Tutorial: Getting the most from PBR and why you should be using it in TRS19
- Thread starter MSGSapper
- Start date
Randall:
I am not seeing that floating effect on my TRS19 routes. Here is a screenshot of a non-PBR based building (NZ House 1-1) sitting on top of my <kuid:439337:101925> PBR Grass 15 - Truly Seasonal ground texture which is set to max scale. FYI I have not adjusted the height of the building:
You will however often see PBR ground textures that often popup through concrete slabs, roads, platforms and other materials that are not very high. These legacy items (ie; pre-build 4.6) were designed for 2D ground textures that had no height. On my routes I have replaced most of these things with my own better roads, platforms and slabs that are designed to be a bit higher and not show 3D ground textures poping up through them. Anything on the DLS that comes from me has been adjusted to deal with this issue. One thing to remember in regard to ground textures: Old 2D textures do not play well with the new 3D PBR ground textures so either use all 3D PBR ground textures or use all 2D legacy ground textures (pre-build 4.6) on your route.
It is helpful to use a ballast that matches that which is used in the TRS19 track which you are using and comes from the same author. Here is a screenshot using my <kuid:439337:103422> PBR Ballast 2 ground texture set at just slightly above zero scale along side my <kuid:439337:103196> TRS19 SAP Track U.S. 132LB SG, FB, TP with Spikes, Shiny:
I would suggest you download and look in Surveyor at my <kuid2:439337:102423:2> Cattaraugus Creek & Lake Erie 1950s - TRS19 to see how I did things. The screenshots comes from this route.
Bob
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Strangely, when have the second “Shadow quality” at “Low” I see the asset with a similar/same brightness as in Blender.
But, when I switch the second “Shadow quality” to high as suggested, It becomes quite dark. I say “strangely” because this does not appear to happen with MSGSapper’s <kuid:439337:106078> SAP_Passenger_Station1_1T_PBR.
I am working on an iMac running Mojave OS X 10.14.6 running and Blender 2.81 and TRS19 version 106113.
Any suggestions?
Cayden
But, when I switch the second “Shadow quality” to high as suggested, It becomes quite dark. I say “strangely” because this does not appear to happen with MSGSapper’s <kuid:439337:106078> SAP_Passenger_Station1_1T_PBR.
I am working on an iMac running Mojave OS X 10.14.6 running and Blender 2.81 and TRS19 version 106113.
Any suggestions?
Cayden
Sek_Hakuna
Member
Thanks for the reply msgsapper.
I tried to recreate the effect I talked about earlier and did not see the "floating" effect I had encountered. I then did just what you said not to....I mixed the PBR with a regular texture and got the floating building.
You're a smart guy MSGSapper.
Randall
I tried to recreate the effect I talked about earlier and did not see the "floating" effect I had encountered. I then did just what you said not to....I mixed the PBR with a regular texture and got the floating building.
You're a smart guy MSGSapper.
Randall
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ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
TRS19 uses various conversion algorithms to convert legacy materials to PBR materials. Note that these are fixed algorithms, and as such not all configurations of the material may convert perfectly.
For example, the more basic materials such as m.onetex which only provide a diffuse texture and a 'set' value for the specular (depending on which exporter you use, this may either be a fixed value, or a creator configured value). So fixed values for metalness, AO, normals, etc are used. The 'specular' value, from memory, is used for the roughness but is not a direct conversion IIRC.
On the other hand the 'tbumpenv' material is pretty much the 'legacy' equivalent of pbrmetal, and as such provides Trainz with most of the information needed to convert it to PBR. It provides diffuse (albedo), reflection intensity (metalness, with some adjustment IIRC), normals, specular (roughness - inverted, and slightly adjusted IIRC), and I think the 'emissive' is captured from the material settings. AO is a fixed value.
In all legacy material conversions, no support is provided for heightmaps. These are only available for true PBR assets.
Regards
Sorry, but not being familiar with the MAC version of Trainz, nor the MAC in general, I can't really help you here on this one. Perhaps someone else can?
Bob
Zec:
That was very helpful information that contained much that I did not know about the inner workings of TRS19 with PBR. Thanks!
Bob
Yes, I do that frequently in my route upgrading efforts. You will however need to make adjustments and correct some anomalies that popup.....
