Turnout Naming
- Thread starter frogpipe
- Start date
Thanks to all, for a really good read -- save for the unnecessary snipping!
But Huh!? Why would the command que for that AI be affected by anything but the order I entered them in the command list? The order on the map doesn't matter a hill of beans if I'm correctly specifying the correct TM or TM sequences. // F
I Try to limit those longer namings between 5-7 characters, and most TMs are pairs or in sequence with suffixes like 'Phoenix--MtnTop-2', 'GrnWdN--LeisctrN-3' or 'KirkwdE--Billings-2. Reverse the sequence of suffix orders navigating from Mountain Top back to Phoenix. Seven makes for some clear and distinct easy to reproduce and recall syntaxes. My two large basement empire on steroid fictional routes are mountainous terrain so tend to be snarly with wye offshoots, spirals, and some of those make up part of loops--all with a fair amount of single trackage on long runs. Then I'd early on added reversing loops here and there so I could keep AI's running back and forth without portals.
Hence approach direction, when an AI might decide to take a longer scenic road when the track is busy need specify an occasional in-between waypoint or three. To keep the AI's from locking down a shared intermediate track, I use Drive Via and have a set of two to four intermediate waypoint trackmarks just short of a junction/signal block. 'GdWrch--Calbur-1' would be an outbound must take TM, whilst GdWrch--Calbur-1b might be before a switch onto the mainline on the return trip which should be used intead on that leg, signifying the parallel track in that stretch between Goodwrench and Calburton. [Yes, that day I'd recently saw a GM commercial!] The 'b' or 'r' for the back/return trip is obvious enough, and the two TMs sort next to one another.
If Calburton and Goodwrench have other points in-between, say a town with a passenger station, or industries the freights could care less about, I likely specify that as 'Duryea-BP' (by-pass) so the freight train AI avoids routing itself through the platform track, using the bypass/through traffic siding. This all works better for me since by basement empire design the whole perimeter of the 16w X 25 high route has a perimeter road meaning most roads out of the core center in fact become parts of loops, where they don't have a local reversing loop, and I used a fair number of those in the early daze as I added boards, not to mention embedded portals and a lot of villages cum stations and isolated industrial sidings. Getting specific with the AIs instructions was a survival tactic!
Agree that setting junctions without them being named would be a lot impossible, but perhaps those are rules he doesn't use. I tend to disarm such if I bother modifying a canned route or session, and only very rarely would I use them writing a session.Wow, bump of the century with an incredible idea.
I wonder how Set Junction or Release Junction might work on your route...
And god forbid someday you might want to run a train that doesn't follow all the trackmarks in that exact order.
But Huh!? Why would the command que for that AI be affected by anything but the order I entered them in the command list? The order on the map doesn't matter a hill of beans if I'm correctly specifying the correct TM or TM sequences. // F
Cascaderailroad, I Think you're missing a few of the bennies of layers, TMs for that session only being one that is obvious and useful for keeping a map uncluttered. Then the ability to change scenery with the layer so the same map can service different eras. Likewise Junctions or trackage vs. time and change. Or just as a way to lock off tracks by only providing a junction to said track in a yard as an added complexity in a session switching puzzle. Like you, I still work in TRS2006 now and again (Ever Notice they broke the DLS for older assets a couple of months back? Explicit kuids get 'replaced' by inappropriate upgraded versions that have to be retrofitted to T'06! Grrrrr!) OTOH, the searching by early alphabetized string start is still 'natural to me', but also still works fine so shouldn't prevent you from upgrading. You can avoid both layers and TADdaemon by going to TS2009-SP3 and have the benefit of the Pick List AND the ability to replace assets across the board. Not to mention all the new toys post v2-9! // F
