Trying to build a tunnel

[handlaidtrack]

I’ve spent about the last 6 hours trying to build a tunnel. I’ve read all the tutorials I can find on the subject, and disassembled several of the supplied routes, but have so far failed to find the answers I’m looking for.

What I need is a single track stone tunnel, suitable for a British layout. The only one I’ve been able to find that looks remotely like what I’m looking for is “UK tunnel 1track stone” by bloodnok. Although it’s no where near the correct profile, I figure it’s an acceptable stand-in in the absence of anything better. The problem is, that it refuses to stay at the right height. As soon as I raise the hill, the portal rides up on top of it. I’ve tried everything I can think of, and am at a total loss. Even correcting the height manually after finishing the hill does not work, because it can only be moved down in multiples of a full meter (even though I specifically asked for imperial measurements, elevations are still in meters), and it never starts a whole number of meters from where I need it. All the tutorials I’ve located use tunnels that behave themselves, but they either don’t look anything like real tunnels, or have brick portals (which are totally unsuitable for my location).

The other thing that I’ve not been able to do is get the landscape around a portal to look acceptable. Most of the supplied routes, even those with otherwise great looking scenery, just don’t have decent tunnel entrances. The exception is “Avery – Drexel”, but those tunnels were all custom built for the route and don’t work anywhere else (they’re US sized concrete portals with overhead wires).

Can anyone please help?

 

[angelah]

Version of Trainz?

I don't know what version of Trainz you are using but none of mine have the problem of vertical lift in 1 metre increments, they all move up or down to wherever I want to put them.
I have used many tunnels, even tried using a circular Swizz type to raise levels in the original Overhills but took it out because it didn't really suit what I wanted, and all the tunnels entrances moved up/down easily using the adjust height tool
When I looked for tunnels I searched the DS, downloaded all I thought might be useful and then checked them in Trainz. Those that weren't to my specs I removed from my drive but even now I have a considerable amount to choose from.
Some of the French assets are okay, I quite like 'different' designs and there are quite a few in the UK.

Angela

 

[BigThing]

If you go to the track menu, then click the advanced tab. You can type in the hight you want in the verticies box then apply it, you can have in in the smallest increments you want.

 

[itareus]

To get fine adjustments of height on various objects hold down one of either the Shift / Ctrl / Alt keys on your keyboard while making the adjustment. (Can't remember which key does what and am not at my Trainz machine at the moment so unable check - just try them and see).

As for tunnels in general, I'm afraid the landscape around the tunnel mouths has been a long standing problem with Trainz.

You could always try Andi Smith's tunnel kit, link here:

http://www.ajsmith.nildram.co.uk/trs/tunnel01.shtml

Cheers

Chris

 

[stagecoach]

Once you have placed the tunnel entrance do not try to raise the ground at the point were the track will connect. Set your height of this point from within the track laying advanced tab. Select height you want and click on the spline point of the tunnel to set height.

 

[amigacooke]

Also, using Andi system, UKBL have produced some portals that might suit.

UKBL tunnels

 

[handlaidtrack]

Thank-you to all those who offered advice.

Typing in the desired height works fine for the tunnel liners because they’re splines, but this option is not available for objects like tunnel portals. I tried the ‘fine adjustment’ with the shift key, but that still doesn’t allow me to get back to zero, because the unwanted lift is never a multiple of the adjustment amount. Thus, it will always result in bumpy track.

Per your previous suggestions, I downloaded a load of French tunnels and the westwood stone tunnel kit. While they do look a whole lot better than the one I was trying to use yesterday, they have an even more severe problem. Once the land has raised them up out of alignment, they cannot even be pushed back down again. Attempting to do so results in the message “object does not allow height change”. In this case, why the &%#$ does it allow the hill to change it’s height in the first place, especially when it’s attached to a track spline that supposedly already has a fixed elevation?

I’ve already checked out the AJS tunnel kit, and am planning to use his Severn tunnel on my main line but I still need single track stone tunnels for the route I’m building. One interesting thing I discovered, is that the whole severn tunnel assembly works fine, but the individual severn tunnel portals still get fowled up by the terrain.

