Why do so few routes make it to the DLS ?

[martinvk]

...
On the other hand, the DLS does not seem to me to be the Holy Grail of Trainz because it is owned by a private company and they have a tendency to change owners, go bankrupt or complicate the user's life. What will happen to my TRS2019 if the company disappears and the DRM cannot be verified?. What if they decide to charge for everything? So far we have "only" suffered from the very low download speed, so installing a DLS route becomes very complicated.
...

Those are a lot of what-ifs whereas I've stopped counting the number of third party websites that have come and gone, taking their exclusive objects down with them and leaving route builders trackless. As long as Trainz exists, the owners would have a vested interest in maintaining the DLS.
Meanwhile, some have been at it for more than 20 years but it's still only a GAME.

 

[tlorey]

I have several routes finished but have not uploaded them to the DLS for several reasons:
1. Route building takes a great deal of time and effort. I appreciate constructive criticism but most feedback is non-constructive.
2. By the time I finish a route, a new versions of Trainz have come out and the route is behind the times.
3. I've collected so many third party assets that it is next to impossible to remember where they came from. Thus, the routes end up having many missing assets for others.
4. I still don't know why, but I lost a route that I was almost ready to upload. I haven't come to terms with that yet.

 

[lewisner]

I have several routes finished but have not uploaded them to the DLS for several reasons:
1. Route building takes a great deal of time and effort. I appreciate constructive criticism but most feedback is non-constructive.
2. By the time I finish a route, a new versions of Trainz have come out and the route is behind the times.
3. I've collected so many third party assets that it is next to impossible to remember where they came from. Thus, the routes end up having many missing assets for others.
4. I still don't know why, but I lost a route that I was almost ready to upload. I haven't come to terms with that yet.

What typically happens is that i think I have everything sorted then I discover a new object or spline and think "ah" I have to change everything.

 

[wilts747]

When I upgraded to TRS22 I only loaded the basic program without the additional routes which meant that migrating my own route from TRS19 there were a few hundred missing assets all of which need to be replace with alternatives from the DLS. When Trainz is again upgraded I'm sure I'll be repeating the process to some degree but should I ever get the opportunity to upload the route hopefully all the assets will be readily available. Peter

 

[lewisner]

I have several routes finished but have not uploaded them to the DLS for several reasons:
1. Route building takes a great deal of time and effort. I appreciate constructive criticism but most feedback is non-constructive.
2. By the time I finish a route, a new versions of Trainz have come out and the route is behind the times.
3. I've collected so many third party assets that it is next to impossible to remember where they came from. Thus, the routes end up having many missing assets for others.
4. I still don't know why, but I lost a route that I was almost ready to upload. I haven't come to terms with that yet.

Plus what typically happens is that I have spline "x" on my route and have a Eureka moment and realise that I can replace X with Y and everything will look fantastically better.

 

[JimDep]

Exactly. To me at least, it's more like having a physical layout at home. You're not going to package it up and share it. Several years ago @Shortline2 (Linda) got me into making Gmax content. I often wish I would have kept with it and made an entire route of one-of-a-kind content, again, like a physical layout would be, then share screenshots on the forum like paging through Model Railroader. Unfortunately, it's not like riding bike. I'd have to start fresh and re-learn it all over again. Too old... too tired... and too lazy.

Yeah, I know that feeling well. I made so many things with Gmax for my route over the years, especially just under 20 years ago, and did a ton of reskins on things like track and vegetation. I uploaded a bunch of Gmax creations just when Trainz was no longer going to support the Trainz 2006. I put a bunch of time in uploading to the DLS and only one structure got in before the deadline. The rest were all rejected......I guess......all I know is that I never got an explanation, but it was probably the old build numbers. I was so annoyed that I just said heck with it, I'm not wasting my time doing that again.

If you do decide to get back into GMAX, I'll help you refresh your memory......once I remember how again too. ..........It's been awhile and my energy level is down too.

 

[fant_autentico]

I have not written in this thread to polemicize so I will not quote anyone; I have only expressed my opinion that is as respectable as that of others.
As an old firms administrator I have seen things "of all colors", if many times what is written is not respected, what is not written or we do not speak.
Why this? Let's see, I have to trust Auran, sorry, N3V now has changed owners; trust that they will not leave me "hanging by the brush" (Spanish saying). Ok-ok, I trust but I think N3V doesn't trust me because in a product I bought years ago (TRS2019) a DRM continues to be inserted which for me is an expression of distrust towards this writer. I really want N3V to trust me just like I trust them and provide me with a physical support of my TRS2019 or a DRM-free version, trust for trust.... Do you think it's fair?
I tend to be an "informed optimist" (or pessimist) on these matters.