Sounds good to me, but there is a rule like trigger check in T'06 which could tell (among other things) if you were at or passing a named junction or signal. Seems likely there might be a rule whose scripting could allow that sort of navigation. Anybody know of one? It would cut down on quite a few trackmarks if there is one, so I'm a willing customer! // F
Agree -- Piss on Windwalkr and Hilliam's decisions... not another's ways and of working with Trainz limitations. // F
I think I'm in love with you--too bad you ain't my type! What a great tip! I use a similar 3 letter scheme with a 'j' prefix in big yards, suffix N-S or E-W as up high in the thread. Same name prefix for TMs in same yards... so can sort as Cascader likes easily. Smaller places with less complicated trackage might get a longer abbreviation for clarity--it's big yard areas where I stay short and more cryptical--but the places are bigger and more important, so easier to remember for that reason. // F
I Try to limit those longer namings between 5-7 characters, and most TMs are pairs or in sequence with suffixes like 'Phoenix--MtnTop-2', 'GrnWdN--LeisctrN-3' or 'KirkwdE--Billings-2. Reverse the sequence of suffix orders navigating from Mountain Top back to Phoenix. Seven makes for some clear and distinct easy to reproduce and recall syntaxes. My two large basement empire on steroid fictional routes are mountainous terrain so tend to be snarly with wye offshoots, spirals, and some of those make up part of loops--all with a fair amount of single trackage on long runs. Then I'd early on added reversing loops here and there so I could keep AI's running back and forth without portals.
Hence approach direction, when an AI might decide to take a longer scenic road when the track is busy need specify an occasional in-between waypoint or three. To keep the AI's from locking down a shared intermediate track, I use Drive Via and have a set of two to four intermediate waypoint trackmarks just short of a junction/signal block. 'GdWrch--Calbur-1' would be an outbound must take TM, whilst GdWrch--Calbur-1b might be before a switch onto the mainline on the return trip which should be used intead on that leg, signifying the parallel track in that stretch between Goodwrench and Calburton. [Yes, that day I'd recently saw a GM commercial!] The 'b' or 'r' for the back/return trip is obvious enough, and the two TMs sort next to one another.
If Calburton and Goodwrench have other points in-between, say a town with a passenger station, or industries the freights could care less about, I likely specify that as 'Duryea-BP' (by-pass) so the freight train AI avoids routing itself through the platform track, using the bypass/through traffic siding. This all works better for me since by basement empire design the whole perimeter of the 16w X 25 high route has a perimeter road meaning most roads out of the core center in fact become parts of loops, where they don't have a local reversing loop, and I used a fair number of those in the early daze as I added boards, not to mention embedded portals and a lot of villages cum stations and isolated industrial sidings. Getting specific with the AIs instructions was a survival tactic!
I prefer Phil C's 'L SD40' or 'L GP38-2' etc in the details to segregate the locos I use. On the map or session I always prefix using properties by 'AaL-nn' then name it by tasking, or model or whatnot like 'AaL-07 Erie PA7 timber Trn'. When I CTRL-F in driving or surveyor, they used to group as the first items in TRS2006. THEY seem to have broken that since (I guess Aussies are resistant to ASCII or ANSI ordering), but they still group so the big-a, little-a and 'L-' quickly enough shows what I want to see. I haven't worked much with session editing yet in TS12, time permitting (darn little of it since April) I'm still trying to convert assets for those two routes, but since there are only a relative handful of locos on a route map and it's session, finding the right one to use with a rule should still be a minor task... and still aided by the AaL- prefix set with Properties when placing the Locos, so the other rolling stock becomes moot. // F
cascaderailroad
New member
Your AI drivers do not look for turnout names, they do not drive, nor navigate to/via, turnout names ... they use named trackmarkers as a location to drive to/via ... not junctions names
