Why use High Poly - Sketch Up ... instead of learnig GMax & Blender

[amrail2000]

The community seems to have survived to this point.

Sadly, there seems to be no sense of proportion in this discussion. Sure efficient content is the ideal, but the learning curve is becoming so steep that I can't see why anyone should bother really. A whole lot of work followed by a whole lot of complaints.

New creators used to be welcomed and encouraged. Where is the support now?

After being involved with this simulator for some years now, I have seen things go from GUYS and GALS let's have some, what are you working on. And that is totally cool, to JUST WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT? I DON'T LIKE THERE FOR YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO DO IT. Simply put, a few have made them self GOD over everyone else and in doing have forgotten about the fun. Now I will be the first to admit that there is some things on sketch up that I wouldn't touch if you paid me to. But I have download some items and gave them a try. Yes there poly count is high. But for me, I know not to flood to any area with them. I use what looks good and do so sparingly. If one of my members asks for an item I upload it to my site only. This way I don't flood (as it has been stated) with this high poly crap. Before I upload anything I do modify it some and edit what I can.

Now please let me reference the below pic. I've noted every item the pic that has come from sketch up.

I can respect that not every one would want these items. But I have searched everywhere for these, offered to pay people to make them with no takers. Now from my understanding the people that made these models are not even part of trainz. So they are making them for fun. My self I'm using them for my enjoyment only. If some one asks for an item then I'll share it. The minute they open the config they see this message." XXX Item created by XY-USER. All I did was import it to trainz. Feel free to do with as you wish. So long as credit for the original goes the creator." Now let's jump back to the picture above.

I have 5 items from sketch-up. This area is flooded with 3d grass from the DLS. Not to mention all of the other detail in this one small area. Please understand that I'm not wanting to argue with any one. But I am interested in knowing the answer to a couple of questions.
When I bought the program, who here helped me pay for it?
When did this go from something that all us did for fun, to a full time with a few select employers?
When did everyone become so critical over what some one else did?
When did it become rule that one had to download everything on the DLS? There's things on the DLS that in my opinion are horrible. But I would never say that to person who made it.
When did it become ok for people that I don't even know to call me lazy when all I want to do is have fun with what I paid for?
When it did become a criminal offense for me to down load and use something that some one else may not like?
Lastly, and the biggest question. WHEN DID THIS STOP BEING FUN? Guys that's all I want to is have fun. I spend 7 days a week doing support, so when I get a minute all I want to is kick back and enjoy myself. Now if go by what I see here, then I am no longer allowed to that. I now for some reason have ask for permission to do that. Frankly to me that is not fun. While my specialty is creating routes, I am very careful of the content that goes on any route I publish. The route that these items are on may never be published. If it is published I'd pull these items off as I know not every one wants them. Now before you jump all over me saying that I don't have any routes on the DLS, you're very much correct. I host them myself as they are very large. I also ensure that there is no need to chase down any missing dependency. I hate that as much as the next guy. My point is this. I am going to have my way. I paid for the program. I worked hard to earn the money to buy the program. And if I want to flood with this crap as you guys call it, then it's my choice. But one I can promise you is this. I will never upload anything that I don't make myself to the DLS. Well going on the complaints I've seen, I doubt that I'll ever upload anything to the DLS. My final question for EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU. When can we get back to having fun?

 

[matruck]

The community seems to have survived to this point.

Sadly, there seems to be no sense of proportion in this discussion. Sure efficient content is the ideal, but the learning curve is becoming so steep that I can't see why anyone should bother really. A whole lot of work followed by a whole lot of complaints.

New creators used to be welcomed and encouraged. Where is the support now?

Couldn't of said it any better myself Amigacooke. Glad sumone out there is game enough to say what a lot of other's i'm sure are thinking.
Cheers Mick.

 

[mikeman]

All I would like to see is some clear identification on the dls of poly counts of items. I use CMP to do my downloading and would like to have a upfront readable polycount of items. I don't want to download a 50,000 polycount lamppost that I have no idea is that high and populate my layout with it. I get that people want to show their skills off to others while they learn. Just please post a polycount. Perhaps it could be put in the config as a requirement for posting to the dls also.

