White Plains railfan VS Police

[cascaderailroad]

If accosted by the police in the US ... right when handcuffed, throw your self to the ground, and intentionally bloody yourself, and claim you they broke you spine, and don't get up ... and file a huge lawsuit.

US cops just love to shove your face into the pavement, shove a boot into your back, and hog tie you ... beat them at their own game ... go to the hospital with a fake multi million dollar lawsuit !

 

[Gandalf0444]

I don't know about the states, but in Australia it is illegal to record a conversion without the consent of the other parties, and in the comments for the video he states that the police know nothing about it.

That law varies from state to state here in the US. Some states legally allow it for use in court case without consent or notification prior to the recording, or in some state it dictates if in public it is 100% allowed since your in public and your privacy is non-existent. While other you cannot use it in court period the end with out prior consent to them being recorded or a notification that they will be recorded. Unlike in Australia where it sounds as if it is a national law not a state level law.

 

[gregorygrice]

It was bad enough months ago, but since the recent Iowa incident, Federal RR & Local Police, and RR Companies are beefing up security alot.

In my opinion the close up, low angle, head on photographs and videos of trains are lackluster, and alarms train operators, and warrants witness's to will call in a police report of a suspicious person crouching near the tracks ... you get a much better POV from a distance of 200' or greater, or from an elevated public property.

If standing on a bridge obstructs traffic or pedestrian thoroughfare, the police can ask you to leave also ... especially if someone calls in and reports a suspicious individual near the tracks, or acting suspiciously: on public property.

Most RR right of way extends 50' to 100' from the tracks, and access roads and highways are not public property for loitering, or vagrancy.

There is a law that prevents parking within 200' of a RR crossing, and also applys to standing railfans who gather to loiter (as a railfan with a camera, using it as a trespassing ticket as a "get out of jail free card") within in the 200' area limit.

I understand what you are saying, but most of the engineers, if not all, on the Harlem line (The MNRR line where I was stopped) know who I am from seeing me at the crossing, riding their train, or at the station. They even wave to me (as the engineer in the last train that passed before I was confronted) or give horn shows. When the MTA police arrived (they were the last to arrive) they told the other officers that they knew who I was from seeing me all over and from the MTA hearings. I have been stopped there before, but the officers will just ask what I'm doing. I'll show them the notice I have (It's a personal email from the MTA President of customer service himself saying that I can take photos at that specific crossing) And then they will just tell me to be safe. Occasionally I will have friendly conversations with them about trains. So this incedent was indeed unacceptable...

 

[gregorygrice]

So now the "hate the cops" brigade comes out, wake up, if you were being beaten to death you would welcome the sight of a cop.

You are judging the Police response on a 1 minute recording of a 15 minute encounter, why hasn't he uploaded the rest???

If you listen carefully to the officers in the background they were responding to a call from RAILROAD personal reporting someone ON railroad property, on his knees, next to the track fiddling with something, and when the officer in that recording says that the kid was close to the tracks he denies it, even though the officer saw him moving away from the tracks when he rolled up, he then states that he was closer but not next to the track, and you expect the officer to believe him.
Then when caught lying he says he is not saying anything else until his layer is present, who has the attitude problem, number one rule when innocent is 'do not lie'.

The only thing I can think of is that he was half burying his camera in the ballast to get a "run over" type sequence, if that was the case why didn't he just admit it and face the consequences.

I don't know about the states, but in Australia it is illegal to record a conversion without the consent of the other parties, and in the comments for the video he states that the police know nothing about it.

Yes the police are sometimes impatient with this kind of thing, but look at it from their perspective, if it is some mad bomber then they are in danger, if it is innocent, most likely, then they just want to get it over and done with and get back to real police work, not have to keep hammering at some person with attitude to get to the truth, I have been questioned by the police while taking photo's and never had a problem, in fact once the police went to the people that complained and told them to mind their own business

Cheers David, who respects the police and gets respect back.