I've done that, once I adopted the AaL- prefixing schema. Trick is you need to check inside all the programmable rules too, but once the locos are renamed in properties, the rules consult the new list when you click on the internal programmable linking applets. Hence if you rename so the old name is obvious from the new, fixing such up is fairly straight forward and once and done. I haven't seen that scroll bar discussion, but infer that we're talking about a route+session with a lot of locos if the list is too long. One possible two step 'work-around' solution would be to delete any B locos and or triples... when such issues occur, then add them back after programming the driver session. Take a screenshot when visiting each to delete, then consult that in Window picture and fax viewer or Irfanview to revisit the places where you killed 'em off and so as to keep yourself straight. Paper and pencil lists work too! Tracking is tracking! // F
Asked and answered. NO. I've seen some routes with junctions named as NULL Strings (empty strings). Drove me nuts the first time I saw it! Named junctions are only necessary if there is a rule that uses the name, or equivilently a script using asset like ALS crossings or such that might consult the names state. The way the software routes from A to B via intervening junctions is a fairly simple and unsophisticated graph search algorithm, and as you guess, it's positional sensitive and couldn't care less about the names. Null string junction names tend to clean up mini-map clutter, so that can be quite useful. // F
Work around on that is to rename the trackmarks or whatever sharing names before the merge. Use freeware kdiff3 on an excerpted pair of string tables from the configs, rename on the one, then replace it in the one you are changing and merging in. Edit that in surveyor (move a tree or something) and save, and the binaries might adjust to the modified name... which is what the searching algorithms use.
Code:
norcross_passing_loop_wb "Norcross Passing Loop WB"
junctionsetter_norcross_clear "JunctionSetter Norcross Clear"
junctionsetter_norcross_passing_loop "JunctionSetter Norcross Passing Loop"
Code:
norcross_passing_loop_wb "Halcross Passing Loop WB"
junctionsetter_norcross_clear "JunctionSetter Halcross Clear"
junctionsetter_norcross_passing_loop "JunctionSetter Halcross Passing Loop"If it doesn't work, use the diff of the collisions to manually change them one by one in surveyor, then save that iterim version, then merge. I've done some similar merges hoping the same trackmark name would be used when the trackage was shared, but only the TMs from the one route worked okay, and the other didn't, so I had to re-edit those commands in the session. This was most likely when I was trying however, to port a session to a newer version of the map from an older. Don't recall for sure, it's been a while. But the method suggested is the best bet for success. The binary to human mapping is complex and it is perhaps forgivable it's not done better by N3V... they seem oblivious to the need so haven't addressed it. // F
Yet another good tip, John. (You're wasted playing those shoot-em-up games!) One trick I use to write and replicate sessions is to use a spreadsheet as a sequential flat file. Indent by columns just like using rules allows one to see the logical nesting, and use the next column or two after the rule name to specify it's optional program (e.g TRIGGER CHECK > AaL-03 Carson Coal Train, <br>FWD<br> And Consist with Cars WW,XX,YY && ZZ. ALT-ENTER allows the linebreak/manual wraps signified by the HTML <br> codes, so the wrapped details stay in the same spreadsheet cell. I like the idea of a hex editor to snoop the order when reconstructing such. The lack of an ability to clone and associate other sessions to a new version of a route is vexing to say the least, as is inability to import and export such bits of working command ques. Sigh. What else to expect from a company that thinks the thousands of customers should have to update code because they eliminated tags--when they could just ignore lines. I guess the whitepass, PhilCs and davesnows signed a permanent slavery agreement since N3V wants them to make unnecessary updates in perpetuity--conversions Trainz software could make automatically if they cared about the customers time! Sigh. // Frank
I just merged several routes, and not only were the track side objects duplicated, so were locomotives and rolling stock. I found the easiest fix, for me, was in "Find Object Menu" all of the duplicates were located there. Also when I changed a duplicate the rename was not always successful, I had to delete the object and then assign the new name again. For vehicles I just deleted them from the map.