 

[martinvk]

The community seems to have survived to this point.
...
New creators used to be welcomed and encouraged. Where is the support now?

Oh I don't know, perhaps over in the Content Creation Support section. I see many people asking for help and receiving it from other more experienced members.

 

[amigacooke]

Oh I don't know, perhaps over in the Content Creation Support section. I see many people asking for help and receiving it from other more experienced members.

Let's hope that giving technical support in the section that exists for those who are already creating content is enough to encourage new people to begin.

 

[Milwaukeeroad261]

I used to be a rookie and making high poly stuff, till i got some help with blender and tips and tricks, and also met the gimme pigs. you have to understand what it's like to be a real content creator and not some rookie who says oh look i made something in trainz i must be a content creator. world doesn't turn on that axis kiddies.

 

[Electro]

I used to be a rookie and making high poly stuff, till i got some help with blender and tips and tricks, and also met the gimme pigs. you have to understand what it's like to be a real content creator and not some rookie who says oh look i made something in trainz i must be a content creator. world doesn't turn on that axis kiddies.

Hi Milwaukeeroad261

Just out of interest what do you call a real Content Creator an a rookie ? ?

I my self have around 171 items on the DLS + anther 200 or so that i have never released, and i have been modeling ( not just for the Trainz serie's ) for around 15 year's or so.

Ok most of the items are just Basic but i have spent some time on them, Would that still make me a Rookie ? ?

THIS is just a Question NOT an Attack on any one on these Forum's


Poul

 

[jcayena]

Seems that a rash of super High Poly assets are being created using Sketch Up.

These Super High Poly assets can adversely effect framerates in Trainz.

Personally I believe Sketch Up is for lazy people who don't want to learn how to create the real thing in a quality program, at low poly count ... and are taking the "Easy" way out !

Hi , i think you really don't know what you're talking about!

All my content is made with Sketchup , some are from the 3dwarehouse (i chose them carefully and i worked on them before exporting to Trainz). There is a difference between 3dwarehouse models which are not made to be used in a game , that's about 90% of them , and models that people made in Sketchup , to be used in Trainz. You can make low poly or high poly in Sketchup like in other modelling software
No , you're wrong , it's not easy to use Sketchup , it's depend on what you want to make and the purpose...

You can be upset , that some people , simply export stuff from google 3d warehouse without adapting it to be used in Trainz...i don't like it neither , and i don't download them..
There are some plugins for Sketchup , to reduce the amount of polys and to delete unseen face in a model.

If someone can explain me how to make the models i made in Sketchup , in 3ds max low polys , only because you made it's 3dsmax ! i'll be happy to read it , because i've seen lot of nice very detailled models made with 3dsmax and extremely high polys , but not exported to Trainz

The problem is not Sketchup , but exporting models to Trainz that are not made to work best in Trainz!

 

[Konni]

Hi,

The absolute number of polys is no longer important to judge content. With the newer versions of trainz you can have 100k poly assets. But a content creator who wants to upload to the DLS should stick to some rules:

1. Assets with more than about 200 polys must have lod.
2. Poly counts between the different lod-levels should differ at least by a factor of two.
3. The poly count of the highest poly mesh of the lod scheme should be in a reasonable proportion to the object depicted.
4. The level of detail and therefore the poly count should be in a reasonable proportion to the intended use. For instance: a scenery object standing at some distance from a track needs less polys than a buildable that may be seen from a short distance.
5. With meshes covering large areas, higher poly counts are more acceptable than with small ones. A skyscraper e.g. needs more polys than a trash can.

I believe, that based on these suggestions, a set of rules could be devised to define a framework of what is acceptable for uplod to the DLS. A content creator should consider, that even if he gets away with 100 k poly objects with no lod on a route of his own making running on his computer, this may not be that case with routes made by other users, who may not be aware of the poly count, and who use your asset in a context, which cannotbe forseen by the content creator.
If an incomplete asset works well with its creator, that's fine. What I find difficult to understand is why incomplete assets have to be uploaded on the DLS.

