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We have a copyist posting content to the DLS that is not theirs.
- Thread starter narrowgauge
- Start date
Surely this once again highlights it's time for N3V to revisit their "open access" policy and impose strict restrictions on what can and can't be done with other peoples content? The technology/programming presumably exists as several years ago Blue Sky Interactive locked down their supplied content and N3V seem quite hot when it comes to putting protection on payware. Having been a victim of it in one of the other sims, it's not nice when you see someone upload a cloned version of your work claiming it as their own. N3V not only need to reassure us as to a zero tolerance policy in the matter, but get off their butts and support the creators by putting active not reactive protective measures in place.
shaneturner12
Tutorial Creator
Whilst I agree that what the user mentioned in the OP is doing is wrong, I'm concerned that adding protective measures may have unintended consequences particularly for those having to do content repairs or if a user already has permission to upload another user's content (I can think of at least one case of that).
Shane
Shane
Oh come on Shane, it's not exactly rocket science. I have in the past given permission for my routes to be modified - Dalmunzie and West Highland - whatever measures are put in place it is up to N3V to ensure the original KUID owner can unlock the content to another specified user/KUID. And as regards the "repair" process, well that is an all new can of worms and again why should every Tom, Dick, Harry or Mr. A.N. Archist have free access to other peoples content? If that means something doesn't get updated, sobeit.
N3V not only need to reassure us as to a zero tolerance policy in the matter
Well, that's the easy bit. If your content is uploaded to the DLS by another user without your permission, then just get in contact with our helpdesk and we'll have it taken down. There is a EULA which governs DLS usage and we will hold you to the terms.
..but get off their butts and support the creators by putting active not reactive protective measures in place.
That's a little more tricky. There are basically three existing options for users here:
1. If you really want to be sure that nobody else has access to your content, don't redistribute it. Don't even pass it to trusted friends.
2. If you want to distribute it in a commercial manner, we have the payware systems available. This doesn't completely prevent copying - people could still take screenshots of your textures or use other similar techniques - but it does move it from something that can be done trivially to something where you'd need serious time, effort, and skill to circumvent.
3. Distribute it via the DLS, direct sharing, or other websites and keep your eyes open for piracy. If you see any piracy on the DLS, you can just contact our helpdesk to get it fixed up. If you see any piracy on other websites, we're obviously unable to help you- you'll need to speak with the owners of those websites.
There's an argument to be had that we could implement youtube-style content detection to block unwanted uploads to the DLS, but in practice this idea is flawed:
* We're not Google. We can't afford to hire a team of people to develop and manage an advanced system for content recognition. Simplistic systems such as hashes are both much more likely to introduce false positives ("hey, you're using the same black texture as this other guy") and also false negatives ("nah, your texture has a one-pixel difference from the copyrighted one, it's all good").
* Any such system would fall afoul of various forms of abuse - this is a fairly common complaint with Youtube - where the person filing the report doesn't actually own the content in question, or the item actually falls under fair use.
* As the DLS is not the sole method of content distribution, blocking content at this level won't block intentional piracy. At best, we'd stop the people who don't know any better. We already prevent this kind of thing by simply pulling down the reported content.
* This won't actually work unless all of the creators involved upload their content to the DLS first. In the best case, content which hasn't been uploaded simply won't be recognised by such a system. In the worst case, content will be recognised as belonging to the pirate, since they uploaded it first. Sorting this kind of thing out is problematic enough when it's a rare event; if it was an automated system then you could expect problems to occur on a very regular basis.
my 2c,
chris
cascaderailroad
New member
What bothers me is the gall that it takes, for someone to open up a clone of your asset, and alter the config file description, and either delete it, and reword the description, and place a lie phrase like: "With kind permission from the author I have redone or reskined this asset", when in fact the cloner never even bothered to contact the original author, and never even got permission to alter the asset. They just thought it would be a "Way Cool" thing to do, to paint a counterfeit copy of the Mona Lisa, and claim it as their own works ... not to mention that it is a bad paint job, and a poor attempt at reskining, is an insult to the original creator. Some people (in this day and age) just lack any mentality of any form of respect ... as do what they want, as they purely do not care about respect.
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What bothers me is the gall that it takes, for someone to open up a clone of your asset, and alter the config file description ... as do what they want, as they purely do not care about respect.
