand things.... and the need to have 'I want it now'.

There are still many here who offer help to new users.

You, in my opinion, are correct in saying that things will not return to the 'good old days', but that concept is not just limited to Trainz, but to everything we see worldwide.

I wish you well for your future.

Thank you for all your contributions to Trainz.

Regards,
Ron

 

[leeferr]

I, too, have had some of the same frustrations. In the drive for progress, I sincerely believe that N3V has lost the perspective of what made Trainz such a great simulation...the ease of a novice to make and upload content for the game. It gave the average player the ability to make assets and contribute to the community. The natural progression of newer versions of Trainz and its ever increasing demand for more computing power and more stringent standards has left many behind.

The forum has always had it's problems, but overall, I'm very pleased with it. IMHO, I began to see a division in the forums when N3V announced its support policy for legacy versions and content. Although, I can understand their reasoning, I haven't fully agreed with it and I've seen a division of members into two camps...those that want to abandon the old ways and those that want to keep support for the legacy content alive. I think that the game has lost some of its strongest base because of it, but life goes on and Trainz will probably continue to be the premier train simulator. I just fear that some of those creators and forum contributors that made it so great will be lost in the shuffle. The loss of Magickmaker is just a prime example.

Best of luck to you and I hope that we see you back soon.

Mike

 

[magickmaker]

I currently work for Bioware and am under a strict NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) as to exactly what I am working on. That in itself should say a great deal. Let me just say this, sign up and check your email over the next few days.


I think the time that it started going bad for me, was when I started showing some of the artwork I had collected over the years. Cartoon type artwork of trains, with anime styling. To see regular members threadjack that, posting huge "facepalm" and "double facepalm" pictures; while at the same time being very disrespectful to myself.

The second nail in the coffin so to speak, was the whole bit of trouble that MMM (Mad Monk Models, my company) ran into when we started advertising payware routes. I can't tell you how many private messages I got, but the gist of them being "you're a jerk, you can't do that. Just give it to us for free."

The last one, the last nail, came about three weeks ago when I asked about a particular locomotive a user was working on (asking in a private message) only to be blasted by this guy. Here's a user who rather than saying "Oh I'm not working on it" blasted me as a childish gimmie pig, and made some comments that had they happened on the forum I work on; that user would be permabanned. I don't work here, so it's not enforcable, but it's a symptom of a larger problem.

 

[bendorsey]

I can certainly understand why you and others are becoming increasingly discouraged. This is supposed to be fun - not confrontational. I've only had one situation like you describe. Happened when I was making all those curved trestles (550 or so). Some Trainzer complained that I was making every curved trestle known to man and was cluttering up the DLS. Apparently he only wanted items he approves of on the DLS and didn't understand the concept of the more thats available the more options you have and the better the game. He must have felt like a jerk when Auran itself thanked me in its newsletter.

What increasingly discourages me isn't gimmie pigs. 80 or more percent of what I make is by request but by polite request. To me that isn't a gimmie pig situation. I've had very few rude "drop what your doing and make this for me instantly" messages (they didn't get it either). What bothers me as a content creator is every successive version of Trainz requires me to re-learn how to make things so it can be placed in the game. Why? Newer versions need increased capability of course but why at the cost of incompatibility? It seems to me eventually none of the older content will work in newer and newer versions thus negating the biggest Trainz asset - the DLS.

Hope you have a change of heart and return some day,

Ben

 

[mjolnir]

So, here's my take on this. I did a search on Bioware, and found that it is a division of EA. I did a search using the parameters "EA" and "railroad simulator", and came up with lots of hits pointing to Railworks.

I've worked retail--brick and mortar retail, not onliune--and the experiences that MM relates about impolite customers is not new to me. I've experienced it, not only first hand, but in my face. There are always customers who think they are more important than anyone else, and that your product is overpriced.

The fact is, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, "God must love rude people, since so many of them were made". Part and parcel of doing business, I'm afraid.

ns

 

[Dermmy]

Hi MM

Sorry to see you go MM, but I hear where you are coming from.

I have lost track of the number of (occasionally viscous) personal attacks I get via email because some aspect of one of my routes are not what someone wanted or some piece of content was not available where I said it would be. They are endless. They have pushed me out of Trainz twice, but I keep coming back and I have never been pushed to the point where I deleted everything, though God knows I have considered doing so often enough.

