West Coast Railways Banned Again from UK Rail Network.

[johnwhelan]

>Steam power on such a large scale proved to be very expensive and highly polluting

No, come on now this is pure nonsense, on the air pollution side lead, in 1960 lead was added to petrol and that definitely was bad, lower IQs for children living near traffic junctions, diesel, the partical size is ideal for the deaths of many babies and children it isn't so good either for others with breathing problems. Steam locos with the right firemen and coal were fairly good in terms of pollution per load distance and it least you could see it. Lead and diesel particules were the invisible killers never mind the road accidents.

Cheerio John

 

[wholbr]

>Steam power on such a large scale proved to be very expensive and highly polluting

No, come on now this is pure nonsense, on the air pollution side lead, in 1960 lead was added to petrol and that definitely was bad, lower IQs for children living near traffic junctions, diesel, the partical size is ideal for the deaths of many babies and children it isn't so good either for others with breathing problems. Steam locos with the right firemen and coal were fairly good in terms of pollution per load distance and it least you could see it. Lead and diesel particules were the invisible killers never mind the road accidents.

Cheerio John

John, the pollution I was referring to in my posting at #80 of this thread was the soot and grime emitted by steam locomotives while standing at Britain's railway railway stations in the 1950s and 60s as I stated in the post. Air pollution such as that caused by lead in petrol was not even recognised as a health hazard in that decade

What passengers on britain's railways in that era did recognize as pollution was the soot and filth that was always around them at the stations which as stated belched forth from locomotives standing in them. As those of us who can remember those years have always testified to, was the fact that everything was layered in that pollution. The foregoing meant that you could not even sit down on the platform benches without getting your clothes mired in the grime. Therefore, you stood in the smoke and soot awaiting your always delayed train which in all probability was still trying to raise steam somewhere down in the service yard before starting its journey.

Incidentally in the 1950s there was a shortage of what was known as “welsh Steam Coal” for some reason. Therefore coal less suitable for steam locomotive use had to be brought in as replacement making those old kettles even less efficient but even more soot and grime emitting.

John, with every respect to your above posting, i feel you are making the common mistake of Citing present day knowledge and attitudes with that of previous generations which where very different in those periods of time.

Bill

 

[johnwhelan]

John, the pollution I was referring to in my posting at #80 of this thread was the soot and grime emitted by steam locomotives while standing at Britain's railway railway stations in the 1950s and 60s as I stated in the post. Air pollution such as that caused by lead in petrol was not even recognised as a health hazard in that decade

What passengers on britain's railways in that era did recognize as pollution was the soot and filth that was always around them at the stations which as stated belched forth from locomotives standing in them. As those of us who can remember those years have always testified to, was the fact that everything was layered in that pollution. The foregoing meant that you could not even sit down on the platform benches without getting your clothes mired in the grime. Therefore, you stood in the smoke and soot awaiting your always delayed train which in all probability was still trying to raise steam somewhere down in the service yard before starting its journey.

Incidentally in the 1950s there was a shortage of what was known as “welsh Steam Coal” for some reason. Therefore coal less suitable for steam locomotive use had to be brought in as replacement making those old kettles even less efficient but even more soot and grime emitting.

John, with every respect to your above posting, i feel you are making the common mistake of Citing present day knowledge and attitudes with that of previous generations which where very different in those periods of time.

Bill

It was documented in the scientific literature and known about at the time but you're right we don't teach enough about science in schools so the risks are understood. Obviously you weren't aware of the problem therefore it didn't exist.

Cheerio John

 

[amigacooke]

As those of us who can remember those years have always testified to, was the fact that everything was layered in that pollution.

Which no doubt was nothing to do with the millions of coal fires used for domestic heating and in industrial premises.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody

Which no doubt was nothing to do with the millions of coal fires used for domestic heating and in industrial premises.

amigacooke, you are quite right to raise the point of high coal usage causing heavy pollution in general throughout the United Kingdom especially in the late 1940s and 50s. I think it was in 1953 as a young 9 year old that the famous smog pollution hit many large cities in Britain. Officially the number that died in that week long smog nightmare was placed at around 2000 people. However recent government papers released show that many times that number where casualties with the government of the day going to extraordinary lengths to cover the real figures up.

