A different perspective…..

[rlclegg]

Updating the outdated?

I'm headed to China this month to explore new opportunities. One possibility is to set up a shop (at an extremely low cost) that will go through all the old assets and update them for 2010.

I'm guessing there are all kinds of "rights" issues with independent people who have created content. But hey, a really small fee, you send your route, assets, whatever, and we'll crank it out.

Plus, a whole new list of assets could be created en-mass as new content.

Thoughts?

ps - who is the guy who created the Chinese C30? I'll look him up.

 

[johnwhelan]

I'm headed to China this month to explore new opportunities. One possibility is to set up a shop (at an extremely low cost) that will go through all the old assets and update them for 2010.

I'm guessing there are all kinds of "rights" issues with independent people who have created content. But hey, a really small fee, you send your route, assets, whatever, and we'll crank it out.

Plus, a whole new list of assets could be created en-mass as new content.

Thoughts?

ps - who is the guy who created the Chinese C30? I'll look him up.

I have an idea for most of the old assets the corrections are known. There is a group who have worked many of them out. Their issue is where and how do you make the clean versions available? One issue is some content creators are no longer active in Trainz so getting permission can be difficult.

Cheerio John

 

[rlclegg]

Remake

Same thing can be done with the group in China. Any assets that do not have releases can just be remade very quickly.

Heck, it might be less of a headache to just remake everything.

It's fascinating to think that there is an opening for a content company here.

 

[rlclegg]

Legal

I also wonder if just "fixing" an asset wouldn't already fall under the legal agreement to have posted things on the DLS.

 

[NikkiA]

I also wonder if just "fixing" an asset wouldn't already fall under the legal agreement to have posted things on the DLS.

Sadly, I don't think it does, the TARM guys would know for sure though, as I bet they looked at the possibilty of getting Auran to just replace broken assets with tidied fully-compatible versions.

It's a shame so many content creators are opposed to the whole thing as most fixes are really really easy - I decided a few weeks ago to turn compatibility mode off, and only use content that was error-free or could be made error-free, most stuff takes under 5 minutes to fix so that errrors are gone, 10 minutes if you want warnings gone too (ok, except for repaints, it's impossible to get rid of the alias 'warning' - they should really be a 3rd class 'informational' perhaps, in keeping with the standard OS distinctions).

There are very few assets that require a lot of work to fix, and most of them are *really* weird/bad looking in-game anyway (at least, going by compatible mode).

 

[rlclegg]

Spirit

Well, the spirit of the law would be that if someone posted something on my platform that didn't meet the spec or standard, and the company fixed it without changing the artistic element, the author should be grateful and thankful.

On the letter of the law, I don't know. And the letter of the law usually never decides the issue.

In the reality of the world, a law suit wouldn't go very far from individual creators. it would cost them time and money when they could have just fixed or pulled the asset. The cost of a law suit would way outweigh the value of the asset. And in certain scenarios I could see the content creator getting into trouble for having uploaded an asset that didn't comply creating problems for the users and "damaging" the service of the platform.

Practically, my dad once sad "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission". Fix the assets, give the original guy credit/mention, upload it and move on. When he complains later, do something then to rebuild it and remove it.

... does the Chinese production house look more appealing now?

 

[johnwhelan]

Practically, my dad once sad "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission". Fix the assets, give the original guy credit/mention, upload it and move on. When he complains later, do something then to rebuild it and remove it.

... does the Chinese production house look more appealing now?

Depends what the penalty is. Remember some content takes a few hundred hours to research, create and needs specialist knowledge. We've already seen content that has been modified by Auran and then needs fixing. The content creator's view was they touched it they can fix it.

You need the content creators to be on side that means respecting copyright etc. If you don't they may just all go off and do something else and let's face it without the "free" content Trainz isn't quite so appealing.

Who would pay for the Chinese content creators by the way? Who would decide what was acceptable level of quality? We already had some people expressing disappointment over the quality side of some payware.