John
John
Yeah, I saw a few instances of the need to delete and recreate trackmarks now that you remind me. If the routes were pre-v3.2, the rolling stock was listed on the Map assets, so the doubles seem likely. The key is the key-code (tag) in the string table (not the key-value, which is what is displayed and can be changed as preferred.) which is a symbol table in effect. Binary data definitions dereference to the same key names for string-table-XX (localisations) containers--hence display the localized strings in French, Spanish, German or English. If you edit the route to be merged so that key-code field in the string table changes, you should be able to massage the stub route to avoid such name collisions using the text diff mentioned easy enough.
Further is likely Peter V. (PEV) or Andi06 could tell us whether a global search and replace (GSAR) in and through all the files in the asset folder of the one map is possible (would work)... so the key name can be changed as well. Notepad++ among many tools would likely work even on the chump, trk and such binary files. The kicker is whether Trainz builds in a check-sum or CRC or other error check in the data files, then compares that to detect a corrupted asset file. The CRC or checksum will fail if only one letter is changed, or if the file length is changed.
Length of the key could also be a factor. If the data file has a lookup table header indexing an address down in the data, changing the length of the key (index) might displace all the following data, in effect corrupting the rest of the file since the lookup-table/index is now in part pointing at different bytes in the shifted data. Hence, change the names if you try this by keeping the same count of letters. If you can get that to work, then try changing the length of the symbol table keys.
Good luck--don't get crippled by all the extra typing when renaming! // Frank
The duplicates were never a problem before or at least I never noticed, but I have noticed with TS12 SP1 and up we can have duplicate-named objects on a route such as signs, stations, etc. This would probably happen with track marks as well since they are also objects on a route.
One of the issues I have run into when moving sessions forward is ghost consists. By this I mean consists that are still there in the session's config.txt file but not on the route. I noticed this one day while looking for the schedule rule information which I had found in the session's profile.dat.
John
One of the issues I have run into when moving sessions forward is ghost consists. By this I mean consists that are still there in the session's config.txt file but not on the route. I noticed this one day while looking for the schedule rule information which I had found in the session's profile.dat.
John
Try running the route you merged without any surveyor changes, especially if you have a Schedule Library from the previous route. I found that some of my level crossings were inop because of duplicate channel numbers. Check the lower numbers, these are where the conflicts are.
John
John
I ran into this too. This is probably due to the ASB settings being confused with the merger due to the way the settings are saved. The schedule library is saved, as I mentioned in the profile.dat file. I have yet to be able to save a session on a merger. These tend to get munched and end up empty after the merger. This is quite a pain when there are a gazillion track marks to re-enter on the route.
Using a text viewer called list.exe, which comes from some old tech tools from Microsoft, I was able to view it in a DOS window. There are hex-codes there too which show up as smiley faces and other high-order ASCII codes, but if these are ignored, the individual schedules can be seen. I highlighted the text and pulled out the pertinent information and pasted that into a text file for future references. This saved me from wandering all over the map, and I was able to enter in the schedule again in about an hour instead of several. Below is a snippet of the profile.dat file where the Schedule Library exists.