Cheers,

Konni

 

[Pendolino]

When I bought the program, who here helped me pay for it?

I presume nobody did, as nobody helped me... but I don't see how this is related to the fact that the DLS is being filled with high-poly content

When did this go from something that all us did for fun, to a full time with a few select employers?

We are still doing it for fun: but spending a lot of time to find and eradicate frame-killing content is not my idea of fun

When did everyone become so critical over what some one else did?

I think that it is perfectly legitimate to criticise a piece of content someone else made when it turns my Trainz into a PowerPoint slideshow. (and no, I no longer use the PC I used when I bought Trainz 1)

When did it become rule that one had to download everything on the DLS? There's things on the DLS that in my opinion are horrible. But I would never say that to person who made it.

I fully agree with you: I don' want to download everything. I would like, however, to have some additional information about content before I download it: this would help me to decide in advance if it is worth downloading. Now the user has to download it, to examine it with CM or Mesh Viewer to evaluate it. Besides that, I have a lifetime FCT, but I think that users with no FCT are not amused to discover they used their 100 MB quota to download some useless object

When did it become ok for people that I don't even know to call me lazy when all I want to do is have fun with what I paid for?

How should one call the people who floods the DLS with content which could have been made far more efficient - for Trainz use - with only a little extra effort after importing it in GMax?

When it did become a criminal offense for me to down load and use something that some one else may not like?

Nobody has ever requested to turn the DLS into a police state. I defined - ironically - making a 20,000 poly trashcan a "criminal offense" because I'm really tired of examining all the dependencies of a route to find out what is causing stuttering, or of opening anything I download to see if it is worth keeping. If you like having your streets lined with 20,000 poly lamppost, that's fine: nobody ever proposed to ban these objects from the DLS. Many of us, however, would like to know in advance what we are going to download: this does not mean imposing strict requirements about what can be uploaded on the DLS: nobody ever asked to limit the freedom of creators.

My final question for EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU. When can we get back to having fun?

I - personally - am still having lots of fun: I only want to have more. I don't like wasting my time dissecting the content I downloaded to see if it is properly made or not, I want to play Trainz.

 

[JCitron]

I disagree John. Simply adding a kuid to a thread that lists kuids of performance hobbling assets (for whatever reason) is not an attack on a specific creator. A creator wants feedback, and too often doesn't get any, except for compliments. While those are fine, they don't address issues the creator may not be aware of.

Case in point: my humble reskins of buildings, most of which are made by Dave Snow. It was recently, almost accidentally pointed out to me that a routebuilder thought the nightmode was too bright. After his comment, others agreed. Now, I sure would have liked to have known that oh, about two or three hundred reskins ago!

I wouldn't be offended to see a kuid of mine on a list of kuids that need work. I may be able to fix it, I may choose not too, but allow someone else to do so, but if it was a problem that would affect other assets I may have in the works, I would surely like to know. If the creator doesn't want to know, or doesn't want to change the way they do things, then that's okay, but the rest of us would at least know who to avoid on the DLS.

I say it's time to name names and kick butt!

Ed,

You've got me thinking about this for a few days. At first I was a bit hesitant about saying anything, but you're right. We should point out "faulty" assets just like we do those with broken scripts and missing dependencies. This could be another round of DLS repairs, perhaps a second-level clean-up, that's not critical to get assets working but instead to clean-up and make them efficient.

The problem I see is that many of the original authors are no long in this hobby. With textures, the model mesh has to be reworked so that the textures are single-sided when they are assigned in the UV-map coordinator. Ideally having the original author rebuild the assets would be ideal, but with simple box-like buildings which most are anyway, someone could recreate them using textures that have been applied to the mesh properly.

John

 

[Euphod]

Well John when you start listening to me, you know you're going downhill!