There are threads a-plenty about the atmosphere in the forum. I recall when every new member was greeted with 'Welcome to the friendliest Forum on the net'. Who was it used to post that banner, I forget! How times have changed. I used to read the forum in depth twice a day, but now I peruse a couple of selected threads and leave it at that. I post a small fraction of the replies I once would have because advice that once would have been accepted with thanks, or discussed politely if there was an alternate solution now get greeted with sarcasm and disdain.

I always glance at the 'Active Users' list and it saddens me to see many names from the past - folks with a true wealth of knowledge - who obviously still glance at the forum regularly but rarely if ever post. I can only assume their reticence to post is for much the same reason.

I love Trainz enough to get past the angst, but it ain't the experience it once was.

Good luck mate...

Andy

 

[magickmaker]

So, here's my take on this. I did a search on Bioware, and found that it is a division of EA. I did a search using the parameters "EA" and "railroad simulator", and came up with lots of hits pointing to Railworks.

I'm working on SW:TOR. I just can't tell you what I do for them, that's all. I should be moving before long, heading out to Austin.

 

[Euphod]

Nostalgia is a drug that diverts our attention from what it happening to us right now.

I heard that quote on the last episode of "The Walking Dead".


The 'good old days' of the forum were the same as the current days. Same mix of personalities, same tolerance and intolerance, but member's attentions were entertained by shiny new toys everyday; new objects, new routes, new discoveries. Everyone was on a level field not knowing what would come next, and no one having a mastery of what existed currently. We were too busy with the program to cannibalize each other.

Now many have come to grips with the program, and little in new developments surface on a daily basis. The meat has been eaten, and some are wistfully contemplating the bones of their neighbors. I'm sure John Banks could speak to the evolution of a forum as it ages, and I'm sure new posters are always in an unenviable position when they first post on a well established forum. I believe this forum has weathered well the ravages of time.

New creations continue to be introduced, and new posters come and go. Some are treated well as befits them, and some are treated with derision as befits them. All personalities can be seen here, some good and some bad, but most both at different times. The community is what you decide it will be, since you are the community.

Another quote which I despise is from the movie Machete'. Jessica Alba's character has the honor of stating "We didn't cross the border... the border crossed us!" Nonsense! The quote implies the problem is not with the illegals that decided to break a law, the problem is with the law itself. Lunacy!

Well, the problem here is not with the forums, it is with those that participate, and those problems are few. You should consider staying and working to make the forums into your vision of sweetness and light, rather than curse it, turn your back, and embrace nostalgia like a spent old grump in a nursing home.*

*oh yeah, spoken like one of the "more "established" members who are full of themselves.

 

[NSWGR_46Class]

more "established" members who are full of themselve.

Magickmaker.

At last some one sees the true me:hehe: and peoples before you fill my in box with PM's I do not have self asteam issues I really am full of myself.

So you have an issue with the forums, so you leave - whats with uninstall the game rubbish do we care not one little bit. So you have some issues with seperating the game from the forums get over it. By deleting the game from you hard drive and then telling us all about, are you trying to punish us in some way, and this is just after having you tell us how uncaring as a community we are and then you think we will care.

You did remember to ask N3V to remove all you content from the DLS or did you forget that step.

And as we say in Australia do not let the door hit you on the butt on the way out.

 

[NevadaNorthernFan901]

magickmaker,

I am sorry to hear about you leaving, It saddens me more. Because the forums have lost another great person. But I know that I am not really known on the forums, and what I say doesn't really matter, but anyways here is my 2 cents worth.


I was lucky to join when the forums were a lively place way back in May of 2008, I used to login everyday to see what was the latest and greatest that was going on or coming out. When seeing that the I.E. James and J.M.Bowker was being modeled by a forum member it got me really exicted for Trainz seeing what it could do. Then I asked bendorsey to make me some stockyards that would transfer cattle and pigs for a route I was working on, he was the nicest person I met. He was kind and I really liked him and all the trainz stuff he made, And I downloaded all the items he had and they were awesome. I got to meet several awesome people on the forums who were very helpful to me and It sadden me that they left because of what the fourms turned into now.:'( :'(

Then I have witnessed the fall of the forums over the years. It has hit it home to me after the discussion that I have started "Steam in the 21st Century" it started good, but then towards the end it started getting nasty with a member that just started picking on another member absolutly critizing him. It drove me to the point that I had to get my topic closed, It was a great learning for me to see what people thought about steam locomotives. But then after that I just started to hide in the virtual shadows of the forums and it has really bothered me. I wanted to see what others are doing, I just didn't want to see others get beat up anymore on the forums.:'( :'(

