Westcoast Wilderness Railway - Tasmania

[gazzari]

Thread gets older. No release of this as far as I know.
I have Race Track Builder. I obviously use to build tracks for Racing Sims. It has the ability to retrieve google map data. I retrieved the Section of mountain from Dubbil Barril to Rinadeena. It is of quite good quality and I can export to FBX. Which from what I have heard is able to be imported to Trainz.
I will have some time in a few months to start some work on this. Anyone interested in helping?

 

[normhart]

Um, <kuid:849438:100037> Strahan (Regatta Point) to Queenstown Tasmania - A New Era SP2 by jamesh1955

Description;
"This route is very loosely based on the West Coast Wilderness Railway in Tasmania. I say very loosely as the route has been compiled from 12,000 miles away with little in the way of technical information. A word about compromises:
The signalling and speed limits are entirely as decided by me. Note the signalling is set up more to allow trains to follow each other across the route, as I believe happens on the prototype, rather than to cross opposing movements. The mid section of the route is equipped with an ABT rack rail but there is no suitable component on the DLS so this has been ommitted. The gradient on this section reaches up to 5.8% (and Trainz has made it steeper in a few places) so most normal 42' motive power will not work in realistic mode. The route will probably need to be driven in DCC (arcade) mode, or let the AI drive and admire the scenery instead!

A quick word about licencing - this route is uploaded as freeware under the DLS T&C. If anyone wants to upddate, change or turn it upside down be my guest - just please reference old Big Vern as the original author in the credits.

Above all, have fun!
Vern, April 2018."

Some screenies here https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?1131-Narrow-gauge-screenshots&p=1745693#post1745693 and here https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?1131-Narrow-gauge-screenshots&p=1747268#post1747268

 

[KotangaGirl]

Paul of Paulz Trainz has made some basic ABT locomotives and the track to go with them. They're old models now, but they will climb steep grades.

 

[KotangaGirl]

The gradient on this section reaches up to 5.8% (and Trainz has made it steeper in a few places) so most normal 42' motive power will not work in realistic mode. The route will probably need to be driven in DCC (arcade) mode, or let the AI drive and admire the scenery instead!

I used three of narrowgauge's Kitson-Meyers to get a 90 ton train to the top of that long and very steep gradient. Lots of fun even if it wasn't likely that the prototype railway would be wanting to do the same.
It really is a stunning route and I had no problems at all with running it in TS2019.

 

[gazzari]

If I go ahead with this, it would as close as possible to real. I rode on the train once in around 2007. Awesome railway. And to think they built that before 1900. Some pretty awful conditions for the workers.
The steepest grade is 1 in 12 from what I have heard. That is somewhere around 8.5% from my calculations.
I am guessing DCC mode would get a train up. Likely not in realistic mode. From some who know a lot about Trainz modding, would it be a weight issue, or just tractive grip?
I have done extensive modding in racing sims and grip is adjustable in both the car and the track surface. Would this be possible in trainz? Or is it just fixed and you can't touch either rail grip or wheel grip?
I ask a lot of questions eh!
I will give the ABT Loco's a go some time. They're only a few dollars from what I can see.
Big trainz fan, but have spent 99% of my time over last 10 years racing and modding rFactor1&2.

 

[KotangaGirl]

It all comes down to the engine spec. Narrowgauge's Kitson-Meyers have a very well written engine spec that makes them work in the same way as the prototype which is why I needed 3 of them to climb that 5.5% grade. Other content creators sometimes devise engine spec scripts that make an engine unstallable no matter the load or the gradient. I know which ones I prefer (the realistic ones) because I like to drive my engines properly and not just turn a knob and leave them to it.

 

[narrowgauge]

For the record, new versions of the WCWR locos and coaches are under construction.

I have a loco about 75% complete and the two coach types about 90%. I fully intend to finish them but if someone with 3DSMax wants to finish them off on a team basis I will send them the files.

I have made them from original drawings which were probably not available when the original models were made. There are significant dimensional differences.

About the 'getting up the hill' problem. The secret is to increase the adhesion to mimic the cog railway behavior. Without wheel-slip, the performance can be adjusted to match the real thing. Don't forget that the cog drive will be needed going down as well as up.

Narrowgauge

 

[RPearson]

It all comes down to the engine spec. Narrowgauge's Kitson-Meyers have a very well written engine spec that makes them work in the same way as the prototype which is why I needed 3 of them to climb that 5.5% grade. Other content creators sometimes devise engine spec scripts that make an engine unstallable no matter the load or the gradient. I know which ones I prefer (the realistic ones) because I like to drive my engines properly and not just turn a knob and leave them to it.

Glad someone enjoys realistic steam power. That's an old TRS06 espec I did for Peter.

It worked fairly well back then. Though if it works the same in newer versions I can't say. My main gripe with the "new" N3V steam physics is it produces too much power going in forward direction. In reverse you get more realistic output from same control settings.

Bob Pearson

 

[KotangaGirl]

I've run Peter's Kitson-Meyers in TS2009, TS2012 and TS2019 and the e.spec works just fine in all of them Bob. I've always liked these Kitson-Meyers simply because they are a real driver's engine. They will haul a heavy load over steep gradients, but only if you are driving them properly. Mess up and they will stall. Some Trainz folk mightn't like that, but I do.