Bob
Getting the most from PBR (asset appearance)
After reading the initial post of this thread and then observing some strange result with my assets, post #23 of this thread, I decided to play a round a bit with the appearance settings to see what might be optimal for PBR texturing. My computer is an iMac running Mojave OS x 10.14.6 and TRS19 version 106113. I also use Blende 2.81 to PBR texture my assets. The following are observation of appearance and are certainly not optimal performance settings. In fact, with the optimal settings I arrived at or appearance TRS19 cannot be used on my iMac. I didn’t measure the frame rate but it has got to be less than 10. That’s okay. I use T:ANE wen I want to run Trainz. I simply use TRS19 to create PBR textures content.
So what does an asset look like when texture setting are set to the max; Shadow quality = Ultra, Main shadow resolution = 4096, Shader quality = Ultra and Texture detail = High?
All texture settings set to the maximum.
Note that shadows are present (1), with a sharp edge (2), but an anomaly is also present, a thin line (3). Another anomaly, light stripe, is present for the shadow of the eve (4). The bale has good detail (5) with shadows on the end and under side (6) and the bale casts a shadow on the front wall of the stable (7).
Now let’s reduce Shadow quality from Ultra to High. Nothing much changes so this setting can probably be reduced to High.
Shadow quality set to High.
Let’s reduced the Shadow quality, from High to Medium. The shadows of the stable and the bale disappear. So, again a setting of High is probably optimal.
Shadow quality set to Medium.
Let’s put Shadow quality back to Ultra and reduce Shader quality from Ultra to Standard. Note that the anomalies (3 and 4) have disappeared.
Shadow quality 2 set to Standard.
Let’s reduce Shader quality further, from Standard to Low. The shadow on the end and underside of the bale (6) disappears. So, a setting for Shader quality of Standard is probably optimal.
Shadow quality 2 set to Low.
Let’s reduce Texture detail from Ultra to Normal. Nothing much happens.
Texture detail set to Normal.
Let’s reduce Texture detail further, from Normal to Low. The bale becomes decidedly blurred (6). So, a setting for Texture detail of Normal is probably optimal.
Texture quality set to Low.
Now. Let’s combine all three optimal settings:
Shadow quality = High
Shader quality = Standard
Texture detail = Normal
Optimal texture settings.
I skipped over the Main shadow resolution. Reducing it from 4096 to 2048 blurs the shadows (2), which may or may not be desirable.
Main shadow resolution set to 2048.
These setting appear to give the best appearance to my PBR assets, but not performance. When I want to run Trainz, I use T:ANE.
Cayden
After reading the initial post of this thread and then observing some strange result with my assets, post #23 of this thread, I decided to play a round a bit with the appearance settings to see what might be optimal for PBR texturing. My computer is an iMac running Mojave OS x 10.14.6 and TRS19 version 106113. I also use Blende 2.81 to PBR texture my assets. The following are observation of appearance and are certainly not optimal performance settings. In fact, with the optimal settings I arrived at or appearance TRS19 cannot be used on my iMac. I didn’t measure the frame rate but it has got to be less than 10. That’s okay. I use T:ANE wen I want to run Trainz. I simply use TRS19 to create PBR textures content.
So what does an asset look like when texture setting are set to the max; Shadow quality = Ultra, Main shadow resolution = 4096, Shader quality = Ultra and Texture detail = High?
All texture settings set to the maximum.
Note that shadows are present (1), with a sharp edge (2), but an anomaly is also present, a thin line (3). Another anomaly, light stripe, is present for the shadow of the eve (4). The bale has good detail (5) with shadows on the end and under side (6) and the bale casts a shadow on the front wall of the stable (7).
Now let’s reduce Shadow quality from Ultra to High. Nothing much changes so this setting can probably be reduced to High.
Shadow quality set to High.
Let’s reduced the Shadow quality, from High to Medium. The shadows of the stable and the bale disappear. So, again a setting of High is probably optimal.
Shadow quality set to Medium.
Let’s put Shadow quality back to Ultra and reduce Shader quality from Ultra to Standard. Note that the anomalies (3 and 4) have disappeared.
Shadow quality 2 set to Standard.
Let’s reduce Shader quality further, from Standard to Low. The shadow on the end and underside of the bale (6) disappears. So, a setting for Shader quality of Standard is probably optimal.
Shadow quality 2 set to Low.
Let’s reduce Texture detail from Ultra to Normal. Nothing much happens.
Texture detail set to Normal.
Let’s reduce Texture detail further, from Normal to Low. The bale becomes decidedly blurred (6). So, a setting for Texture detail of Normal is probably optimal.
Texture quality set to Low.
Now. Let’s combine all three optimal settings:
Shadow quality = High
Shader quality = Standard
Texture detail = Normal
Optimal texture settings.
