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Thread: Track and roads sinking?

  1. #1
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    Default Track and roads sinking?

    Hi guys,

    With regards to painting I've knottiest that the road and track looks like they are sinking in the ground.

    Is there a pix for this problem?

    I have knottiest that this is only happening with some colours.

    Regards

    Harry

    PS I'm using 2022

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrychapman View Post
    With regards to painting I've knottiest that the road and track looks like they are sinking in the ground ...... this is only happening with some colours.
    I am guessing that you are referring to painting the terrain with the texture tools. I am also guessing that the "some colours" refers to specific textures.

    My guess is that you are using PBR textures, these are actually 3D textures that have a visible depth to them unlike the standard (and far less interesting) normal 2D textures Trainz has always used until fairly recently. The depth effect can cause some issues especially where the terrain height changes. The problem you describe is an effect of the PBR textures themselves and is not caused by Trainz - the same issues occur in all games/simulations that use PBR.

    There are some "rules" for using PBR textures - such as not mixing PBR and standard textures. Also avoid using the brush rotate option (the "[" and "]" keys) when painting with PBR.

    From personal experience I suspect that the "sinking" you are describing is caused by the mixing of PBR and non-PBR textures. My solution to that issue has been to stop using non-PBR textures and convert all textures in my layout to PBR. Other issues can be "hidden" by placing scenery items, e.g. bushes, over the problem.

    ADDENDUM:

    It took a bit of searching but I found a post I made in another thread earlier this year on this topic.

    Because PBR works by altering the height of the terrain (by a few cms or so I believe) this can cause issues where the texture intersects track and road splines. I have discovered that it can take a bit of practice, some careful texturing and/or careful terrain height adjustments under the track/road.

    Its a bit of extra effort but I find that the PBR textures look a lot better than the non-PBR textures.
    Compare the two images of the same scene in two different versions of Trainz.

    TRS2006 - using standard textures.


    TRS22 using PBR (plus TurfFX and Clutter Effect layers). The track also uses built-in PBR textures.
    Last edited by pware; September 28th, 2022 at 07:03 PM.
    Development: Trainz Plus - b119450
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    Hi and thank you for your in-depth reply. Yes, you are right on all counts with regards to my post.

    Just one more question, how do you determine between 2D and 3D paint?

    Regards

    Harry

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrychapman View Post
    Hi and thank you for your in-depth reply. Yes, you are right on all counts with regards to my post.

    Just one more question, how do you determine between 2D and 3D paint?

    Regards

    Harry
    Most of the 3d ground textures are prefixed PBR or include PBR in the name, or should do!
    Malc


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    For example. The PBR texture I used under and around the tracks in the 2nd screenshot is <kuid2:124060:21045:2> PBR Brown Gravel. It is the same PBR texture, by the same creator, that is used in the track itself so it makes a perfect match.
    Development: Trainz Plus - b119450
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    Hi guys, I've rolled over lots of textures in Paint and I didn't see any prefix just the name of the texture but thanks for your help and I know what to do if I have the sinking problem again.

    Regards

    Harry

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    There is general consensus that PBR textures are problematic with road and track splines. But there is no need to do away with PBR textures altogether - just don't use them adjacent with roads and track. But what if I have already used PBR textures all over the route. Not a problem with Surveyor 2.0.

    I notice that the OP has Trainz22 Plus. This means the OP has Surveyor 2.0. And with Surveyor 2.0, you can select a non-PBR grass texture, then select a road or track spline, double click to get all nearby splines of the same name, then choose "paint under selected" and you're done. Important - control the width of the painting of the non-PBR grass along the spline with tool options, radius. Through trial and error, I found that a radius of 15m works best for 2 lane roads.

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    Hi that sounds really interesting, but I don't understand it fully.

    I only have TRS22 but lots of guys are referring to Surveyor 2.0. From what you have said above 2.0 and if I'm correct, you can automatically texture roads and tracks?

    Also how do I get the Surveyor 2.0. as I can't see it in the shop?

    Regards

    Harry

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrychapman View Post
    Hi that sounds really interesting, but I don't understand it fully.

    I only have TRS22 but lots of guys are referring to Surveyor 2.0. From what you have said above 2.0 and if I'm correct, you can automatically texture roads and tracks?

    Also how do I get the Surveyor 2.0. as I can't see it in the shop?

    Regards

    Harry
    You have TRS22+ in your timeline. Was this a trial or are you still using that? The interface is the same and the only apparent difference is the Launcher which shows a different logo. This is in addition to the extra content and the Surveyor option for Surveyor 2.0. In either case, Surveyor 1.0 works the same. If you do have Plus installed, go to the Tools menu, the one with the spanner, and you can switch between Surveyor 1.0 and Surveyor 2.0.

    There is no way to change the texture of assets directly within Surveyor. Just as in previous Trainz versions, you need to open the asset up for editing and then modifying the files if you can. This doesn't work for built in or payware assets but it does work for content from the DLS or third-party sites. The issue then will be how the textures are mapped on the asset that'll determine if it's possible to do that or not due to the complex nature of bump maps, normal mapping, and alpha channels.