Then it hit me that I just decided to "put up and shut up " and I left for awhile from the forums and just worked on some of my routes, that I never posted anything about because that I was afraid of what people would make fun of and critize about on it. After I came back that it really changed again and the forums didn't get any better and I would just post a thing or too every now and then, it sadden me that there was a lot of good routes in the works that ended up as vaporwear and was never seen again. I really wish that things would go back to the way it was here and all over the would, In my time I have witnessed lots of change from that attitudes of people to wars and the crisis of 2008 all in a span of 20 years. I wished I lived in the 1950s the most, It was a time of progress and people actually cared about each other and helped each other. I can only think what will happen in the future, but it is sad to say it will only get worse.

Just my 2 cents,

NevadaNorthernFan901

 

[RRSignal]

Really, if you think these forums are contentious, you should get out more. Or not. I regularly participate in about a dozen and this is definitely one of the tamest. And, relative to a lot of the forums in which I don't participate, this is utopia.

Some of the forum members who post here deserve criticism. Just today, someone posted to the Payware Forum an accusation that Auran 'stole his money.' Now, while English is not this person's first language, that's a pretty bold statement to make. But even that could have been given a pass. But this particular user has a history of making wild accusations. Now, I held my tongue, and a more patient user (along with a forum mod) politely set the record straight, but does that mean people should be able to do and make accusations in the manner this poster did?

And the "gimme pig" situation is no clear resolution. On the one hand, I've seen a number content creators get fed up BECAUSE of the gimme pigs. I realize the people who hurl accusations of "gimme pig" may have soured you, but those same gimme pigs have soured others. So what do we do now?

And then there's maturity. Far moreso than in any other field, hobby, or profession that I can think of, railfans tend to be either very young or very old. The distribution of age, experience, temperament, tolerance for immaturity, etc. tend to lie in the extremes. I can go to a shooting range and find a pretty even distribution of ages and experiences. I can go to a boat show, and I'll find mostly 35-70+, but, on the whole, not a gigantic gap in age and maturity levels. I can go to a computer show and and, while most of the people are below 40, again, you generally aren't going to get wide gaps in age apart from the occasional rude kid. By the way, don't take this as necessarily a criticism of the younger generation: This forum has demonstrated that there are quite mature and pleasant teens, and a few immature, baby-ish adults.

Now, as far as the so-called "decline" of the forum goes, having only been a member of the community for two years, I'm too new to say what it was like in "the old days." However, what I can tell you is that the internet in general is unlikely to return to a "kinder, gentler" age. Ten years ago, computers were a luxury. Today, not only do people consider them a necessity, but everyone has a smartphone and every idiot is wired up. Wanna see some scary - SCARY - news, here's a little news for ya:

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/netsol/ns1120/index.html

http://www.cisco.com/assets/sol/ent/business_trend/borderless/ccwtr/tech_world_report2.html

Other implications aside, this means that online participation is no longer the realm of those of us exceptions-to-the-rule who, in the good old days, who knew enough about computers to know that it was a luxury at the time, what to buy, be able to afford to pay for the luxury that mommy and daddy laughed at, that kids in school laughed at as being "nerdy", and be able to put up with those agonizing dial-up speeds. Now, every jackhole is *expected* to be online.

Listen, I'm sorry you feel the way you do. It sucks. The "Age of [Internet] Innocence" is gone. But please, first, read what I've posted above a few times, as well as what others have, and realize that the hobby probably hasn't changed, nor is the situation as bad as you may feel right now. Actually, if you think about it, the Auran forums are pretty amazing. You've got people all over the world, from every continent here. Different customs, cultures, even religions, and we all get along pretty darn well, enjoying a common interest: trains. Oh, and don't forget the widely disparate age groups here. Think about it: It's pretty darn amazing we all get along as well as we do!

 

[bl4882]

This strikes me as incredibly sad.

Magickmaker, there is absolutely nothing wrong in living your life for your own sake. Do what you like in contempt of what others may demand or prescribe. Let the rest of us of less talent hope it benefits us, but never let whatever we may voice affect you in any serious way unless you volunteer to accept it.

Here's hoping you find a personal solution to your conundrum.

Bernie