Cheerio John

 

[aardvark1]

Well, the spirit of the law would be that if someone posted something on my platform that didn't meet the spec or standard, and the company fixed it without changing the artistic element, the author should be grateful and thankful.

On the letter of the law, I don't know. And the letter of the law usually never decides the issue.

In the reality of the world, a law suit wouldn't go very far from individual creators. it would cost them time and money when they could have just fixed or pulled the asset. The cost of a law suit would way outweigh the value of the asset. And in certain scenarios I could see the content creator getting into trouble for having uploaded an asset that didn't comply creating problems for the users and "damaging" the service of the platform.

Practically, my dad once sad "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission". Fix the assets, give the original guy credit/mention, upload it and move on. When he complains later, do something then to rebuild it and remove it.

... does the Chinese production house look more appealing now?

What happens if the government in China shuts down the internet as they did for Ocemy? See thread below:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showpost.php?p=532350&postcount=1

In the highlighted section of your post, are you saying its OK to break the law, and if you get caught, offer an apology? I'm not sure that many content creators would agree with that concept.

Your concept seems to have some "smoke and mirrors" attached that need clarification.

Regards,

 

[paul502]

You're taking some 10's of thousands of locomotives and rolling stock off the DLS, correct?

I don't think this question has been fully answered, (apologies if it has) does anyone have a definitive answer to this ? If true what is the criteria for their removal, as many new customers will lose out on content that may persuade them to favor Trainz over other rail sims (why pay for an older sim when others, arguably have better graphics, & continual support)

 

[NikkiA]

I don't think this question has been fully answered, (apologies if it has) does anyone have a definitive answer to this ? If true what is the criteria for their removal, as many new customers will lose out on content that may persuade them to favor Trainz over other rail sims (why pay for an older sim when others, arguably have better graphics, & continual support)

Only Auran can say, and they haven't committed to removing anything, yet, only said that it may come at some point in the future.

My personal opinion? They'll remove the stuff that doesn't even work in compatibility mode first (yes, there is some that is so broken it doesn't even work in compatibility mode - a lot of it likely doesn't work in ANY version of trainz), then at some later point, lets say 2014 when the next set of end-of-lifes occur, remove objects that only work in compatibility mode.

By that time, we may well see a desire to get rid of compatibility mode entirely, or adapt what is now 'native mode' to be the new compatibility mode, and move forward with changes that need to happen then.

 

[leeferr]

....they haven't committed to removing anything, yet,.....

They haven't committed not to removing anything either.

Mike

 

[rlclegg]

Pay for Content

Who would pay for the Chinese content creators by the way? Who would decide what was acceptable level of quality? We already had some people expressing disappointment over the quality side of some payware.

Cheerio John

Since Auran isn't creating content, it would be content packs created for sale. Raise the money through pre-sale or if someone has enough cash to get a product out, they front it. I don't know if you've seen my concept video, but I'm looking to make a number of scenarios (pack) for the PO&N and Harbor Master Routes. I'd gladly look at other routes for use as well. PO&N and HM just happen to be included in 2010 already and they are very good for what I'd like to do.

Here's the link for my concept:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwlBVCd4tmk

 

[gfisher]

Suppose they "fix" it and then apply a 2.9 trainz-build to the fixed asset. That would effectively remove it for all routes built to an earlier standard. I'm not saying they are going to do this, just expressing some paranoia I heard elsewhere.

 

[NikkiA]

Since Auran isn't creating content, it would be content packs created for sale. Raise the money through pre-sale or if someone has enough cash to get a product out, they front it. I don't know if you've seen my concept video, but I'm looking to make a number of scenarios (pack) for the PO&N and Harbor Master Routes. I'd gladly look at other routes for use as well. PO&N and HM just happen to be included in 2010 already and they are very good for what I'd like to do.

