2009 Beta - Backwards Compatibility Issues

[sterrett]

I am a little disappointed. I allowed the BETA TRS2009 CMP2 to chonk away last night firstly importing all the content from TC3 and then Committing it all. This morning, I had 17 errors which, one by one, I cleaned the config files and they committed too.

I've just gone into Surveyor, and most of the imported Locomotives and Rolling Stock are showing in Red and the models won't show.

On going back into CMP2 and searching for "Faulty" assets, I have thousands of the little blighters!

Then, when I looked at the Class 117 DMU's (which on "Beeching's Withered Arm" are ubiquitous) I get the following error message:

Warning: Aliased meshes cannot currently be verified by CCP.
Error: MeshData: DatabaseLoad - cannot load mesh: 'content b15hb21j109\Class_117_DMBS_GREEN_YELLOW_PANEL_body\Class_117_DMBS_GREEN_YELLOW_PANEL_body.pm'
Error: MeshData: DatabaseLoad - cannot load mesh: 'content b15hb21j109\Class_117_DMBS_GREEN_YELLOW_PANEL_shadow\Class_117_DMBS_GREEN_YELLOW_PANEL_shadow.pm'
Warning: Progressive meshes are no longer supported by CCP. Though these meshes may work in Trainz, it is recommended that you switch to a LOD mesh.

If this is the case with most of the Locos and Rolling Stock, then TRS2009 will have a similar fate to Flight Simulator X with the real enthusiasts drifting back to previous versions!

I am concerned that, with every new version of Trainz, we're told that it will be backwards compatible. When I got TRS2006, the loss of sound drove me crazy and I went back to TRS2004. Even with the service packs, TRS2006, in my opinion, was never as good as TRS2004 with all the Service Packs applied.

Now, I have TC3 and had to go throuh an awful lot of messing about editing config.txt files and tweaking some of the bmps jpgs and tgas of other peoples' assets. I am now pretty pleased with it and have just got round to dumping TRS2004 and TRS2006 altogether. The quality of detail is good, the sound issues have disappeared and the frame rates are good.

If TRS2009 can't work with the assets that TC3 can, then I am going to be bitterly disappointed and will have thrown my money down the drain - not that I begrudge helping Auran's cash-flow because I have had a lot of pleasure thanks to the "Brew Crew!" (........even before the original Trainz when a 3D "Auran Jet" model used to appear every other week!)

So, I'm obviously working with the BETA, but the real deal is only a few weeks away - can anyone tell me if the proper version of TRS2009 will be properly Backwards Compatible ...............or not?

Thanks!

 

[b9k9kiwi]

...

If this is the case with most of the Locos and Rolling Stock, then TRS2009 will have a similar fate to Flight Simulator X with the real enthusiasts drifting back to previous versions!

...

Experiences will vary no doubt, but I spent so much time and energy 'unbreaking' TRS2006, that I have never seriously considered buying Trainz Classics - and, even without having read your missive, held out little hope that TRS2009 would offer me anything other than a similar experience.

Auran, I suspect, gain the major part of thier revenue from first time buyers/new users, so backwards compatability is not a major issue for them.

 

[johnwhelan]

If you dig in the Trainzdev forum there are some techniques for dealing with .pm files.

There is also a compatibility mode in TRS2009 which helps a fair bit. Most new content say the last few years is now .im file format so it's really the very early items with smaller texture files and lower poly counts that are .pm format.

Cheerio John

 

[sterrett]

Thanks John - I won't bother now while we're still in BETA (as that's only valid for one month, I believe) but certainly when the "real deal" comes through, then I will go through the list methodically and see if I can take ownership of a TRS2009 that's good for me!

It is a shame that when we sort out the glitch in another person's content, you can't just upload a "TRS2009 Compatible Version" to the DLS to save everyone else the tedioum of TRS2009 "error" correction!

 

[barn700]

hi Ian

The PM issue I read can be fixed bu opening for edit, then jusr re-commit and it should pass through.