I like that you've pointed out that some assets are troublesome for a reason other than a high poly count, or that it was made in such and such program. The problem is how to begin a thread to point out any troublesome content that can bog down the game with it turning into a "Can't find this kuid" thread. Certainly listing a kuid would enable others to verify that something is wrong, and it would bring it to the attention of any creator who may want to fix it. If a fix will not be made, or the creator is no longer active, then at least others could see that it may not be the best choice for a route.

Obviously we don't want to hurt feelings and post derogatory comments, but a simple "This object seems to slow down my performance:" would do nicely.

 

[amrail2000]

Haven't we discussed this enough? Here's how it stands. Some like this content. Some don't Some want to use it while others won't touch. Both sides do have very logical points. Now it just seems like this is going around in circles and even the OP has lost interest in own thread.

 

[JCitron]

Well John when you start listening to me, you know you're going downhill!

I like that you've pointed out that some assets are troublesome for a reason other than a high poly count, or that it was made in such and such program. The problem is how to begin a thread to point out any troublesome content that can bog down the game with it turning into a "Can't find this kuid" thread. Certainly listing a kuid would enable others to verify that something is wrong, and it would bring it to the attention of any creator who may want to fix it. If a fix will not be made, or the creator is no longer active, then at least others could see that it may not be the best choice for a route.

Obviously we don't want to hurt feelings and post derogatory comments, but a simple "This object seems to slow down my performance:" would do nicely.

Ed,

I always listen to you. Your wisdom is something that I look up to and many times we think alike.

I agree again. lol that a thread like that would become a repository of missing things rather than improperly textured things.

John

 

[JCitron]

Haven't we discussed this enough? Here's how it stands. Some like this content. Some don't Some want to use it while others won't touch. Both sides do have very logical points. Now it just seems like this is going around in circles and even the OP has lost interest in own thread.

You haven't been around the forums long enough?

This is only the beginning... it happens all the time in the Trainz forums. I'd say we can be worse than politicians in congress or parliment! At least we don't have to vote on anything.

John

 

[amrail2000]

I've been around long enough. I'm done with this. You guys can fight about this till the cows come home. Have fun...

 

[JCitron]

I've been around long enough. I'm done with this. You guys can fight about this till the cows come home. Have fun...

Whimp!

That's why I poke in every few days. You can go crazy with some threads and when you poke in a few days later, you're not missing much anyway.

It's like plucking a string. The waves are going to ripple back and forth for some time then suddenly die out. What will be funny is months or even years from now, the thread will come back to life like "Chucky"

John

 

[BobCass]

Hi All: I have a question for you..Is it not true that the more faces you have the higher the poly count??If you extrude something doesn't that mean more poly count??Then it seems to me the way to solve the problem is not to 3D..Do everything in 2D??How boring that would be..To me it goes back to the guys who invented the software in the first place..We need better Technology..That is the way I see it..Tell me if I'm all wet..

 

[martinvk]

Get out your towel. For objects that are far enough away, 2D versions would work just as well. That's what are called billboards. Many trees were made this way. They also turned to always face the viewer so there was never any danger of seeing them edge on.

Even building and other objects could be done this way. But the real world is 3D so the simulation also has to be 3D if you want to do it so things look right. Real objects have depth and can be seen from all angles so that's how the simulator has to do it too.

Better technology means a graphics system that can do it so fast you don't notice. Easy if you stand still but hard if you move and harder if there are many objects. That's why the requirement to use the minimum number of polys and textures that still maintain the illusion is so important. So sure, it would be easier if it was all 2D but that would break the illusion for all close objects.

 

[WindWalkr]

I agree with you, but there should also be an easy option for a content creator to have his asset simply removed from the DLS, at least if one of his assets come up in such a thread.

As others have noted, this doesn't really work because any asset you upload could then be used by others. Removing it would cause problems for those others. The last thing we want to do is introduce new problems.

Perhaps a mechanism to "hide" your own content from the listings- so it can still be downloaded where required, but won't be trivially downloaded by new users.

chris