Trees and Grass Vs FPS

Interesting discussion in this thread, with some useful tips for hedge splines- thanks Dave.

Most trees are between six and eight polys and have one or two textures and in my experience if you limit the range you use it seems to be possible to have many hundreds of trees in shot without harming frame rates. To put this in perspective, I have one very small scenery item which CMP reports as having 21932 polys and four 64x64 textures. This one item probably puts as much load on the system as over 2000 trees.

It would be really useful if Auran could place poly count and texture size into the game in some way, perhaps through an extension of the -showkuid trainzoption, so that route creators can make informed choices to optimize performance (think I'll post this idea in suggestions).

When downloading routes using CMP I have started sorting the list of dependencies by size, so that I can spot any oversize objects relative to what they are, such as 'cardboard box', 1.5MB (hypothetical example!) I can therfore block these from downloading if I think they aren't essential. Once the route is downloaded I check it over in surveyor and it's usually fairly easy to spot anything vital that is missing. Another trip to the dls to get those necessary items followed by a 'delete missing assets' can help performance a lot on some routes.

R3
 
escafeld, thanks, I got it and will try it now, cheers for that. :)
Roumor3, very interesting, thats just what I need to know, so if I use the right trees that look good but are low poly, i'll be able to use up to 100-200 per board just as long as I don't use too many varieties, also use height adjust to make different sizes and with hedge and undergrowth splines used in a similar way all with very dark textures underneath.
You guys are all great teachers, cheers. :)
 
Interesting discussion in this thread, with some useful tips for hedge splines- thanks Dave.
:

It would be really useful if Auran could place poly count and texture size into the game in some way, perhaps through an extension of the -showkuid trainzoption, so that route creators can make informed choices to optimize performance (think I'll post this idea in suggestions).
:
R3

What a great idea. Please do post it in the Suggestion Boxcar.

Phil
 
What a great idea. Please do post it in the Suggestion Boxcar.

Phil

Posted- waiting for moderators...

I'm getting around 19 fps in TRS2006, openGL mode, on my laptop in the following shot:
trees.jpg


Laptop specs- Pentium M 750, 1GB ram, ATI mobility X600, 128MB video. 1280x800 screen resolution, driver performance sliders set to 'balanced' (TRS detail and distance sliders maxed). There are hundreds of objects but only five tree types and six ground textures in shot.

R3
 
I don"t have a problem with FPS any more becauae my PC crashed yesterday and all my fields, trees and hills have gobe to the great Kew Gardens in the sky...All I have left is a backup disc I made last September.Lately I had been "on a roll" and doing my best work ever.Ho hum.Anyway, after installing TRS2006 and SP1 I ran Hawes Junction for the firdt time in many moons and I find that I get 55-60 FPS if taking a rear view (behind the loco looking forward) but I look back from the front of the loco it drops to 45. In Garsdale station it drops to about 35.
 
Hi guys, just to let you know that after reading all your advice and taking your tips I have become amazed with myself, I thought I was good before but now, wow, I have managed to create just the effects I was after with very little loss of frames and I owe it all to all you who replied to me, very very much appretiated, thanks again.
P.S. will try and get some screenies in the shot forum. :) :) :) .
 
Nice one..learn from my experience and use "Settings" to "auto save every 30 minutes" and save to a DVD or External Hard Drive as often as you can manage.Otherwise your Trees and Fields will disappear like the morning dew....:o
 
Thats good advice too, must dig out a dvd and save it all.
As for the auto save, it wont work on my route anymore, nor can I save by writing over route or session, I get that "read only" message, but only on my own route, but at least I have a fresh copy of it at the end of each building session.
 
I get the read only thing occasionally too but I ignore it! I"m currently working on updating a Beta route I was sent: its vast and when I try to manually save it insists I save it under a new name.I simply add "V (number) like V10" to it and its a handy reminder of how many alterations I have made.In two weeks, I"m onto V26....:eek:
 
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As for the auto save, it wont work on my route anymore, nor can I save by writing over route or session, I get that "read only" message, but only on my own route, but at least I have a fresh copy of it at the end of each building session.

Have you tried saving it under a different name and see if that will auto save? Not only do I save mine on a regular basis, I regularly do a cdp of them and save them on both hard drives. I also save them to dvd, after all it's hours and hours of work that goes down the pan when you lose it all, as I know to my cost.

Cheers, Dave
 
I get the read only thing occasionally too but I ignore it! I"m currently working on updating a Beta route I was sent: its vast and when I try to manually save it insists I save it under a new name.I simply add "V (number) like V10" to it and its a handy reminder of how many alterations I have made.In two weeks, I"m onto V26....:eek:

I've noticed that having several routes stored in Surveyor, things start to slow down. I don't know why that should be, but layouts once saved elsewhere and then deleted from 'maps' things quicken up a bit.

Dave
 
Yes , when I save a new Version I delete the previous one as it also prevents me clicking on the wrong version.This route is so big it takes a long time to load...:(
 
Yes , when I save a new Version I delete the previous one as it also prevents me clicking on the wrong version.This route is so big it takes a long time to load...:(

If I download new 'stuff' and delete the 'chump' file my layout takes anthing from 10-15 mins to open; is this a record? I've actually made a cup of tea and drunk it before it's opened. :D
 
ive had the read only problem and found that if you hit save as and then save it under the same name it overwrites the route like normal.:)
 
Going back to “Trees and Grass Vs FPS”, I agree with using no more than 5 tree types for two reasons.