    What pware has been saying is this. The PBR textures don't mix well with older textures and assets due to how they work. These textures have a Z-height component to them to give them the depth unlike the older textures which are nothing more than images that are painted on to the terrain surface. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. The PBR textures with their Z-height component can make rocks, grass, and in particular farm fields have a nice texture to them.

    The issue we see with mixing the PBR textures with the older textures is the PBR textures cause the older textures to float on the surface. It's this floating on the surface, also the digging in as the PBR textures is placed on the route is the issue. This causes assets such as splines to float or usually end up buried. The 3d-component of the PBR textures also causes a clear, jelly-like film to appear on the surface of the PBR textures when they are placed on slopes.

    In addition to only using PBR textures, the more direct and to the point workaround is to reduce the texture resolution from high to normal. What this does is "freeze" the PBR textures in place and disables the depth to them. This allows these textures to work just like the 2d ones without the textures burying roads, track and other splines.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    the more direct and to the point workaround is to reduce the texture resolution from high to normal.
    I have the Texture detail set to High and I reduce the Shader quality to Normal. These setting are found in Trainz Settings (from the starting window) then select the Performance tab. As a result I have no problems with PBR textures under tracks and roads. I now only use PBR textures and have no 2D textures anywhere.
    Development: Trainz Plus - b119450
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrychapman View Post
    Also how do I get the Surveyor 2.0. as I can't see it in the shop?
    Surveyor 2.0 (or S20) is a Trainz Plus only feature. It is not present in the retail version of TRS22 (but I could be wrong there - not unusual!).
    Development: Trainz Plus - b119450
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    I have the Texture detail set to High and I reduce the Shader quality to Normal. These setting are found in Trainz Settings (from the starting window) then select the Performance tab. As a result I have no problems with PBR textures under tracks and roads. I now only use PBR textures and have no 2D textures anywhere.
    The PBR textures are fine for new routes but when dealing with legacy routes which I have, it's way too much work to redo them. A couple of my still working routes are well over 320 km long if not longer and I'm in no mood right now to have to redo the textures yet again. This is the crappy annoying part of Trainz. N3V updates stuff, usually without warning and we end up with dorked routes, assets, scripts and everything else. Now that I've got the deadly evil Jeanie back in the bottle, I'm leaving things well enough alone.

    The worst part is N3V took perfectly working 2D textures from a dozen years ago and broke them by turning these legacy textures into PBR textures. Who did the upgrade? Which genius in the office? A college student on work study? Staff? Let's hope it's not the staff that did it. Shame on them. In the meantime, I had to update my routes yet again to get rid of the textures and decided in the end to forego the high resolution and stick with the 2d stuff for now. I have little time as it is, and this is one more thing to deal with even for a lousy game that this can be at times. No wonder I and many others are on the brink of deleting it all. It's not worth it.
    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    The PBR textures are fine for new routes but when dealing with legacy routes which I have, it's way too much work to redo them. A couple of my still working routes are well over 320 km long if not longer and I'm in no mood right now to have to redo the textures yet again.
    My current project started out in TRS06, was "upgraded" to TS12 then, temporarily, to T:ANE before being born again in TRS19. 375km of track (not including sidings, etc) and uncounted baseboards. I have converted all the textures (none of which were PBR) to PBR. The Bulk Asset Update/Replace Tool, using the "Anywhere on the route" option, went into overdrive and it performed a brilliant job. There was some tweaking needed here and there, with some judicious adjustments of the radius and sensitivity tools, but the job was surprisingly quick and nowhere near as difficult as I expected it would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    The worst part is N3V took perfectly working 2D textures from a dozen years ago and broke them by turning these legacy textures into PBR textures.
    I sympathize.

    That was the problem I had with my project. Suddenly, overnight it seemed, some of my most used textures went "whacko". As you said they had been converted to PBR textures and I immediately noticed that PBR and non-PBR textures do not play well together. That plus the strange over-painting of road and track splines. So I had no choice, I had to redo all the textures, as described above.

    Some experimenting eventually revealed the optimum settings for the texture brush and the Trainz Settings Performance options.

    But, in the end, I am more than happy with the result. The move to PBR is now permanent for me. I will not be going back to the 2D textures. It was bit of a brutal way to discover the benefits of PBR and I suspect that if the unannounced and unexpected conversions had not happened then I would still be using 2D textures and leaving PBR in the "manyana" basket for another day.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    No wonder I and many others are on the brink of deleting it all. It's not worth it.
    No, never. I have been through as many (or almost as many) of these Trainz sanity sapping crises as you have but I always return and always will. There is no other game in town that comes close, in my opinion.
    Development: Trainz Plus - b119450
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    Hi, guys, it's not sounding good for me. I can't the difference between 2D and 3D in paint?????? As John has said above, the more I look at my route the more I fill like giving up as the only way I can see how to fix the problem is to use a big brush and paint everywhere where there is a problem.

    I have only got the TRS22 and not the Trainz Plus so I'm thinking of starting again with a new route and bringing blocks from my old route to the new route.

    Unless someone has a better idea?????

    Regards

    Harry

  15. #15
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    Create a new Custom Search Filter in Content Manager set as shown:-



    This will list all ground textures (Texture-Environmental) with PBR in their names. Click the Save button and give it a name so you can use it again alter

    I counted 4435 textures named PBR.
    Development: Trainz Plus - b119450
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