About the DLS, downloading a good route (without paying through tickets or similar) is a huge task not suitable for sensitive hearts.

I am not against N3V, on the contrary, I thank them every day for the opportunity that Trainz gives me to enjoy my love of trains, a hobby since I was a little boy.

 

[G.M.]

A few reasons not to put a route on the DLS

-Once uploaded you cannot repair anything on the original
-You cannot remove it any more.
-You cannot add the extra files you think needed
like special instructions, a good map, a kuidlist
-Its handy to have map and sessions together in 1 zip and also a content pack
containing all hard to find items used in the route.
-Putting it on the DLS actually makes it semi payware (pay for FCT)
-You no longer have part of the rights, N3v can almost do whatever they want with your creation
example make it part of a new release or DLC.
-Speed on the DLS without FCT is unacceptable
-DLS is very poluted cause no real maintenance gets done.
-Minimum build 3.5 why? Maybe someone still likes to make routes for older versions
-it cant handle the new HD routes sizes (because of .cdp limitations)

just share what you want, the way you see fit
greetings GM

 

[dangavel]

A few reasons not to put a route on the DLS

-Once uploaded you cannot repair anything on the original
-You cannot remove it any more.
-You cannot add the extra files you think needed
like special instructions, a good map, a kuidlist
-Its handy to have map and sessions together in 1 zip and also a content pack
containing all hard to find items used in the route.
-Putting it on the DLS actually makes it semi payware (pay for FCT)
-You no longer have part of the rights, N3v can almost do whatever they want with your creation
example make it part of a new release or DLC.
-Speed on the DLS without FCT is unacceptable
-DLS is very poluted cause no real maintenance gets done.
-Minimum build 3.5 why? Maybe someone still likes to make routes for older versions
-it cant handle the new HD routes sizes (because of .cdp limitations)

just share what you want, the way you see fit
greetings GM

Regarding routes , most of your objections can be overcome by just simply uploading a newer version, I've done it myself a number of times, more pertinently, just how many routes have actually been chosen by NV3 to become payware without consulting the original creator ?
You can add information on the forum or simply add a link to instructions to wherever you want the info to reside.
Of course, put your routes wherever you wish, but its likely your audience will be less than if its on the DLS.

 

[rick1958]

Yeah, I know that feeling well. I made so many things with Gmax for my route over the years, especially just under 20 years ago, and did a ton of reskins on things like track and vegetation. I uploaded a bunch of Gmax creations just when Trainz was no longer going to support the Trainz 2006. I put a bunch of time in uploading to the DLS and only one structure got in before the deadline. The rest were all rejected......I guess......all I know is that I never got an explanation, but it was probably the old build numbers. I was so annoyed that I just said heck with it, I'm not wasting my time doing that again.

If you do decide to get back into GMAX, I'll help you refresh your memory......once I remember how again too. ..........It's been awhile and my energy level is down too.

Thanks for the offer, but for now I'll just continue to abuse other peoples stuff...LOL I have a binder containing most of my email exchanges with Linda. I may go through them one day. I remember back then there was a very basic tutorial to make a brick box and have it show up in Trainz...LOL. Sorry... I did't mean to hijack the thread...back to the show...

 

[martinvk]

Yeah, I know that feeling well. I made so many things with Gmax for my route over the years, especially just under 20 years ago, and did a ton of reskins on things like track and vegetation. I uploaded a bunch of Gmax creations just when Trainz was no longer going to support the Trainz 2006. I put a bunch of time in uploading to the DLS and only one structure got in before the deadline. The rest were all rejected......I guess......all I know is that I never got an explanation, but it was probably the old build numbers. I was so annoyed that I just said heck with it, I'm not wasting my time doing that again.

If you do decide to get back into GMAX, I'll help you refresh your memory......once I remember how again too. ..........It's been awhile and my energy level is down too.

Likewise, my days of creating with GMax are mostly in the past. Back then, every time I needed something a bit different in a new map, I would stop and make a detour via GMax before continuing in the map. Maps took a loooong time in those days. With a huge library of previously made objects, I now mainly clone one of my existing objects, make a few modification and voila, a new object. Can't remember the last time I made something new completely from scratch. But the thrill of seeing a newly made object in game is still there which is one of the things that keeps me here after all these years. That and the fun of it all.