I’m wondering if this is a simple program bug, or possibly something wrong with my system settings.
Is there a switch somewhere to fix object heights (not just track heights)?
Since Trainz has been out for many years now, I cannot imagine how it can still be forcing tunnel portals to sit on top of the ground, instead of allowing the ground to rise up around them. Surely this is something so fundamental that it should have been fixed in the very first rewrite.

 

[amigacooke]

Must admit it's been a while since I did any serious tunneling. Andi has a tutorial on his site that might help.

http://www.ajsmith.nildram.co.uk/trs/tunnel02.shtml

 

[pfx]

I started using Andi's kits months ago and I think they give the best results for starting from scratch.

Here are a few examples.



Using retaining walls lets you get the tunnel mouth set deeply into the land which is how to make them look more realistic. This example is under construction.




Here's a more complete example.




This is the other end of the same tunnel (the catenary hasn't made it all the way yet).




This is a more open version without retaining walls.


It's easier for me to show in pictures than to explain.

 

[lsstaten]

yeah but the problem with those its to low for US stack trains and autoracks. plus not wide enough either the tracks are like bunched together.

 

[pfx]

yeah but the problem with those its to low for US stack trains and autoracks. plus not wide enough either the tracks are like bunched together.

Yes, but if you read handlaidtrack's original post, he is looking for tunnel suitable for a British layout.

 

[handlaidtrack]

I’ve read the ajs tunnel tutorial (three times now), but it does not answer my questions. The problem is being unable to get the tunnel portals to stay put when I raise the hill around them.
In fact, it now seems that the problem is more widespread than just tunnels.
I left the tunnel alone this afternoon and started working on another area of my route. I’m now having the same problem with other objects that I’ve attached to the track.
After just guessing track spacing the first time around, I had started my route again, re-laying about half my mainline using “JK way gauge” track spacers to get my tracks properly spaced. These objects have the same problem. As soon as I start putting in landscape, they get raised or lowered with the scenery and seem to be impossible to put back again.
Unless it is somehow possible to fix these objects so that they don’t get moved by landscape elevation changes, then quite frankly, Trainz is SERIOUSLY deficient!

In case it’s not already obvious, I’m really p****d off with the whole thing this afternoon. To top off my frustration, I started getting errors when trying to save my work, and after sorting that out, I noticed that all the displacements are missing from the topography advanced settings. I’m not sure if the two incidents are related because it’s a week or so since I last experimented with these settings, but my concern is that I might ultimately have to do a re-install and then start my route again, for the third time.
Unless I can get the elevation problems sorted out beforehand, I’m not going to go through all that trouble; it seems far more prudent at this stage to just delete the entire trainz directory and try to forget I ever wasted my money on it.

 

[stagecoach]

There are two types of tunnel entrance, westwood is an object and is not attached to tunnel bore or is part of a tunnel spline. It is an object so this is placed from within the object tab. The other tunnels are all track splines and are found in the track tab and as with all splines the tunnel entrance is raised as a track spline and not an object spline. Anything you place from the object tab will always rise and lower with the ground and in most cases are not height adjustable. I would suggest that when you have used the track spacer, once you have the track spaced that you remove it and join the track together without it. To get track to flow without bumps set the spline point heights by the tool at the bottom of the track advanced tab. Grab the vertex height then paste it back, the spline circle will turn from white to yellow and will remain at that level even if you raise the ground around it.

 

[amigacooke]

Unless I can get the elevation problems sorted out beforehand, I’m not going to go through all that trouble; it seems far more prudent at this stage to just delete the entire trainz directory and try to forget I ever wasted my money on it.

I think it's no use pretending that there is not a learning curve associated with Trainz. It takes time, research and practice to achieve good results. It is frustrating, but it does require comittment.

Maybe most have been where you are at some time. I know I have.

 

[stovepipe]

A few things:

Make sure you have "fixed track vertex height" set to ON in Surveyor options. This prevents you track nodes moving with the land.