I skipped over the Main shadow resolution. Reducing it from 4096 to 2048 blurs the shadows (2), which may or may not be desirable.
Main shadow resolution set to 2048.
These setting appear to give the best appearance to my PBR assets, but not performance. When I want to run Trainz, I use T:ANE.
Cayden
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It is somewhat arrogant of the OP to assert we should all be using PBR textures...
We know these have issues, both in terms of performance - do we really need to paint distant hills 6km away with PBR when one of the clam1952 or MLK textures will serve the purpose quite nicely?
Doing a traditional swirl of these ground textures is also bad for performance, but laying without rotating you get a tiled and repeating effect with many of them.
We also know that PBR does not play well close up with older assets, particularly splines where it can overlap, or meeting non PBR ground textures.
While there is a mix of old and new in our Trainz projects, it will never be possible to go all PBR and, frankly, it is down to the individual route author to make a choice. In terms of building assets, doesn't use of PBR also require access to high end graphics applications which may not be affordable by the average hobby simmer?
We know these have issues, both in terms of performance - do we really need to paint distant hills 6km away with PBR when one of the clam1952 or MLK textures will serve the purpose quite nicely?
Doing a traditional swirl of these ground textures is also bad for performance, but laying without rotating you get a tiled and repeating effect with many of them.
We also know that PBR does not play well close up with older assets, particularly splines where it can overlap, or meeting non PBR ground textures.
While there is a mix of old and new in our Trainz projects, it will never be possible to go all PBR and, frankly, it is down to the individual route author to make a choice. In terms of building assets, doesn't use of PBR also require access to high end graphics applications which may not be affordable by the average hobby simmer?
PBR is not just about ground textures but rather giving the user the opportunity to see objects in a scene as they might appear in real life. I very much doubt Bob was being arrogant but rather reflecting his opinion. If you read Zec's post at post #25 then it appears that in TRS19 we are already using them regardless of the material used.
I've been dabbling with PBR since it was first announced and am convinced this is the right path for N3V. I agree that some ground textures can look odd at acute angles. Perhaps N3V could reduce the height effect for those situations.
We've had repeating textures for a long time. It's actually very difficult to avoid them on some assets, such as building roofs, unless you use a plain image without marks because those marks will show up.
Lets be pragmatic about this. It remains early days for asset creators and PBR, and as we gain experience then perhaps we can do better.
The last thing we should do is attack those who take the time to create assets that others will use.
Not attacking anyone Paul, just pointing out that Trainz functions at all levels and a wrongly worded assertion could discourage people from producing content at all.
This happened back in the day with MSTS, where at UKTS in particular some holier than thou types tried to assert that any British route not built with UK Finescale track and with the lines properly fenced etc. etc. wasn't worth a gob of spit. Contemporarily, I've seen similar sentiments expressed in the Alan Thomson Facebook group for the DTG sims, where anything not up to some mythical standard seems to be derided.
And certainly where Trainz is concerned, little point in building a model using the latest techniques, if it then ends up aliased to 2003 Auran sounds and the old Class 37 or Class 47 cab, from similar era, complete with AWS sunflower!
This happened back in the day with MSTS, where at UKTS in particular some holier than thou types tried to assert that any British route not built with UK Finescale track and with the lines properly fenced etc. etc. wasn't worth a gob of spit. Contemporarily, I've seen similar sentiments expressed in the Alan Thomson Facebook group for the DTG sims, where anything not up to some mythical standard seems to be derided.
And certainly where Trainz is concerned, little point in building a model using the latest techniques, if it then ends up aliased to 2003 Auran sounds and the old Class 37 or Class 47 cab, from similar era, complete with AWS sunflower!
I have corrected the post. Thanks for pointing it out. I really need to get these cataracts out!
Cayden
I downloaded it and now I am in the process of downloading hundreds of items that I did not have but your route needed.
There are two unknown assets from author Auran:
661281:75013
661281:75012
Any suggestions?
With this statement I could not agree more... We can choose to stay in the past or embrace the future, I for one left trainz 8 years ago over this very issue. I remember people arguing with me cause my trs12 payware would clog up trs06, 09,tc3 and trs10 because of the detail and normal maps.. Not to mention things like animation and lights LOL But it is 2020 and seriously if you are not modeling for trs19 and beyond you are modeling for a dying genre....
Well if having users say bad things about your content upsets you, I guess you are making content for the wrong reason... I make content for ME, and I do it because it either does not exist or does not exist at the level I think I could do it. For example I am getting ready to do a set of PBR containers. Not because I do not like what everyone before me has done, but because it is 2020 and we have the computer horsepower to do it and the game STILL run fine.