I haven't uploaded the rest, because my address, Social Security #, and other info is yelled out several times. I will soon be releasing a copy of the summons, and the full recording, with my info cut out. Also it wasn't RR personel that called me in, it was someone that was passing by, they later told me. In my opinion, they should have let me go after they searched me, my record and the tracks and found nothing.

 

[NickyVeee]

My question why didn't they allow him to call his guardian.

It may have had something to do with being a minor. It's probably also for protection, since the parent/guardian may come down to the scene and become violent and belligerent, or even worse they may bring down a lawyer with them. I know that a couple of my friends in the force have had that happen to them, so they just avoid giving them the phone call until all the paperwork has been set and ready to be signed.

 

[jayinatlanta]

As a minor, they technically can't cuff him .... at least that's how it is here in Missouri.

Is that true? Wow, if so, this is just another reason I would hate to be a cop, because there are some very dangerous minors out there. My instinct would be to restrain someone who might be lying to me about not being close to the tracks with a piece of electronic equipment. Or, to put it the way the cop did in this exchange towards the end: [kid] "I don't understand why you had to handcuff me" [cop] "'cause I don't want to get hurt."

This link here is all I could really find about it on the Internet, so again, if it's true that minors can't be cuffed, I'd love to know.

 

[pommie]

snip
In my opinion, they should have let me go after they searched me, my record and the tracks and found nothing.

They held you for 15 minutes, then let you go, that would be about the right amount of time for that many officers to thoroughly search the area, the search also explains the amount of officers present, the line was closed and they would under pressure to get it open again, while I agree that officer could of been a lot calmer I don't think he was overly threatening, and for you to win a lawsuit he would have to threaten, deride or slander you a lot more than he did.

Sure he scared the poop out of you, that was his intent, he didn't want you to hurt him, or you make him hurt you, so he keeps you mentally off balance, you were not hurt, other than your pride and dignity.

What you are doing on youtube (and intend doing more) is trying to raise a mob against the police and that is not going to help you when defending yourself against the charges, and that should be your first and only concern.

You have a letter of permission from the railroad customer service so all you have to do is prove you were a safe distance from the tracks, so stay calm and wait until after the case to lodge a formal complaint, and maybe a lawsuit, against that officer, and once again a campaign on youtube to rally people onto your side will not help, it might even result in that officer taking legal action against you for harassment, and as you have already made multiple public statements against his character, and intend making more, he has a good chance of winning.
I hope and expect that the court will not rule against you, stay cool

Cheers David

 

[Red_Rattler]

First, I did not know the videor was a member of this forum, but my questions in my previous posts in this thread still stand, especially the first one I asked about showing a mapping site, rather than the actual incident (with name and address, etc sections muted.)

I haven't uploaded the rest, because my address, Social Security #, and other info is yelled out several times.

Surely that is easy enough to mute that part?

Also it wasn't RR personel that called me in, it was someone that was passing by, they later told me.

I don't quite follow. Are you saying that someone passing by gave you an order that you had to go to the police station?

I will soon be releasing a copy of the summons, and the full recording, with my info cut out.

It may be best if you DON'T.

 

[sawyer811]

Is that true? Wow, if so, this is just another reason I would hate to be a cop, because there are some very dangerous minors out there. My instinct would be to restrain someone who might be lying to me about not being close to the tracks with a piece of electronic equipment. Or, to put it the way the cop did in this exchange towards the end: [kid] "I don't understand why you had to handcuff me" [cop] "'cause I don't want to get hurt."

This link here is all I could really find about it on the Internet, so again, if it's true that minors can't be cuffed, I'd love to know.

Maybe i was wrong...but i know i've heard of it. Now, if a 16-year old is pointing a gun a you, yeah, cuff 'im and throw him on the ground. there's conditions on it. But as a non-violent case (I don't think this kid resisted arrest, which is usually the borderline for someone getting cuffed) there was technically no reason for him to be cuffed. Now, i can understand doing it when they first pulled up, because from the information they had, he was a possible terrorist, but once they found out he was just railfanning, there was no reason to keep him in them.

maybe i'm wrong, though. Maybe someone who's more enlightened than me can chime in.