 

[ZecMurphy]

A few reasons not to put a route on the DLS

-Once uploaded you cannot repair anything on the original
-You cannot remove it any more.
-You cannot add the extra files you think needed
like special instructions, a good map, a kuidlist
-Its handy to have map and sessions together in 1 zip and also a content pack
containing all hard to find items used in the route.
-Putting it on the DLS actually makes it semi payware (pay for FCT)
-You no longer have part of the rights, N3v can almost do whatever they want with your creation
example make it part of a new release or DLC.
-Speed on the DLS without FCT is unacceptable
-DLS is very poluted cause no real maintenance gets done.
-Minimum build 3.5 why? Maybe someone still likes to make routes for older versions
-it cant handle the new HD routes sizes (because of .cdp limitations)

just share what you want, the way you see fit
greetings GM

Just some corrections and additions on this...

1. You can absolutely repair/update routes. You just need to release a new revision. This should be no different on any other website; it is very much not appropriate to release an update without using a new revision (ie you should not force the user to 'overwrite' the installed version, and then have to submit the update manually).
2. We don't allow DLS removals unless it is a breach of the upload agreement, or the code of conduct, or copyright. This is to ensure that we don't have users deleting commonly used assets on a whim, and hence resulting in multitudes of missing dependencies. Unfortunately we did see this occur in the past, and have had it occur where a copyright takedown request has occurred after an asset was released and heavily used by creators.
3. These would be best provided via a website or forum thread. You can include URLs in the description of the asset, which can be viewed in both Content Manager and the Driver/Surveyor menu. They won't be hotlinks, so users would need to manually copy/paste or type them out, but it is an option. I would personally suggest using 'tiny url' or similar for a shorter link, however that is up to the creator.
4. I'm really not sure how much easier it is for a user to install from a zip file, rather than installing from the DLS, but that's up to the creator to decide lol.
5. I'm not sure how you can claim that placing a route on the DLS makes it payware, when we provide free access to the DLS. Granted it's with limited speed, but claiming your route is payware is very much wrong.
6. You retain your rights to the route. You grant N3V the right to redistribute the asset (both via free and paid access methods, ie the free and FCT DLS servers; or as part of a DLC pack or builtin in Trainz - note that we do generally contact creators of routes before including a route in a DLC or builtin in Trainz). Without this, we couldn't actually make the content available, as we wouldn't have permission to distribute it.
7. TBH this has been covered a lot. The reality is that there are a lot of people all wanting to download from the DLS at the same time; we can either limit the speed of the free server, or go back to having a limited number of free connections at any one time (and hence people seeing 'server full' type messages). It's not free for us to operate, and hence we can't provide unlimited free access.
8. We understand not everyone likes everything on the DLS. We're also not the content police, and we're not going to make it a quality/standard decision for DLS uploads (if we did, I expect we would have a much stricter requirement than you may like...).
9. At the time this was introduced, 3.5 was the oldest version that was actively supported (namely TS12). Moving forward, we maintained it at this level to allow some level of backwards compatibility for maintaining older content without needing to adapt to the TANE+ error checking and standards. However lower builds had much less stringent checking, especially regarding scripts, but also due to changes in standards for config file creation. You complain about 'pollution' of the DLS, and then complain about us making changes to avoid a lot of the problematic builds that did cause 'pollution' with non working assets...
10. This is something we are aware of; however right now it's on a very long list of things for us to look into. TBH I've not seen many HDT routes completed that are seeing issues with file size, most are still heavily in development. I have also seen several smaller HDT routes successfully uploaded to the DLS, so it's not stopping all at least.

I'll also put in a personal addition relating to choosing where to upload. The DLS upload agreement does not stop you from hosting both on the DLS and other websites. So there's no reason, if you are ok with uploading to the DLS, why you couldn't also pay for your own external hosting for your route...

Regards

 

[pware]

You cannot add the extra files you think needed like special instructions, a good map, a kuidlist

I use the Trainz Wiki for providing information such as instructions for driving a session, a route map, commodities available, etc. You can link a session, through a HTML asset, directly to the Wiki.