I have designed content for games that do twice what trs19 does graphically and watched it work without a hitch. So with all that said you can kind of see what side I fall on LOL PBR for LIFE ...
Ecco:
<kuid:661281:75012> Tree Broadleaf 01 Darker
<kuid:661281:75013> Tree Broadleaf 02 Darker
Both are from the <kuid2:154322:100063:15> ECML EDINBURGH - DUNDEE DLC.
Bob
Its been a long time since I was called arrogant by someone. Apparently you misunderstood my intent here so I will clarify. As I stated in my original OP, many people don't understand what PBR is and what it does compared to the old Trainz way of doing things (ie; pre-TRS19 major Trainz versions). This tutorial from me was created to help those folks understand PBR and explain what they needed to make it work and how to get the most out of it. This is education, not arrogance.
Whether you or others use it or not in the end makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever, and it is certainly your personal choice, as it always has been. Of course if you didn't want to use PBR, why did you purchase TRS19 in the first place? After all, the only real draw for the high cost TRS19 (compared to the T:ANE version which is almost half the price), is its much better overall graphics rendering capability compared to previous major Trainz versions and this includes the TurfFX and Clutter effects as well.
All my current content creation efforts are now directed toward PBR simply because it makes things look much more realistic, and in Model Railroading, real or computer simulation, realism is the holy grail for most in the hobby. At least it is for me. I currently have over 2200 items on the DLS and develop more all the time. I don't do this for your sake, but mine. Why?
Because I want my routes, of which I have many on the DLS, to look as good and as realistic as they can so I create content of my own that looks better then what is currently available on the DLS to replace older items that the original authors have either abandoned or have not kept up with the times. I place these items on the DLS toward that end, and allow others to use them on their own route creations as well. PBR, even for all its present quirks, simply looks better than the old graphics of T:ANE and earlier versions. I wish I could replace every other authors non-PBR content items with my own, but there is simply not enough hours in the day to do that, and just too many items to even consider that.
PBR being a niche? Hardly. Almost all of the top of the line and most popular action games and simulations currently available on Steam use this standard and have for some time. TRS19 is simply adopting, somewhat late I would admit, this graphics rendering standard. There is no going back on this if TRS19 is to remain competitive in the gaming and simulation market, and N3V should have adopted that graphics standard much sooner in my opinion.
BTW the argument about not being able to afford better graphics cards is simply bogus unless you are really, really cash strapped. I did some checking on Amazon and a EVGA GeForce GTX 1060 3GB SC GAMING, ACX 2.0 (Single Fan), 3GB GDDR5, DX12 OSD Support (PXOC), 03G-P4-6162-KR is going for a fairly affordable $160.00 versus $700-$800 for a EVGA 1080 Graphics card.
FYI a EVGA 1060 graphics card, or above, can handle PBR fairly well, although you might have to tweek a few settings to get the best frame rates for that card.
Bob
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johnwhelan
Well-known member
Quite a few Trainzers are really really cash strapped. It's a hobby that you can have for very little outlay. Even being able to add a GTX 1060 to an existing machine may not be possible. Laptops for example, some of the small form factor PCs with small none standard power supplies. I think N3V did a survey of hardware some time ago and the average GPU was much lower than I expected. So the target market for PBR is going to be the top 10-20% of the current users it certainly isn't for everyone and to me that means niche.
I'm afraid after reading your posts I'm not much clearer on what PBR is. I use photos quite often as textures but I've no idea if I can do that with PBR. What I call the heavies seem to be using some rather expensive software to create the textures. I even picked up a couple and after playing with them I'm still none the wiser.
No doubt PBR will come in time but I don't think it is absolutely critical at the moment. It will take time to understand it and come up with tutorials. Recently someone asked what software should they use for creation. Probably Blender but Blender 2.8 tutorials for trainz are thin on the ground. Blender 2.8 with PBR well yes but for a beginner. I don't know but I suspect it is not ideal especially judging from some of the comments in this thread. I'm not sure the infrastructure is in place.
TS19, it also has fewer bugs in it, and doesn't wonder off into database rebuilds quite as often as TANE besides the PBR stuff.
Whilst I understand in the US Military service is held by many to be marvelous it sometimes can make difficulties for an exmilitary person who is used to command to soften their approach when dealing with civilians and that is when you maybe misunderstood and be misunderstood as arrogant.
Cheerio John