 

[PerRock]

while we're on the subject of being cuffed one thing I noticed is that he states in the description that he was arrested & not read his rights. However (and I admit to not listening thru the whole thing) what I see is more likely is that they detained him (which usually involves cuffing them while they interview) which isn't an arrest and so rights do not have to be read.

peter

 

[K4driver]

I can understand the caution, but did they really have to scream at the kid? Under stress...you can be made to believe whatever you are being told, and accept it as truth...I don't know, maybe if they were a LITTLE more civil...

 

[GS41995]

I can understand the caution, but did they really have to scream at the kid? Under stress...you can be made to believe whatever you are being told, and accept it as truth...I don't know, maybe if they were a LITTLE more civil...

I agree.

 

[klambert]

Hi Again Everybody


from watching the video you quote red rattler quite frankly I believe it is the persons taking the photographs which need training, and training in common sense and civility.

We all know that the 7/7 bombers carried out surveillance of the London underground prior to their attack using video and photographs gained that way in their planning. Therefore if you are asked not to take photographs on the underground stations common sense should tell you to abide by the rules.

All traveling on the London underground today are under threat of further attacks and the regulations are set in place for the best protection of all especially the staff who work with this threat for a minimum of eight hours every working day.

You are asked to do not take photographs of the staff on the underground to protect their own anonymity for obvious reasons. However, I have witnessed tourists ask the staff if they can take a photograph and permission has always been granted. Indeed my own experience of regularly traveling on the Northern, Central, Circle and District lines are that the staff are most helpful and obliging especially when there are delays and problems.

The so-called "rail fans" in the video represent everything that brings the genuine hobbyist and rail enthusiast to be cast in a bad light by the rail authorities and therefore bringing increased restrictions on everyone.

These people have not one syllable of common sense, and should be banned from the entire rail network for life. I hope everyone on this forum would also condemn these brain-dead individuals who looked like they wished for nothing else but to cause the staff problems and capture it on video.

From a disgusted
Bill

NB:- on a lighter note I would gladly welcome you pfx to work alongside of me. I can just imagine us compiling accident investigation reports on an evening after a few pints of cider, a couple of glasses of wine and a Contreu and Brandy to make sure we got the wording right.

The staff should have been notified about a special railtour coming through, even then they may ignore that. Coming from certain sources things were a little more lax when london was suffering multiple IRA bombings.

 

[sawyer811]

while we're on the subject of being cuffed one thing I noticed is that he states in the description that he was arrested & not read his rights. However (and I admit to not listening thru the whole thing) what I see is more likely is that they detained him (which usually involves cuffing them while they interview) which isn't an arrest and so rights do not have to be read.

peter

you do have a point...truth be told that's probably all it was, detain him until they figure the situation out. still, as K4 said, they could have been a bit more civil.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.
Having just returned from a trip to Manchester today by rail it makes you realize just how important the railways are once again in the UK and throughout the world in the overall transport infrastructure. It also makes it easy to understand why security has become so paramount on the systems.

As I stated in an earlier posting on this thread many on this forum view the railways as a place of interest, nostalgia and an extension to their Trainz hobby. However, modern-day railways are a place of work, danger and susceptible to theft, vandalism and possible terrorist attack. Therefore it is no wonder that the security within the rail organizations and national police forces is taking a much tougher line with those accessing the railways properties without authorization.

Therefore “rail fans” I believe should adopt a voluntary code if they wish to avoid confrontation with the security authorities and the harsh treatment they may find themselves being involved in by those authorities. After all, I believe everyone must accept that anyone involved in theft, vandalism or terrorism is hardly likely to tell their true intent to police when approached without at least a little “encouragement”.