One, as Roumour3 says multiple copies of one object has little affect on frame rate and;

Two, there are not that many different varieties of tree in the countryside (unless you are modelling an Arboretum or Botanical Garden). In my area of Gloucestershire, Elm, Ash, Horse Chestnut, Hawthorn and Elder are the most common types on the Vale, substitute Beech for either Elm or Ash for the upland areas. As has been said, setting Surveyor Options to randomly rotate objects helps to increase apparent variety, as does raising or lowering individual trees. You can lower trees so that only the tip is visible to represent shrubs and garden plants.

Regards,

Chris
 
Since this thread I lost the majority of the route I was working on .I"ve now started to rebuild and find that the "Copy And Paste" method produces much better Forests than Tree Splines.I rotate the Paste Selection and when the forest is complete I rotate random trees by hand and vary their heights.
 
Deano05 and lewisner,

This is my large route in progress . . . these will make you cringe with regards to FPS. . . (these are large pics 1360X768)




I am running Trainz @ 1360X768 resolution (HDTV). I have an average newer computer with a crappy video card. Its a Core 2 Duo E6300 1.8Ghz n WinXP, 3GB RAM, nVidia 7300 W/ 512MB RAM.

99% of the trees in ALL the shots are individual "poplar" trees of 3 or 4 variety but numbers in the thousands. My finished portions between 2 finished and farthest apart industry is 55 minute drive time at average of 60MPH. When finished I want it to be a 3 to 4 hour drive time between two farthest points.

ALL my textures are also made up of 3 to 4 variety mixed together then pasted, plus other accent textures, ballast, rocks and dirt amongst the greens.

I personally would rather sacrifice a little FPS to gain realism. A great FPS like 24FPS and up is wonderful but if its happening in "toy land" environment . . . why bother using realistically detained rolling stock that looks "out of place" in "toy land". There is nothing wrong with economy of scenery if you intend it to uploaded your route. Good examples are the built-in routes for TRS2006, Marias Pass and City & Country. They are good routes but just not my cup of tea.

OK . . . FRAME RATES. I am averaging 13 to 15 FPS out in the "country" and 9 to 11 FPS in my main yard, which is 18 tracks and 7000 feet long. ALL TRACKS EVERYWHERE are 2 meter track . . . I HATE SEEING CURVES MADE UP OF LITTLE STRAIGHT SECTIONS. 2 meter tracks are the only thing that makes switches look real. As you can see in the screen shots, the curves are round.

Below 12 FPS is noticeably "jittery". MY WORST, is the area shown with the "UP GAS TURBINE" shot over the bridge. That area drops to 8 to 10 FPS.

IN COMPARISON, the Marias Pass runs at 18 to 20 FPS in the "country", once in a while jumping up to mid to high 20s, and drops to 15 to 18 FPS in the Cut Bank yard.

I'm getting 13 to 15 FPS out in the country with substantially more trees than Marias Pass route . . . not to mention a higher poly 2 meter tracks. GO FIGURE . . . I had expected Marias Pass to be up in the 40s FPS.

I am in the process of UPGRADING my video card. I'm expecting a drastic improvement and up my average to about 20FPS in the "country" and 15FS in my worst area.

The total size of the route does not affect the FPS . . . except it takes forever to load and to switch views to another Driver if you have other trains running.

But there is a WORSE ISSUE THAN FRAME RATES with large routes. TRS2006 has bug in the programming that causes the "Read Only" error !!

I'm quite positive its a "route size related" issue. Most users don't encounter this problem because they usually don't build a route that takes 3 to 4 minutes to load. You won't lose your route but the sessions become detached and you have to retrieve them in CMP. Auto-Save will disengage when you add baseboard or tracks. Thats what it does when I'm working on my route. There are no FIX for this, and Auran doesn't have any plans to fix it.

But OVERALL, if you put enough of low poly objcts . . . FPS will drop. To stretch things . . . think LESS VARIETY before NUMBERS. But if you are willing to live with 20% to 30% less in Frames Per Second . . . you can put in the kind of amount of trees you see in my screen shots.

Remember that the number of objects/textures in the current view is what affects FPS. You can have a million trees on your route but if the "data numbers" are about the same for any "viewing area" in Driver/Surveyor mode, then your FPS should remain similar.

So its a personal choice. You'd be surprised how much detail you can put in before you see a drastic difference once you hit below 20FPS. . . unless you run out of RAM. If you do run out of RAM, FPS will be down to 1 ~ 4.

Just my 2 cents :-)
 
Wow Edion you have certainly put your heart and soul into that and it looks fantastic! I"m none too good at scenery - to me a tree is just a tree.However being UK based my route generally has the following as a MINIMUM very close to the track - Telegraph Pole Spline x 1 , Signal Wire Spline x 1 , Fence Wooden x 2 , Shrubs/vegetation along the entire length either side.I"m lucky to get 10 FPS as , like you, I hate the "toy" look, so when there are houses next to the track they have fully fenced and detailed gardens.The only thing I have changed since this thread started is that I have flattened all my Spline Forests and replaced them by Solid trees.Keep up the good work.
 
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