Here's the link for my concept:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwlBVCd4tmk

What you're basically proposing is JustTrains, but with sweatshop employees instead. I'm not sure it would be an improvement over existing payware

 

[NikkiA]

Suppose they "fix" it and then apply a 2.9 trainz-build to the fixed asset. That would effectively remove it for all routes built to an earlier standard. I'm not saying they are going to do this, just expressing some paranoia I heard elsewhere.

Only if the kuid changed, if auran were to fix the assets, they could easily keep the kuids the same and then all routes that used the assets would still work fine (on build-number compatible copies of trainz)

 

[rlclegg]

Smoke

What happens if the government in China shuts down the internet as they did for Ocemy? See thread below:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showpost.php?p=532350&postcount=1

In the highlighted section of your post, are you saying its OK to break the law, and if you get caught, offer an apology? I'm not sure that many content creators would agree with that concept.

Your concept seems to have some "smoke and mirrors" attached that need clarification.

Regards,

I listed three alternative based on my experience in life. At various levels of business, the legal system performs differently. Just sharing my experience. I once had a $500 bike stolen in NYC. Cops laughed when I reported it. In a small town, maybe something different happens. Much more pressing things on NYC cops' plates. Ive seen $million patents infringed because companies could afford to stall the other company. I've seen deals, promises, and contracts all washed away because funding was impossible to support them.

I'm not advocating dirty pool, but as I stated in the Spirit section, anyone who complains that their original asset loaded onto the platform is fixed for use in newer versions of the platform is just looking for a reason to complain about something.

It's amazing how many people want to watch King Solomon split the baby. I'm just offering some solutions to save the baby when parties don't agree.

 

[rlclegg]

Quality

What you're basically proposing is JustTrains, but with sweatshop employees instead. I'm not sure it would be an improvement over existing payware

did you look at my video? I think that's pretty high quality. I worked with Jointed Rail assets. I hope you don't think their stuff is junk. And I used Phil Skene's routes, some of the best out there (in the fictional genre).

I'll leave the sweatshop wise crack/ discussion for another forum.

Just know that I've made overtures to some of the US content creators as well and find that people don't want to be paid (for whatever reasons) to do other's work. It's their hobby and love and don't want to make it a "job".

But hey, it's simple. When packs are released, you just don't have to buy them.

 

[Mike10]

I'm not advocating dirty pool, but as I stated in the Spirit section, anyone who complains that their original asset loaded onto the platform is fixed for use in newer versions of the platform is just looking for a reason to complain about something.

If Auran did the changing I'd probably agree with you, however, if you did the changing then I'd agree with the original creator's complaint.

If it isn't made by you, and you do not have permission to make changes from the original creator, then you have no 'rights' to change it and then make it available to others. Auran may because of the wording of the DLS upload agreement.

Mike.

 

[johnwhelan]

Since Auran isn't creating content, it would be content packs created for sale. Raise the money through pre-sale or if someone has enough cash to get a product out, they front it. I don't know if you've seen my concept video, but I'm looking to make a number of scenarios (pack) for the PO&N and Harbor Master Routes. I'd gladly look at other routes for use as well. PO&N and HM just happen to be included in 2010 already and they are very good for what I'd like to do.

Here's the link for my concept:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwlBVCd4tmk

So basically your comments on this discussion should be in the Payware section.

I assume that you've seen the discussions about payware routes where basically for any content used you need to get the content creator's permission to use it. This is basically to stop you selling repackaged freeware content.

I wish you luck but I suspect you'll need to do some serious number crunching with costs to create quality content and how many copies you'll sell at what price. I strongly suspect that the copyright laws have been tested enough to be fairly strong here. The textures almost certainly are covered.

Cheerio John

 

[WindWalkr]

So, I will pertain this question to Auran/NV3. You're taking some 10's of thousands of locomotives and rolling stock off the DLS, correct?

Sorry, missed this one.

The only mention we've made of removing things from the DLS is here.

chris