We are making the best effort to ensure that TS2009 is backwards compatible, as a lot of the built in content is older, so will have to be fixed.

 

[Tony_Hilliam]

If you read the known issues you will see that we know about the errors and explained the various reasons for them. Most of the content (13000 items) included in the beta are created by 3rd parties and by Auran in eariler versions. The errors are, in general, harmless, in that the items will work fine in 2009. We are in the process of fixing many of the errors and also suppressing errors where the content actually works fine (even though there may be an error).

Please read the forums at TrainzDev for more information.

Backwards compatability and error free content are two separate things. For example, an item may use a texture on one surface that is visiable and the creator has also used the texture on another surface (e.g interior) or has the texture in the wrong slot in their 3D modelling program (e.g. refraction slot not reflection). THis will repoart an error in 2009 but the object will appear the same as it did in 2006.

So in short, 99% of old content will work in 2008.

 

[Captain_Collins]

If you read the known issues you will see that we know about the errors and explained the various reasons for them. Most of the content (13000 items) included in the beta are created by 3rd parties and by Auran in eariler versions. The errors are, in general, harmless, in that the items will work fine in 2009. We are in the process of fixing many of the errors and also suppressing errors where the content actually works fine (even though there may be an error).

Please read the forums at TrainzDev for more information.

Backwards compatability and error free content are two separate things. For example, an item may use a texture on one surface that is visiable and the creator has also used the texture on another surface (e.g interior) or has the texture in the wrong slot in their 3D modelling program (e.g. refraction slot not reflection). THis will repoart an error in 2009 but the object will appear the same as it did in 2006.

So in short, 99% of old content will work in 2008.

I am now officially giving up testing TS2009 as I cannot import about 500 of my assets as they all show missing dependencies which weren't there in TRS2006 as CMPv2 will not recognise the new versions of the assets. If you can explain this Tony, then please do.

 

[sterrett]

Thanks

Hi!

I just got in from work - another glorious late shift at Heathrow's Terminal 5 - to see the replies.

Thank you for suggesting a remedy. I'm just opening all the faulty stuff again for editing and letting the computer clunk away during the night re-committing them.

Let's see what the morning brings!

Cheers

Ian

 

[Tony_Hilliam]

I am now officially giving up testing TS2009 as I cannot import about 500 of my assets as they all show missing dependencies which weren't there in TRS2006 as CMPv2 will not recognise the new versions of the assets. If you can explain this Tony, then please do.

Don't leave Captain - beta is all about finding bugs and this sounds like a bug. That's why we're not calling this Beta a "Free trial".

I know there were some "obsolete" tag issues fixed this week but this may or may not be different. Please report your problems at the BTC and include as much detail as possible about the process you are using to import etc so that we can reproduce the same steps.

Thanks

Tony

 

[Captain_Collins]

Don't leave Captain - beta is all about finding bugs and this sounds like a bug. That's why we're not calling this Beta a "Free trial".

I know there were some "obsolete" tag issues fixed this week but this may or may not be different. Please report your problems at the BTC and include as much detail as possible about the process you are using to import etc so that we can reproduce the same steps.

Thanks

Tony

I apologise for my above post, I was rather tired at the time as I had been up since 5AM to d/l the beta. And for someone who usually rises at 10 on a weekend, that is a lot of sleep lost!:hehe.

Unfortunately, this is one of those issues that has always been in CMP. You download/install an asset, and it comes up with some missing dependencies. Fine, nothing wrong with that. Drag the item to the IDLE window, wait for it to find the dependencies, and whumph: "Could not find KUID:xxxxx:xxxxx on the DLS." Search the DLS manually, find it, click on download (helper): "Could not find KUID:xxxxx:xxxxx on the DLS."

Download the newest version: content is still missing the asset. Mabe this is becasue I did not open it for edit/commit it again. I will try this as soon as I have reinstalled.

I will now head over to the BTC to record this in more detail.