Don't use way gauges/spacers in lieu of track nodes. As you have found out they are scenery items and all scenery items move with the land.

This means you have to hand lay your track using the spline circles to get the spacing right.

 

[Vern]

With the "dighole" style tunnels, which I presume is what the OP is trying to use as opposed to the inflexible original spline tunnels, if the portal does get elevated then you can adjust the height of the object by changing the terrain height around it. This is the same as with level crossings, industries etc. which snap to terrain and cannot be adjusted from the object menu you need to set the terrain at the desired height.

However it is a PITA that the portals cannot be locked at a specific height as you are almost bound to want to make some fine adjustments to the terrain around the portals.

Even bigger PITA that I bet even in TS2010, Auran have still not solved how to place the splined tunnels entrances at other than 0, 45, 90, 135, 180, 225 and 315 degrees to the grid!

 

[handlaidtrack]

Well this just gets better and better! This latest batch of replies and suggestions has clarified the situation somewhat.
BTW, I don’t know how to quote from several different replies in the same message, but this would have been the perfect time to do so.

Yes, it’s the “dighole” style of tunnels I’ve been trying to use. I discounted the other type very early on as there isn’t one of them that looks even remotely like a real tunnel. Some of the otherwise good-looking routes supplied are marred by using them.
I have the “fixed track vertex height” switch ON. I found out about that one early. The track spacers and tunnel portals being “scenery objects” is the whole root of the problem. They need to be treated as “track objects”. Surely, anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that anything attached to a track spline should move with the track, not the scenery!

I’m using the track spacers not only to get the track spacing right, but also to overcome another shortcoming of Trainz.
I found out early on that Trainz has no concept of transition curves. If located with just two fixed straight segments at either end, the resulting curve has horrible tight spots at both ends where the transitions should go. Even on broad curves this effect is highlighted by the “external view” camera, which is what I plan on using almost exclusively. As the track spacers fix both a location and a direction, I was using them to force an alignment that approximates a transition curve.
Taking the spacers out afterwards results in an absolutely diabolical misalignment.
Here are two screenshots from the same location, demonstrating the effect of removing the track spacers after first using them to get a decent transition curve.
http://s920.photobucket.com/albums/...shots/?action=view&current=TrackAlignment.jpg
Not shown in the pictures, but just out of view to the left, is a curved viaduct that the realigned track misses altogether! Clearly it is necessary to go round and make substantial adjustments after removing the spacers (i.e. tear the track out and redo it completely). Thus, the track spacers cannot be used at all so I’m back to guestimating the track spacing. I did this the first time round, but wasn’t happy with the results, so I scrapped the route and started again. The yellow circles do not work as a means of spacing the tracks because they are not at track level, so the spacing changes depending on the height of the camera.

So anyway, as I said at the top, the last few replies have bought some measure of clarification. I’m not missing a trick somewhere; the situation really is every bit as bad as it seems. This explains why most of the routes don’t look right. In the light of this information, the truly amazing thing, is that there are some good looking routes supplied with Trainz2010 (not many, but a few). Now, knowing how woefully inadequate the tools are, makes routes like “Avery – Drexel” seem even more awesome. Surely, creating that route would have been almost as difficult as building the real thing!

 

[amigacooke]

The track straightening tool could be the trick you're missing.

 

[stagecoach]

As below. From your shot lay track each side of the spacer making sure you have 4 spline points. Use the straighten track tool on the short section of track then slide the spline points over the ones on the spacer. Fix the vertex height on all 4 points and you can remove the spacer.

 

[seeseeme]

Hi handlaidtrack,

One thing other people have done with the Portal problem you have is the add a "dummy" baseboard. On this dummy board place your Portal at any height you wish and connect it to your tunnels. In the space between the dummy board and your main layout now create a hill or anything, maybe find a backdrop that is suitable. This then hides your Dummy board on which you only have is the Portal from your layout.

I hope this makes some sense and help you out.

Craig