Therefore, amigacooke I would one hundred percent agree that the high use of coal throughout the UK did certainly make Britain's towns and cities very drab and dirty places to live in during the above period. However, many of the major stations on Britain's railways were on a completely different level again in terms of dirt and grime than anything found outside them.

Bristol Temple Meads would be would be the station of which I have the worst memories of the above filth. However, similar conditions could be seen at many more. Bristol Temple Meads has 15 platforms with platforms 1 to 10 being covered with a huge domed roof enclosing the entire structure. Similar structures can be seen at many other UK stations especially here in the West Country.

The foregoing structures are wonderful feats of Engineering. However, in the steam era six or seven trains would be ether moving or waiting alongside those platforms at any one time blowing hot smoke, soot and steam up into the high roof structure which would then cool and descend onto the platforms covering those structures in the for-said soot and grime.

The above is the reason why many of my generation have no great love of steam locomotives or the era in which they ran, as our memories of those days are nothing else but dirt and filth accompanied by a Railway timetable which was a work of fiction.

Like many others I still visit preserved railways when taking the grandchildren for a day out, as one of the biggest in the UK ( the 25 mile West Somerset Railway) is only a few miles from where I live and the grandchildren love to ride behind "a steamer". The preserved locomotives and rolling stock look great when so well looked after by the army of volunteers who love to work on them.

However, have no illusions, the preserved superbly manicured stations and gleaming locomotives looked nothing like that in the 1940s, 50s and 60s steam motive power days of British Rail

Bill

 

[johnwhelan]

>The above is the reason why many of my generation have no great love of steam locomotives or the era in which they ran, as our memories of those days are nothing else but dirt and filth accompanied by a Railway timetable which was a work of fiction.

And I thought it was us oldies who spent lots of time recreating this period of time in Trainz because we like it so much. Amazing what you learn in the forums.

Cheerio John

 

[rjhowie]

As a wee boy I liked steam trains but as I grew up and matured I widened into an appreciation of diesels and especially suburban electrics. Stations in Glasgow here where I live and partly under ground were dated, smoky and dirty. The Low Level of Glasgow Central was shockingly horrible and terrible. Queen Street Low Level in fairness was not quite so bad and the old St Enoch Station was dilapidated! The line that ran under the city centre via Glasgow Central Low Level was eventually closed but when the suburban system started getting electrified the Aryle Line was brought back and a majhor part of the system unlike in steam days.

 

[JCitron]

I think for many of us who never saw steam trains in action, other than in museums, they are a novelty and therefore are something we see through those very popular rosy glasses. For those that lived through their messy, dirty operation, this was no picnic. For the railroads it wasn't just the smoke and dirt, it was also the hazards of running steam with the constant chance of boiler explosions, structure fires due to an errant cinder, the larger number of locomotives needed to roster for the same runs along with the support crew and shops, and most likely many, many other things as well.

In some ways, from what I've read in many places, the train crews and management welcomed the coming of the diesels and DMUs because of the fast turnarounds and cleanliness, and for management this meant a huge cost savings when steam was finally retired.

Though not related to British steam directly, here's an interesting article (PDF) from our own Boston and Maine Historical Society on the same subject and how the conversion to DMUs (Budd RDCs) on the commuter trains not only meant cleaner operations, but also less expensive operations due to crew reductions and fast turnarounds of equipment at the end of each run.

http://www.bmrrhs.org/s/How-the-BM-Uses-Budd-Cars-1948.pdf

Our railroad, mentioned in the article, dieselized early on and had shed its steam roster by the early 1950s. Other railroads followed suit and by the early 1960s there were no longer mainline steam operations. This all occurred long before I was born (being born in 1961). The B&M had already experimented with a few gas-electrics, aka Doodlebugs, in the 1930s and found them to be successful, however, it was the Budd RDCs for passenger use and the switch to the early diesels for freight which proved to be most successful.