Yes, I'm not very fond of the 'new' steam physics either.

 

[narrowgauge]

For your interest:-


As seen in TRS2019

Do I assume that there is no interest in working on the details? I have no problem with that, it is just that finishing will happen later.

Here's another offer:- If you accept them as they are, warts and all, I will send the current versions and send the final version when they are complete. They will run as they are.

Peter

 

[KotangaGirl]

Thank you very much Peter. I would be very pleased to have copies of the WIP versions.

Though I'm not quite sure about what you mean by, 'Do I assume that there is no interest in working on the details?'

 

[narrowgauge]

Anne

I was referring to my suggestion that someone could take my files and finish them off. What may be off-putting is the need for a converter, and there does not seem to be a workable converter to Blender. I lost interest a bit when the user I was making them for faded away and I started something for Dan, and then I had computer problems, and then I couldn't find the WCWR files, and then and more then. End result I said "forget it". Being 90 doesn't help

I've now found the original files in one of my backups so I will re-export them and send them to whoever wants to play. I don't think Dan will mind, he seems some way off finishing and my contribution was not part of his route anyway.

If Bob reads this perhaps he could please find the time to make an engine file, if not I may be able to massage the Kitson-Meyer's file. I would prefer his magic touch.

Peter

 

[KotangaGirl]

Ah now i understand Peter. I know not one thing about using 3D software so I definitely couldn't do it.

 

[RPearson]

Hi Peter, yes I can find some time for that and I can probably update the Kitson-Meyer while I'm at it.

I have a bunch of spreadsheets I've developed over the years that I just enter the numbers into and out pops an espec. Not quite that simple but still a lot easier then when I did them back in TRS06. I like to run tests on every new espec and plot out the results but that's what takes the time and for most locos it usually verifies the spreadsheet calcs are reasonable.

If you have any info on the WCWR loco's specs and characteristics just PM me.

I should still have all the stuff you provided for the Kitson-Meyer stored away on a HD - on several probably since I keep copying that stuff over onto every new computer I run Trainz on. IIRC that was for a mining RR in Chile. As a young man - 53 years ago anyhow - I remember loading copper ingots in Chanaral, Chile a bit south of Taltal. I was a cadet midshipman assigned to a Grace Line ship going down the west coast of South America.

Bob Pearson

 

[narrowgauge]

Bob.

Thanks, this is very good of you.

I know all the dimensions, but it may be necessary to guess at the weight or make several weight versions so that Ann can tell you how they behave. I did have a contact name but I fear that may have gone. I'll do my best. If you tell me what you need, I will list them for you. I'm not sure what spec I used for the current loco, when Anne gets the loco, she can also critique that spec to give you more information.

It is good to be working with you. Like old times.

Peter

 

[RPearson]

Peter, I didn't have any luck finding data on any of the WCWR steam locos. So any info you can provide will be helpful. The usual stuff: grate area, firebox dimensions, boiler volume/dimensions, cylinder stroke/diameter/number, super heat? -I doubt, tubes number/size/length, boiler pressure, drive wheel diameter, total weight in working order, weight on driver wheels, number of axles-front truck axles/drive/rear (or wheel arrgt like 0-6-0). Tender capacity for fuel and water and weight empty or full. If tank engine then capacity of fuel bunker and water tank. Type of fuel typically used.

That's a wish list so anything would be helpful. Any info about the cog drive will also be helpful. If nothing is available I'll assume the cog gear is fixed to a drive wheel axle and rotates at the same speed as the axle.

Bob Pearson

 

[RPearson]

Um, <kuid:849438:100037> Strahan (Regatta Point) to Queenstown Tasmania - A New Era SP2 by jamesh1955

Description;
"This route is very loosely based on the West Coast Wilderness Railway in Tasmania. I say very loosely as the route has been compiled from 12,000 miles away with little in the way of technical information. A word about compromises:
The signalling and speed limits are entirely as decided by me. Note the signalling is set up more to allow trains to follow each other across the route, as I believe happens on the prototype, rather than to cross opposing movements. The mid section of the route is equipped with an ABT rack rail but there is no suitable component on the DLS so this has been ommitted. The gradient on this section reaches up to 5.8% (and Trainz has made it steeper in a few places) so most normal 42' motive power will not work in realistic mode. The route will probably need to be driven in DCC (arcade) mode, or let the AI drive and admire the scenery instead!

A quick word about licencing - this route is uploaded as freeware under the DLS T&C. If anyone wants to upddate, change or turn it upside down be my guest - just please reference old Big Vern as the original author in the credits.

Above all, have fun!
Vern, April 2018."

Some screenies here https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?1131-Narrow-gauge-screenshots&p=1745693#post1745693 and here https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?1131-Narrow-gauge-screenshots&p=1747268#post1747268

Norm where do you find these gems in the wilderness?