♣name ♥PVR Division to EVWR ---- North ♀ ♠group ☺♠ 2♠ ►driver-commands T ☻0 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 6 ♂properties % ♫trackmarkname ♥SWMCWye_WestApproach Q ☻1 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 3 ♂properties " ♫trackmarkname ♥End EVWR Division O ☻2 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 1 ♂properties ♫trackmarkname ♥SE Freedom Yard O ☻3 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 1 ♂properties ♫trackmarkname ♥SE Freedom Main O ☻4 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 1 ♂properties ♫trackmarkname ♥NE Freedom Main T ☻5 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 6 ♂properties % ♫trackmarkname ♥SE Clark City Siding T ☻6 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 6 ♂properties % ♫trackmarkname ♥NE Clark City Siding C ☻7 ↕ ◘command
² ß' % ♂properties ¶ ♫trackmarkname ♥3NB V ☻8 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 8 ♂properties ' ♫trackmarkname ♥SE Burkett Long Siding V ☻9 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 8 ♂properties ' ♫trackmarkname ♥NE Burkett Long Siding R ♥10 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 3 ♂properties " ♫trackmarkname ♥SE Cargill Siding R ♥11 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 3 ♂properties " ♫trackmarkname ♥NE Cargill Siding P ♥12 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 1 ♂properties ♫trackmarkname ♥NE Blackhawk T1 O ♥13 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 0 ♂properties ▼ ♫trackmarkname ♥SE Freeport T1 L ♥14 ↕ ◘command
² ß' - ♂properties ∟ ♫trackmarkname ♥Freeport T1 O ♥15 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 0 ♂properties ▼ ♫trackmarkname ♥NE Freeport T1 P ♥16 ↕ ◘command
² ß' 1 ♂properties ♫trackmarkname ♥SE Southland T1 a ♥17 ↕ ◘command
² J' B ♂properties ! industryname ♥Pioneer Portal T1 ♀
KingConrail76
Active member
A 2 year bump and a page of Nicky harrassing Cascade...
...what can an off-topic post possibly hurt at this point...
:hehe:
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Red_Rattler
Since 09 May 2003
Last night, I thought of another way to name turnouts. And that is to name the lines, or abbreviate the line names, then name turnouts in some sort of order.
I used a technique that's based on what the real railways do in my country. Over here the switches of each station are numbered. Odd numbers are at the odd end of the station while even numbers are at the even end of the station. The problem is that basically all stations have switches 1 and 2. To distinguish them between stations in Trainz, I use a 6 number station code from LDz as a prefix. (For me it would be easier to use the 3 number station code from passenger train company, but that only works if you model a passenger line)
So, when in Trainz passing through station Asote from east, the switches would be as follows:
114199 2
114199 1
For stations with many switches it would be something like this:
093700 02
093700 04
093700 06
093700 08
093700 10
093700 09
093700 07
093700 05
093700 03
093700 01
So, when in Trainz passing through station Asote from east, the switches would be as follows:
114199 2
114199 1
For stations with many switches it would be something like this:
093700 02
093700 04
093700 06
093700 08
093700 10
093700 09
093700 07
093700 05
093700 03
093700 01
I usually name my turnouts as close to how most prototype railroads do it. For sidings, crossovers, etc. near a town, I'll start with a direction and then the name of the siding/control point. Ex: NorthSanBernadino, WestBaltimoreXover, EastFortWorthXoverS, EastFortWorthXoverN. For yards and more complex situations, I have a convention which help to differentiate them from other areas starting with the name, then track number. EX: BarstowYd1E, BarstowYd2E. then on the West end - BarstowYd1W, BarstowYd2W. etc. For crossovers I'll designate the crossover direction name - then name which switch.. EX: SandpatchWXoverE, SandpatchWXoverW. For more complex interchanges, I'll use a variety of names and directions to try to properly name an interlocking. EX: NBlackThunderMineWXoverW, NBlackThunderMineWXoverE, NBlackThunderMineEXoverW, NBlackThunderMineEXoverE. Any way you choose to name things, try to come up with a standard convention of naming things so you can remember how they are named, and so your users of the route can understand (hopefully) which junction/switch/turnout is what. I would STRONGLY SUGGEST that you keep the names of your industries and trackmarks different from your junctions so that everyone knows which is a switch and which is an industry or trackmark. EX: Switches into an industry - WestRoscoeGrainSiding, EastRoscoeGrainSidng Industries - RoscoeGrainIn, RoscoeGrainOut etc.
So usually, major interchanges/sidings, I'll start with the direction first then the siding name. For spurs and more complex trackage, I'll use the City then the track number.
Remmber, in Driver when trying to drive to a trackmark or industry, they are listed alphabetically. Therefore, I try to make the trackmarks and industries begin with the town or industry name.