Apologies again,

 

[sterrett]

Here we go, after letting CMP2 loose last night, the "Faulty" assets are still just as "Faulty" as they were before! There is obviously more to this Progressive Mesh error than meets the eye!

I'm going to head off to the Trainz Dev site to see what they say.

Any other suggestions and I'll happily give them a go?

 

[sterrett]

Another CMP2 Issue.......Crashing To Desktop

In my old TC3 CMP, if I had an asset with missing dependencies, I simply dragged the item into the Download Helper box and, bingo, as long as CMP wasn't misbehaving, it would download the missing asset. (Sometimes, I had to go to the DLS and locate it myself, but that's another story!)

With this CMP2 BETA, if I drag the asset into the Download Helper box, within a few seconds CMP2 bombs out, crashes to Desktop and runs out the door!

It restarts okay, and doesn't need to rebuild a database or anything so I guess it's nothing too drastic.

Any ideas whazzup?

 

[sterrett]

Aliased Content.

"Trainz 2009 can no longer support aliases".

Okay - so how is this fixed please?

 

[Remilliard]

"Trainz 2009 can no longer support aliases".

Okay - so how is this fixed please?

It is not; it is called "software development". It will hit you in your wallet mostly.

 

[Mouse84]

Will we be able to use our local folder from 2006?

 

[Amsberg]

Sorry to contradict

There is also a compatibility mode in TRS2009 which helps a fair bit. Most new content say the last few years is now .im file format so it's really the very early items with smaller texture files and lower poly counts that are .pm format.

Cheerio John

Sorry to contradict, John, but TRS2009 definitely does NOT read .pm files - even in compatibility mode. Try it yourself!
To make things worse, quite a lot of recent content still uses pm's. I just looked thru the German engines provided in the current beta version, and I found no less than 8 that would not load due to pm's. (all of them are 3rd party.) Most of them are realy beautiful, very detailed and elaborate models. It would be a SHAME to lose them! :'(
I can't see, what's so bad about the old pm format anyway, that Auran wants to get rid of it. But perhaps someone can explain this to me.
Being given the present situation however, an automatic pm-to-im-conversion is a must. If it can't be integrated into CMP, then at least as a standalone tool. Otherwise I will return to TRS2004 for good just like Captain_Collins and sterrett.

 

[Amsberg]

It is not; it is called "software development". It will hit you in your wallet mostly.

You made the point. Well said!

 

[johnwhelan]

Sorry to contradict, John, but TRS2009 definitely does NOT read .pm files - even in compatibility mode. Try it yourself!
To make things worse, quite a lot of recent content still uses pm's. I just looked thru the German engines provided in the current beta version, and I found no less than 8 that would not load due to pm's. (all of them are 3rd party.) Most of them are realy beautiful, very detailed and elaborate models. It would be a SHAME to lose them! :'(
I can't see, what's so bad about the old pm format anyway, that Auran wants to get rid of it. But perhaps someone can explain this to me.
Being given the present situation however, an automatic pm-to-im-conversion is a must. If it can't be integrated into CMP, then at least as a standalone tool. Otherwise I will return to TRS2004 for good just like Captain_Collins and sterrett.

I've spent some time digging but I'm unable to find something in .pm file format. I have one recent reskin but that won't work in TRS2009 for quite another reason.

Could you give me a list of say five .pm file examples and I'll have a dig. One of my beta testers raised the same issue but after we used the approach on Trainzdev he seemed to be happy. I've just forgotten what it was.

Thanks John

 

[nawlins]

In CMP open the item that shows a .pm error for edit and close it again, without doing anything.

cheers

 

[Tony_Hilliam]

Sorry to contradict, John, but TRS2009 definitely does NOT read .pm files - even in compatibility mode. Try it yourself!

Sorry to contradict, Amsberg, but TS2009 definitely does handle .pm files. The error you are seeing in Beta 1 is that aliases weren't working correctly (so Trainz could not load the aliased mesh).

Both .pm and alias are definitely working in our latest internal build.