I dl'd it yesterday and I find it's a dem'd route of the area - as it is today as a tourist railway maybe. It's all NG42 which is a drawback for me as I don't have any equipment to use on it. So I took some liberties and retracked it with a NG36 procedural track I'm putting together for my EBT route. 1st thing that struck me is that the EBT equipment doesn't look out of place at all on this route. Some of the scenes could have been lifted right out of central Pennsylvania where the EBT I'm working on used to run. In fact it looks a lot like I want my EBT to end up looking. I really liked this route scenery wise. Track is limited to single track with very short sidings at the passenger stations.

But I like the author's track work. All fixed height with nice grades - maybe not the uniform grades connected with vertical transition curves like I did for the EBT based on the track surveys but nice work. The curves are all connected by straightened "tangent" track like I use and most have no intermediate vertices and at least a smooth curve results. It looks like the track work was done in another program maybe and vector data imported into Transdem to mark the route. I did something similar with my own scripts for the EBT.

I'll post a few shots below with HUD data displayed to show how the EBT bigger mikados do handling 5.9% in cab mode. Nothing extra-ordinary here these locos are rated 30600 lbf and the espec is pretty close to that. As Ann says it's all in the espec. On the EBT's 2.65% one 2-8-2 will handle up to 24 empty hoppers returning upgrade to the mines. Here on 5.9% one will stall out with that consist but 2 handle it with something to spare. I added the coach on the rear for the AM miners run like the EBT did. The TE is realistic and they don't slip a lot even with the loco hooked up. On the grade the pusher is running with full throttle and cutoff. The front loco is running with full throttle and 50-60% cutoff. This is with the default wheel slip setup in the game (TANE SP3).

If you want to model steam locos using cab mode on the cog sections of the route I think the "on rack" condition can be modeled by removing wheel slipping thru scripting with triggers placed to mark ends of the rack (or IIRC there is a rule that can be set up to do it but not sure how it would be implemented). Then restore the original settings for the "off rack" condition.

That's how I do all my steam loco espec testing. With wheel slippage allowed there's no way I can see what force the loco's producing thru the full range of control settings. There's no way I'd test a loco allowing it to slip on the test track. When I'm done at least I know the TE it produces. Whether it slips in use then depends on the adhesive weight and how good the frictional coefficients are modeled. And you can play with these if needed.

Bob Pearson

 

[narrowgauge]

Bob

I do not have any of the details you need, is there any way you can approximate without them?

I can give you:-
Boiler size 40" OD x 130" long.
Main wheel size 36" x 2 axles.
Cog wheel size 10" x 2 axles.
Fuel:- Diesel oil.

Something to make you think. There are two separate drive engines, the visible outside cranked one and an internal cog engine, There is no mechanical connection between the two. The pair of cog wheels are not aligned with the friction drive wheels and are not even the same diameter, and only run on the cogged sections. It think it is probable/likely that when driving on the cogged sections, the outside drive is just coasting. Balancing the two drives could be tricky and probably un-necessary .

I believe that at the transition points, the cog rail is spring supported to allow the teeth to mesh before power is applied.

Peter

 

[pcas1986]

Westcoast Wilderness Railway loco - Large size image

I took this photo in 2007. Can't see much of the loco but the cog track is visible.

 

[RPearson]

Peter thanks for the info. I had a little better luck searching on Mt Lyell Railway. Several looked very promising but yielded little. Martyn Blanes site had an article on the new Lempor exhaust ejector system installed in no 5 & 3 but no data on the locos - click here if interested.

I did find out a lot more than I had anticipated. So no need to guestimate it all. But so far you're the only source of the wheel & cog data.

Following 3 sources were pretty useful:
Rail Tasmania site
http://www.railtasmania.com/loco/abt.htm

Mount Lyell Abt Railway Nomination for Engineers Australia Engineering Heritage Recognition Volume 1 - pdf
https://portal.engineersaustralia.org.au/system/files/engineering-heritage-australia/nomination-title/HRP.West%20coast%20Wilderness%20Railway.Tasmania.Nomination%20Volume%201.V7.August%202015.pdf

Facebook Tasmanian Railways site
https://www.facebook.com/1797222117184948/photos/a.1797223040518189/2067520326821791/?type=3&theater

4 separate braking systems on the loco: vacuum train brake, independent loco brake on drive wheels, counter pressure brake (Riggenbach system) on all 4 steam cylinders and manual brake that worked on the rack pinion brake drums. The latter was not included in the restoration effort and I don't think is on the current No 1,3&5 locos.

I have tank capacities, loco wt, tube data, boiler pressure and tonnage specifications per Abt loco in adhesion mode and on the 1 in 16 and 1 in 20 grade rack sections.

Note: the engineering report states they used adhesion and cog drive on the rack sections. The gradients generally were constant enough so balancing was not a problem and once set didn't need much in the way of further adjustment.

Valve gear is walschearts on both inside and outside cylinders.

Still lacking firebox/grate and cylinder data - other than 4 saturated steam, 2 outside for drive wheels and 2 inside driving the cogs, totally independent systems with separate controls.

I can probably reverse engineer the cylinders and/or scale a few photos for crank and cylinder head dia. With your boiler dimensions and the other pics I found I can probably scale something for fb/grate.

Every little bit helps - thanks all,

Bob Pearson