John

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
Many thanks to John Citron and RJ Howie for their postings at #87 and #88 of this thread as I feel they sum up exactly how employees in the rail industry and passengers felt about steam motive power as the era drew to its close. In all walks of life we often find ourselves looking back "through rose coloured glasses" at things we have experienced in the past, especially as we reach our more "senior years". However, I believe if any person sits down and thinks through past events and experiences in depth, it often comes back that those events and happenings where not all the "height of happiness" and the lesser side of those lifetime experiences comes through.

Perhaps it is well that in quick memories it is in the main always the good things that we recall first of any experience in life. To use RJ Howies phrasing, as a wee lad I to loved to watch the steam trains. There is a park to the west side of Bristol Temple Meads station where the trains entering and leaving the station pass right by and close to the children's play area of the park which in those days contained the swings, roundabout and see-saw etc. When one of the "rely big express steamers" left or entered the station we would all start fighting at the top of the slider, as who could hold on at the very top of the appliance got the best view of the train. Trouble was when standing on the top of the ladder looking at the train, some other kid would always give you such a shove from behind that you would go head first down the slider.

Yes great memories, but as RJ stated, as we grew up and started to use those trains as part of our everyday lives the shortcomings of steam motive power soon become very apparent. However, as John Citron said many who remember those day still look back "through rose tinted glasses" to that era in our railways, and in all honesty, why not.

Bill

 

[amigacooke]

Yes great memories, but as RJ stated, as we grew up and started to use those trains as part of our everyday lives the shortcomings of steam motive power soon become very apparent. However, as John Citron said many who remember those day still look back "through rose tinted glasses" to that era in our railways, and in all honesty, why not.

Bill

I don't think that virtually anyone is suggesting that steam locomotives should once again rise to be the primary source of locomotion on Britain's railways. The advantages of diesel and electric locomotion are well understood. However, dragging this thread back to somewhere near its original point, this thread isn't about that. It about whether a TOC can use its chosen equipment in a safe manner on the UK rail network. Whether that equipment is steam, diesel or electric powered is not directly relevant to that question

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

snip~However, dragging this thread back to somewhere near its original point, this thread isn't about that. It about whether a TOC can use its chosen equipment in a safe manner on the UK rail network. Whether that equipment is steam, diesel or electric powered is not directly relevant to that question~snip

amigacooke, at some point this month (May 2016) the courts of justice will judge if indeed a train operating company can safely run heritage stock on Britain's rail network. West Coast Railways and the driver involved in the Wotton Bassett spad will face charges under the Health and Safety at Work Act in regard to that incident. I believe that the case is due to be heard at Bristol Crown Court. I am not sure however on exactly which day this month the case is due to start, assuming that there is not yet another adjournment allowed for whatever reason following another application by the company or its employee.

It would seem that west Coast Railways are being charged under sections 2 and 3 of the above act ( employers duty of care) in that they did not carry out adequate and sufficient risk assessment(s) in regards to the operation of their heritage units and also that they did not adequately train out their employees in regards to the risks that were brought forward in the assessments that they did complete.

The driver of the train is being charged under sections 7 and 8 of the above act ( employees duty of care) in that he knowingly endangered himself, other employees on the West Coast Railways train along with the passengers on that train. Further charges relate to endangering other train operators in the vicinity of the Wotton Bassett Junction, their staff and passengers on those trains. The foregoing charges are in regard to the driver allegedly instructing another member of the footplate crew to disable the automated train protection system.

amigacooke, doubtless many questions will be asked in Court in regard to the safe operation of heritage stock on Britain's railways. it is believed that there are solicitors representing and acting on behalf of a group of passengers on the HST service that came within a minute of colliding with the west Coast Railways train. Those same solicitors are also acting for a group of the passengers that were on the West Coast Railways train in that both groups are planning a class action for compensation against WCRC should the company or driver be convicted of the above.