I hope this gives you some ideas you can use. Just find a naming convention that works for you and try to stay with it. It makes things MUCH easier
So usually, major interchanges/sidings, I'll start with the direction first then the siding name. For spurs and more complex trackage, I'll use the City then the track number.
Remmber, in Driver when trying to drive to a trackmark or industry, they are listed alphabetically. Therefore, I try to make the trackmarks and industries begin with the town or industry name.
I hope this gives you some ideas you can use. Just find a naming convention that works for you and try to stay with it. It makes things MUCH easier
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Kudos! Good Un!
2-4-6-8, who do we appreciate! NUMBERZ Rah team. (Just teasing, it's past midnight and I get silly!)
I actually like the odd-even scheme, but think I'll stick with my 5-7 character Alpha identifiers as the prefix. Different strokes for different folks, as we used to say when I was back in college. What I actually do with turnouts is directional from the foot of the Y so that the switch tells me where it goes as I come up to it driving:AND using some CamelCase, and as mentioned for big yards keep to short abbreviations:
This example is from my perversion of the Tidewater Point Railroad (by TPR &of TRS2006/TS09 fame, for which I thank them heartily as they taught me a lot!):
Mr is the Mapleton Recieving yard (adjacent to the mainline) Myd the Main yard adjacent to the Mapleton town, and Mpy tracks in the Mapleton Port across the mainline...
jMry MrE3 | ComE means I'm already on the ComE (Common East, i.e. the ladder) and the switch left-set enters track Mr3E or MrE3 which ever order you prefer the number and E/W suffixes. I've done both, and prefer now to put the N,S,E,W notations last, but each gives a unique name, which is good enough for rules to set up junctions, and is understandable once you figure out the notation or get told about it (as opposed.to a morass of number codes real railroading seems to use.
Assuming a reverse ladder on the other side, the outlet junction would be jMry ComW | Mr3W -- again easy to look for or figure out making switch rules. This notation comes in especially handy in less heavily tracked remote junctions such as a wye in an area I denoted "TC' for the tennis court within the wye perimeter. Here I'd use my handy-dandy 5-7 letter place abbreviations vice the short yard codes. Coming Northeasterly from Leiscastor (Leis) one navigates jTC1 HiBute | Laketon, to High Butte or Laketon spurs. Assuming the right turn the junction ahead is jTC3 Leis | HiBute or to the left, jTC2 Laketon | Leis.
This scheme makes figuring out whether to hit [J] or not at speed a snap, though the long names can be a pain on the minimap. Turning on screen help on in Driver mode though, the decision is obvious entering the area. Assuming one of those three wye leads has a passing siding (This is a mountainous route, most trackage is single with strategically placed double trackage and key trackmarks) I'd label its switches based again on the proximity to the main feature, the TC series, so a passing siding between Leiscastor and the wye would be jTC5N Nb | Leis Sb (keeping southbound traffic right, Nb traffic left) and the exit jTC5S Sb | TCwye.
Similar Trackmarks names follow the double-hyphen scheme I outlined above, Leis--TCwyeS Nb and TCwye--Leis Sb would be in either end of the double-track passing siding well before a signal. If and only if the wye had long legs a freight might fit into would I use more than one TM at either end before the exit signals, and may need none at all. In this case, with four locii, trackmarks TCwye--Laketon and TCwye--HiBute would occur enough before the next junctions away from the wye that a train at speed has a chance to stop at the signal between it and the junction.
Sometimes I try to cheat on giving waypoints and try to use a mid-reference like Leis--Laketon for a Drive Via command, that I'd place midway through the wye. It seems to me Trainz routes fairly well through 5-6 switches then navigation goes south, so to speak. Then again, if a train is traversing a stretch, with double passing and single mainlines, I had to make sure on coming traffic stopped and held at the waypoints of the passing sidings. I keep my AI's busy, busy, busy, and Trainz-wrecks are strictly verbotten.
Have a great day, in the end, we all just need something we can make sense of THAT WORKS! // Frank