Since there is no money involved, the piracy/violation is not for financial gain, then that makes it even more galling. One can only conclude that the purpose of the copying is for personal gratification ("look how many assets I have uploaded to the DLS") and that, to me, indicates that the poster suffers from immaturity, low self esteem, lack of social skills (maybe he is a nerd who really is afraid of girls - and it is most likely to be a young male), or all of these. That makes it impossible to try to reason with them.
With all due respect to Chris' (Windwalker) comments, he is simply restating what is, not how it perhaps needs to be.
If everyone kept their content to themselves, we wouldn't have much of a community. The strength of Trainz vs. the other sims is the wealth of content that is available, without that and the goodwill of those who create it we would be much worse off.
Not everyone wants to or can be a "payware" partner.
So that leaves us round the circle again as to how to protect the rights of those uploading content generously offered after weeks or even months slaving away for the benefit of others. The simple fact is, times have changed and moved on from the simpler early days, when pretty much everyone knew each other and there was a generosity of spirit and fair play supported by all. All we are asking is rather than waiting for "reactive" solutions, some measure of protection same as the payware mob is offered to the freeware crowd. Doesn't have to be compulsory but surely it's both a better deterrent and better to stop the situation occurring in the first place? In my case as a route builder, it's relatively easy to keep track of whether someone is cloning my work and claiming it as their own but I feel for those who are regularly falling victim to this and have to wait until someone spots the offence.
If everyone kept their content to themselves, we wouldn't have much of a community. The strength of Trainz vs. the other sims is the wealth of content that is available, without that and the goodwill of those who create it we would be much worse off.
Not everyone wants to or can be a "payware" partner.
So that leaves us round the circle again as to how to protect the rights of those uploading content generously offered after weeks or even months slaving away for the benefit of others. The simple fact is, times have changed and moved on from the simpler early days, when pretty much everyone knew each other and there was a generosity of spirit and fair play supported by all. All we are asking is rather than waiting for "reactive" solutions, some measure of protection same as the payware mob is offered to the freeware crowd. Doesn't have to be compulsory but surely it's both a better deterrent and better to stop the situation occurring in the first place? In my case as a route builder, it's relatively easy to keep track of whether someone is cloning my work and claiming it as their own but I feel for those who are regularly falling victim to this and have to wait until someone spots the offence.
With all due respect to Chris' (Windwalker) comments, he is simply restating what is, not how it perhaps needs to be.
I'd encourage you to read my comment again. I address some of the reasons why the obvious "proactive" solution won't work.
If you have an alternative suggestion, please share your ideas.. I can't promise that we'll implement any given suggestion, but we certainly listen.
cheers,
chris
Well I'm not a programmer Chris so I defer to N3V what can and can't be done with the current or any future freeware content management system.
However, as an author I should be able to specify on uploading an item what restrictions (if any) I would like to apply to my intellectual property and have that enforced (perhaps too strong a word) by the software.
That's really all I have to say on the matter, back to working on some routes I'm looking forward to sharing with the community.
However, as an author I should be able to specify on uploading an item what restrictions (if any) I would like to apply to my intellectual property and have that enforced (perhaps too strong a word) by the software.
That's really all I have to say on the matter, back to working on some routes I'm looking forward to sharing with the community.
Pretty much a forgone conclusion that whatever preventative measure was applied some bright spark would post how to circumvent it on one of the other forums, it's a no win situation in my opinion.
One could I suppose implement an optional no editing config tag in the config which could perhaps block access to the config file and cloning the asset?
One could I suppose implement an optional no editing config tag in the config which could perhaps block access to the config file and cloning the asset?
I too am the author of some DLS content and would love for some fool proof method to keep it from being cloned and uploaded. Usually only keeps the fools out but not everyone. One of the hazards of sharing is the risk that someone will rain of my parade.
One way I can think of is some form of two factor encryption. The creator encrypts an object using N3V's public key and uplaods. Then Trainz decrypts in game using the private key to use the object in a route. It would never be publicly visible on disk in a non-encrypted state. The DLS would be able to validate the onbject as per normal. Any 3rd party site would not need to be able open the object itself since it would only be hosting.
All new uploads would be protected. Not sure how to deal with all the existing objects which could still be cloned and uploaded.