So, interesting days ahead in regard to the operation of Heritage services on Britain's rail network and whether they can be safely operated. However in regard to the charges, certainly, I do not feel that these convictions are "cut and dried by any means" if you look at the charges and think about it. From all that can be read, getting convictions against both defendants would seem to be in several ways at odds with each other. However, we will see

Bill

 

[edh6]

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch released their report today into the Wooton Basset incident. There's 89 pages of it if you want some bedtime reading!

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../521033/R082016_160505_Wootton_Bassett_Jn.pdf

 

[JCitron]

Thanks Ed for posting!

You are right it's a bit of a dry read. I found my eyes glazing over - just kidding!

In all seriousness, from what I've read already, it appears that there are many mitigating factors here ranging from inattention by the drivers and disregard for warnings by the crew, to a poor signal setup. I foresee more than a few changes occurring at many levels.

These reports are similar to the ones produced by our NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board).

John

 

[clam1952]

I found it quite interesting, remains to be seen what happens with the forthcoming court case.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
Can I also join with John Citroen in thanking Ed for posting the Rail Accident Investigation Board report. For someone like me who has spent more than 30 years in industrial safety it certainly did make a good bedtime read (LOL). However, in reading the report in full it is undoubtedly a totally damning report in regards to the lack of safety culture within the company ( West Coast Railways) which transferred itself to the employees of that company in that they disregarded observations of the strict rule book governing rail operations.

In regards to this thread I believe there are several references within the report to matters of interest raised by forum members members. The foregoing matters are dealt with briefly between pages 34 and 48 of the report, and then in greater detail throughout the document and to keep this posting to a minimum I will take up two matters dealt with in the report.

There are three AWS warning devices fitted on the locomotive tangmere which was involved in the Wootton Bassett spad. However, the driver has stated that he was unaware of all three being activated and warning him due to "other duties in the cab". Therefore the driver did not acknowledge the AWS warning in the reset time and the AWS system automatically applied the brakes. The Rulebook states that in such an event the driver must allow the train to come to a complete stop and inform the signalling controller of how the event occurred before proceeding. However the footplate crew of the Tangmere did not wish the train to come to a complete stop as this can involve a considerable delay with a steam locomotive before it can proceed again.

In the foregoing the driver was aware that such a delay would also have a "knock on" delaying effect on other services and train operators in the vicinity which had caused severe problems to the company in previous similar events. It is alleged that the fireman then under instruction from the driver opened the AWS isolation valve with the effect of not only turning off the AWS system but also the TPS system leaving the driver as the trains only protection. However, what the driver did not realise was the AWS had activated in response to a signal on approach to the Wotton Bassett Junction being at amber which the driver had missed.

Therefore,It was the lower performance of heritage units operating on the British Rail Network and in that causing delays to other services which played a role in the Wotton Bassett spad as that crew were under pressure to avoid such delays to other services.

Employees of west Coast Railways have advised the RAIB that because of the limited vision from cabs of heritage steam locomotives that they very often put their heads out of the driver's side window to observe the track forward of the locomotive. However, when in that position it is possible for the driver to not see or hear the warning signals of the AWS system. The report observes that west Coast Railways no longer engage a third person on steam locomotive footplates ( namely a track inspector) relying instead on the fireman assisting the driver in signal observation.

Of course, in the above the fireman has his own duties, and it would seem that west Coast Railways had carried out no risk assessment on the removal of the track inspector or whether the fireman would be able to assist the driver In all situations.

The above brings into question the safe operation of steam locomotives when it would seem that even having two persons on the footplate responsible for the safety of the train that is still not sufficient. Also in regard to the above, if the driver of the train has to position his head outside of the cab window for suitable forward vision so as he he is unaware of any warning signals being activated within the cab, any person would have to wonder in regard to these locomotives remaining as suitable for Britain's mainline operation.