Therefore a code of practice for Rail fans wishing to visit and photograph railways I believe should look something like the following:-

1) Always visit sections of the rail network manned by the network staff such as stations or railyards etc.
2) Always make yourself known to the staff and ask permission to take photographs or access places which are not normally used by ordinary passengers.
3) If permission is refused, do not engage in arguments with the staff.
4) Never, access remote sections of track especially junctions and signal equipment sites and start taking photographs or engage in any other activity which may be viewed as suspicious by security personnel, railway staff or other members of the public.

I believe if all “rail fans” just adopted the foregoing code or something very similar very few problems would arise for those just interested in railways.

it is all very well the youngster who found himself in the confrontation with the police stating he was known to the drivers and others manning the Trains but they are not the security personnel who are responsible for the safety and security of the network. Obviously he was not known to them and that is what really matters. The drivers and train staff he is known to where "not around" when he needed someone to vouch for the innocence of his activities and any sensible person would not expect them to be for obvious reasons.

Bill

 

[GS41995]

First, I did not know the videor was a member of this forum, but my questions in my previous posts in this thread still stand, especially the first one I asked about showing a mapping site, rather than the actual incident (with name and address, etc sections muted.)

Surely that is easy enough to mute that part?

I don't quite follow. Are you saying that someone passing by gave you an order that you had to go to the police station?

It may be best if you DON'T.

For one of the questions you don't follow. Someone who doesn't work for the railroad called the police you mook. Use your brain.

 

[BLACKWATCH]

4) Never, access remote sections of track especially junctions and signal equipment sites and start taking photographs or engage in any other activity which may be viewed as suspicious by security personnel, railway staff or other members of the public.

Bill

If you follow this, there will never be another pic of a steam special beating up Shap or Beattock, in remote locations, you are more likely to get that 'unique' shot that nobody else has, it's what makes photography personal.

There are guidelines already in place issued by the railways themselves, we don't need anymore.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.

If you follow this, there will never be another pic of a steam special beating up Shap or Beattock, in remote locations, you are more likely to get that 'unique' shot that nobody else has, it's what makes photography personal.

There are guidelines already in place issued by the railways themselves, we don't need anymore.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html

I appreciate what you are stating their Blackwatch, but you can get very good photographs of steam specials etc without actually accessing the line to do so.

I have personally got some very good photographs from standing at the side of overhead footbridges or from the roadside where the train is running through an adjacent cutting. it just needs a little thinking about.

However, we all have to acknowledge that the railways in the UK and throughout Europe are getting much busier and therefore more hazardous to users and vulnerable to vandalism and possible terrorist attack. The first duty of any railway organization is to the safety and security of its passengers, staff and goods in transit.

With the above in mind, if you do decide to access the actual line or any other railway property without authorization and in a way that could be viewed as suspicious then you are quite likely to be stopped and questioned which may be in a very direct manner.

just don't be surprised or come bleating on this forum when it happens.

Bill

 

[cascaderailroad]

Therefore a code of practice for Rail fans wishing to visit and photograph railways I believe should look something like the following:-

1) Always visit sections of the rail network manned by the network staff such as stations or railyards etc.
2) Always make yourself known to the staff and ask permission to take photographs or access places which are not normally used by ordinary passengers.
3) If permission is refused, do not engage in arguments with the staff.
4) Never, access remote sections of track especially junctions and signal equipment sites and start taking photographs or engage in any other activity which may be viewed as suspicious by security personnel, railway staff or other members of the public.

Bill

In 1976 I went into the Conrail Police Headguarters in Juniata ... and asked them whether I could sign a legal waver, and if I could take photographs.

Their responce in "the wayback days" Sherman, was: If we get a call, or we see you near the tracks, and if you are trespassing, or even close to trespassing, even on public property, and access roads ... You WILL be arrested !

That was 1976 mind you ... Today is ever more strict with RR Cops !

 

[BLACKWATCH]

Bill, I think we are at cross purposes , I'm not advocating trespass on railway property, I thought when you said "Never, access remote sections of track", that you meant where the railway runs adjacent to land that is open to the public, such as moorland or farmland.
I thought your point was that being somewhere out of the way was suspicious. I apologise for the misinterpretation.