 

[Driver_Col]

All my Routes and corresponding Sessions eventually get uploaded to DLS however, the time commitment to create my Routes is huge .........400+++ hours. What this means "today" is that I recently uploaded to DLS my revised Tristyn GWR (TRS19) Route and Session (approx 300 hours work), so now I can work on another Route. Sadly that means close to a year before that one will get uploaded. It comes down to the math. Based on my track record, one Route/Session per year is likely but perhaps optimistic. Of course I could create smaller Routes with less detailing ..... but where's the personal pleasure in that! Regards. Colin.

 

[pware]

-Once uploaded you cannot repair anything on the original
-You cannot remove it any more.

I have uploaded updates to my original assets (including routes and sessions) on many occasions. The original assets still remain on the DLS for those who prefer to use them instead of the updates - their reasons for doing so may include the fact that the updates may require a later version of Trainz than they have installed.

I have been the "victim" of a dependency of one of my DLS routes suddenly being removed from the DLS with the result that everyone who subsequently downloaded my route was faced with a missing dependency - and I got plenty of complaint messages. The removal was because of a copyright violation by the creator of that asset. I had to find a replacement asset, update and upload the route again (see point above) and apologise to those who messaged me. Letting creators remove an asset from the DLS because they suddenly decided that they didn't "like it" would create chaos.

 

[JimDep]

I have uploaded updates to my original assets (including routes and sessions) on many occasions. The original assets still remain on the DLS for those who prefer to use them instead of the updates - their reasons for doing so may include the fact that the updates may require a later version of Trainz than they have installed.

I have been the "victim" of a dependency of one of my DLS routes suddenly being removed from the DLS with the result that everyone who subsequently downloaded my route was faced with a missing dependency - and I got plenty of complaint messages. The removal was because of a copyright violation by the creator of that asset. I had to find a replacement asset, update and upload the route again (see point above) and apologise to those who messaged me. Letting creators remove an asset from the DLS because they suddenly decided that they didn't "like it" would create chaos.

It's a shame that the content creator couldn't work with you on that and let the original asset stay until they updated it to their liking. There's no valid reason an asset maker couldn't do that.

 

[pware]

-You no longer have part of the rights, N3v can almost do whatever they want with your creation
example make it part of a new release or DLC.

You retain your rights to the route. You grant N3V the right to redistribute the asset (both via free and paid access methods, ie the free and FCT DLS servers; or as part of a DLC pack or builtin in Trainz - note that we do generally contact creators of routes before including a route in a DLC or builtin in Trainz).

I can vouch for Zec's response above. My one DLC contribution is a session for a DLC route created by another user, and my one built in creation is a route that came with Train Sim 3 on Android. In both cases N3V contacted me to ask for my permission (which I freely gave) before they were added to the DLC or Trainz Sim 3.

 

[pware]

It's a shame that the content creator couldn't work with you on that and let the original asset stay until they updated it to their liking. There's no valid reason an asset maker couldn't do that.

The creator of the asset that I included had simply copied and modified the original asset and then uploaded it to the DLS (without permission) under his name. His modifications matched exactly the period and style that I needed for the route. The original creator noticed, or was informed, of the violation and made, correctly, a complaint to N3V. N3V investigated and confirmed the violation so the copied asset was removed.

I never discovered who the original creator was or the name of the original asset. Neither were a consideration for me. I was able to quickly find a replacement from the same period but not in exactly the same style and made do with that. It is now water under the bridge (figuratively, not the actual asset ).

 

[rgcx]

I'm going to say it. What's good enough for me is not good enough for others.

Also, how would I know what people really want?

Some want an 800 mile route with a 200mph speed limit so you can traverse the line in 4 hours of continuous game play.

If I were to upload my boring desert route which only exists to haul rock and gravel in open hoppers, someone else may reupload my route with 15 Amtrak passenger depots, 3 intermodal container facilities, 15 logging loadouts and 3 sawmills...does anyone see where this is going?

I get it that people want playability, but it's a very different vision of the original creator of the route.

 

[martinvk]

And there in lies the dilemma of Trainz. We can all, if able, create a route or other objects and share it with the wider community BUT not everyone is able to sit back and watch someone else modify it as they want.

So we have encrypted scripts, restrictive copyrights, awkward texturing techniques that make reskinning difficult or just objects not shared after showing them. Now everyone has their own reasons and they should be respected as the owners and creators of their creations.

As for those that do generously share, a big thank you for helping those less able create things to also enjoy this hobby.