Bill

 

[Mike10]

Therefore,It was the lower performance of heritage units operating on the British Rail Network and in that causing delays to other services which played a role in the Wotton Bassett spad as that crew were under pressure to avoid such delays to other services.

Accommodation could be made in the schedule for the lower performance, whether other TOCs would be prepared to build some slack into the timetable around a specific service is a different issue.

The report observes that west Coast Railways no longer engage a third person on steam locomotive footplates ( namely a track inspector) relying instead on the fireman assisting the driver in signal observation.

Of course, in the above the fireman has his own duties, and it would seem that west Coast Railways had carried out no risk assessment on the removal of the track inspector or whether the fireman would be able to assist the driver In all situations.

The above brings into question the safe operation of steam locomotives when it would seem that even having two persons on the footplate responsible for the safety of the train that is still not sufficient. Also in regard to the above, if the driver of the train has to position his head outside of the cab window for suitable forward vision so as he he is unaware of any warning signals being activated within the cab, any person would have to wonder in regard to these locomotives remaining as suitable for Britain's mainline operation.

I would say from that it would appear it is not the locomotives per se, but rather their operation which is the issue.
I would have thought that if there was a third person on the footplate looking for the signals and/or observing the state of the warning systems when the driver has his head outside then the problem would be negated as he could draw the driver's attention to the state of the signal or the warning system.

Mike.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody

I would say from that it would appear it is not the locomotives per se, but rather their operation which is the issue.
If there was a third person on the footplate looking for the signals and/or observing the state of the warning systems when the driver has his head outside then the problem would be negated as he could draw the driver's attention to the state of the signal or the warning system. Mike

Agreed Mike10, and West Coast Railways have agreed with Network Rail to again have the traction Inspector back on the footplates. However the forgoing will only be when a suitable and sufficient risk assessment is not in place for the route being driven. That begs the question, how will Network Rail monitor that situation. Surely thay will not be able to inspect the crewing of every heritage tour route driven over by West Coast Raiways or review every risk assessment drawn up by the company, they simply would not have that number of staff.

In the above, with the safety record of this company, trusting them to police the matter from within the company is surely inviting more problems. In regard to having steam traction continue on the mainline network, much may well depend on the outcome of the prosecution(s) I feel. If charges are upheld by the court, then the judge may make some recommendations or the Office of Road and Rail carry out a full review of the matter.

Bill

 

[JCitron]

An interesting report it has been. From my observations afar, it appears to me that this tourist operation runs their trains more like a model railroader does than how they should be operated on the mainline. If I were a magistrate, I would have the organization's management removed from their duties, or at least fined substantially for their inaction.

John

 

[rjhowie]

You gave me a wee passing smile there John. I was a magistrate here in Scotland for 12 years!

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
Apologies for bumping this thread, but as the OP I have been away on holiday for a month and in that time I felt there have been developments in regard to West Coast Railways which have gone unreported on the forum.

In June the above heritage rail operator was fined a total of £260,000 for breaches of the UK Health & Safety at Work act in regard to the Wotton Bassett spad which took place in march 2015. The company pleaded guilty to all the charges laid against it at the high court hearing.

The driver of the steam locomotive also pleaded guilty to two charges laid against him under the same act and was handed down a four month prison sentence suspended for eighteen months. The driver was also ordered to pay a victim surcharge (amount unknown) and was also ordered to carry out eighty hours of unpaid community work.

However, the foregoing will not end of the matter for West Coast Railways, as solicitors acting for the passengers on both trains involved in the spad are preparing (according to reports) compensation claims for both groups.

A parliamentary lobby group drawn up from regular rail commuters has also formed which has succeeded in gaining a meeting with government transport ministers to discuss the unrestricted use of heritage locomotives and rolling stock on Britain's mainline network. That meeting will take place sometime in the autumn when Parliament reassembles

Still much to be heard on this one I feel.
Bill.