One way I can think of is some form of two factor encryption. The creator encrypts an object using N3V's public key and uplaods. Then Trainz decrypts in game using the private key to use the object in a route. It would never be publicly visible on disk in a non-encrypted state. The DLS would be able to validate the onbject as per normal. Any 3rd party site would not need to be able open the object itself since it would only be hosting.
All new uploads would be protected. Not sure how to deal with all the existing objects which could still be cloned and uploaded.
I too am the author of some DLS content and would love for some fool proof method to keep it from being cloned and uploaded. Usually only keeps the fools out but not everyone. One of the hazards of sharing is the risk that someone will rain of my parade.
One way I can think of is some form of two factor encryption. The creator encrypts an object using N3V's public key and uplaods. Then Trainz decrypts in game using the private key to use the object in a route. It would never be publicly visible on disk in a non-encrypted state. The DLS would be able to validate the onbject as per normal. Any 3rd party site would not need to be able open the object itself since it would only be hosting.
All new uploads would be protected. Not sure how to deal with all the existing objects which could still be cloned and uploaded.
I'll take what Martin said a step further... unique kuids -- we all got a prefix kuids... somehow make the prefix kuid unique, like Martin's public key ID idea tp encrypt it ... hand-and-hand.... someone download, but can't open the item since their kuids (product) will be different then the encypted kuids --- I guess the issue is about cloning, that's the problem ...
Make sense!?
Ish
cascaderailroad
New member
On the DLS only, (not on 3rd party sites) ... an asset can be copy protected, like PhilC did with his locos ... which prevents the asset from being opened, and edited ... as well as preventing it from being cloned ... which screws us all ... just because of some evil doers out there who have no respect, nor any morals
On the DLS only, (not on 3rd party sites) ... an asset can be copy protected, like PhilC did with his locos ... which prevents the asset from being opened, and edited ... as well as preventing it from being cloned ... which screws us all ... just because of some evil doers out there who have no respect, nor any morals
Hi Cas,
Not necessarily, and this is why ... Like You, John, Malc, O, Martin and many others who participate daily in these forums, I can see a creator allowing us to reskin their work when asked .... believe it, or not the community is very generous when people use the right channels to reach out and communicate and ask permission. I
It's these novice boys, who are not participating daily, and just comes to the forum once a month to steal from the cookie jar without participating in anything trainz related.
That's how I see it!
Ish
Before venting here I need to explain that I am strictly against stealing someone's creations for any possible purpose.
But c'mon guys, I think some of you are getting a little overboard here. I mean...encryting or 'protecting' assets because one kid doesn't understand (yet) what his actions mean? That will change the core purpose of Trainz. What if I want to merge two layouts for my own use? What if I want to reskin something for my own use? Those things would be impossible. What if I want to download a route to strip some of it, add some of my own stuff to it and want to test it so I can upload it to DLS AFTER having asked the original creator if he allows it? That would be impossible too.
Kids like the one this thread is about need to get a severe virtual wristslap from N3V with a warning. Does he continue, enforce a (temporary) ban to show this isn't a joke. Does he do it again after the temp ban? Change it to a perm ban. N3V can do much with this, but preventing something like config.txt or any other part of a freeware asset to be edited will make a lot of people abandon Trainz, including me. For obvious reasons.
But c'mon guys, I think some of you are getting a little overboard here. I mean...encryting or 'protecting' assets because one kid doesn't understand (yet) what his actions mean? That will change the core purpose of Trainz. What if I want to merge two layouts for my own use? What if I want to reskin something for my own use? Those things would be impossible. What if I want to download a route to strip some of it, add some of my own stuff to it and want to test it so I can upload it to DLS AFTER having asked the original creator if he allows it? That would be impossible too.
Kids like the one this thread is about need to get a severe virtual wristslap from N3V with a warning. Does he continue, enforce a (temporary) ban to show this isn't a joke. Does he do it again after the temp ban? Change it to a perm ban. N3V can do much with this, but preventing something like config.txt or any other part of a freeware asset to be edited will make a lot of people abandon Trainz, including me. For obvious reasons.
Problem appears to have been solved as his latest uploads are now showing as Unknown Location, in fact most of his uploads are now.
These discussions probably won't cause N3V to lock down assets it may however get the message across to anyone reading this thread who is likely to indulge in illegally copying stuff to think about it and not do it!
These discussions probably won't cause N3V to lock down assets it may however get the message across to anyone reading this thread who is likely to indulge in illegally copying stuff to think about it and not do it!