Trainz - No longer casual user nor community focused?

Personally I like new and exciting graphics. My preference would have been to put TLR at the forefront. However, the discussion seems to be more of - were the graphics done at the expense of improved Railroad functionality. Obviously the graphics improvement has had a negative impact in some cases. Obviously some people would prefer improved railroading. I am one of those people you demean. Regardless of what is said here the die -is-cast and the market will respond.

Perhaps someone in Australia can clean this up.
 
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I for one, like the new HD Terrain graphics. Spending time now converting several of my old routes to HD. Really like the way you can now add ballast underneath track without getting those jagged edges. Also great for adding a little mixed soil underneath fence lines especially in the country to show a slight unkempt look.

Not sure whether I will use TLR much, but time will tell.
 
Recently went over to Trainz+ from TRS19 and have paid two [2] monthly memberships so far as a 'test' to see how I would go. S2.0 is a steep learning curve for me [another of those old farts as referred to]. Interestingly I remember going from TANE to TRS19 and feeling a bit the same. However, it never took too long to learn how 19 improved from TANE.

Its all very subjective as to which version of trainz best suits and I totally agree N3V have to be profitable in order to keep giving its consumers the choices, yes, there are choices. You really do not need to get Trainz+ if you are happy with any other version you are running.

Personally I will attempt to grasp this S2.0 before, or if, I give up on it and revert back to 19.

Right now I am converting the LB&SCR route to PBR etc in Trainz+ and frankly liking what I am seeing. I am no IT expert or programmer but the more I use S2.0 the more I am understanding it.

We would have never built rockets capable of placing sattelites into orbit had we remained happy with a Focker Friendship now would we!

Regards to all,
Val.
 
Right now I am converting the LB&SCR route to PBR etc in Trainz+ and frankly liking what I am seeing. I am no IT expert or programmer but the more I use S2.0 the more I am understanding it.

My experiences as well. The change to PBR ground textures was, to me at least, amazing. Yes PBR has issues - it does not "play well" with standard textures so I converted all textures to PBR. It also works better when the track splines are also using PBR ballast textures so now I only use procedural tracks with PBR textures. Likewise, I initially found S2.0 very intimidating but now I find it has significantly improved my work efficiency and speed.

The point is both involved me "climbing" learning curves, something not always easy for an "Old Fart" but I "gave it a go" and stuck with it. I now feel that I have been rewarded for the attempt. I am not yet at the top of the S20 curve as I am still learning new tricks but the view from there is still far better than it ever was from Classic. I appreciate that a new feature will not suit everyone for a variety of reasons but no-one is being forced to change if they do not want to.

And thank you Val for the feed back.
 
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The idea this thread and many others brings up is a load of dung. The community is wide range of people, not just the old farts with the get off my lawn mentality. Listening to only the old farts who generally don’t want to buy anything new and have a harder time learning isn’t the way for a business to survive. I say that as someone who is part of the over the hill club. 16 bit graphics isn’t going to sell.

There is a large gap between what people think is easy to program and how programming actually is. Improvements take time and money. The resources aren’t there to all the tutorials and documentation. The community demanded the graphics improvements. The community demanded higher resolution terrain. The community demanded the windows 12 graphics compatibility. The community demanded Mac improvements. The community demands 4k resolution and at some point likely 8k. The community demands better AI and they are working on TLR.

Every bit of these improvements requires time and money. There is no studio that is going to throw thousands of programmers at trains games. Every improvement changes file format or something and can always create a problem. They probably have millions of lines of code and much of it is old.

Trainz can import standard graphics file formats and what you can do is vast. How can one possibly make that easier? I keep thinking we could have more utilities if they would work with 3rd party software and released file formats. But they will not do that. The complexity with assets is there because of how the graphics formats are.

I'm sort of in the middle with this issue, I don't automatically decry any improvements to graphics if they are part of a well thought out plan to ensure the game exists into the future. It cant stand still , however, I do think that NV3 aren't the best at communicating with their base and they often do not consider the affect that their changes have on the asset and route creators, of which I am one .

However i do not remember the list being dominated by discussions where many users have demanded high density terrain, i think you are exaggerating the list of " community demands", I'd say a lot more people have demanded that they sort out the DLS and payware packaging and that hasn't happened at all and it shows no sign of being solved. How many new users have we had recently frustrated and confused because they cant work out how to get the game installed and to play with their purchased payware routes ? I can see why NV3 ignore this , new users have no idea what a mess the DLS is and once NV3 has their money, they will have to navigate the DLS/DLC mess like the rest of us, or not, and I suspect quite a few don't persist .

Now I may be wrong ( and i apologize if this is incorrect ) but as far as I know you have never made routes or assets that appear on the DLS, if you had done so, you might think differently about changes that have been made in the past year or so and their affect on assets , many of which need to be repaired in order for them to function. These aren't easy repairs as many involve scripting changes , its complex and beyond my ability to cope with , but its just one area in which NV3 really haven't considered how these items are going to be made usable for their newer versions of the game.

Anyone who hasn't had to try to make routes for the DLS and keep them usable for more then one version of the game really has no idea how hard and frustrating it is to make this happen , my main gripe with NV3 is that they really don't seem all that concerned about that situation.

I don't think they do this deliberately, they have limited resources, but given I make routes that use rock formations almost extensively and thus , would be the perfect person to make use of their new terrain abilities, I won't be using this in the near future, apart from the fact it can only be used by route makers who have a subscription , if a 50 mile route with 10m boards is already 150mb or so, what sort of size is it going to be using the new terrain and how many users are going to be able to take advantage of this new feature?

I don't know what the percentage of users who have 4k or 8k screens to take advantage of these graphic possibilities actually is , I certainly don't have them, and don't intend to do so , because all too many assets would look really ordinary with such high resolution screens . We do not have much vegetation that has been updated to take advantage of these developments and NV3 have no plans to create any.

I think that we are gradually moving towards the demise of freeware routes due to the difficulties that are presented to creators ( which only appear to be multiplying and which often can only be accessed if one has purchased the most expensive sub ) and the lack of support from NV3 . We appear to be in a transition period where many older users are dying, ceasing to participate and younger users have different priorities, it would be interesting to see what the age demographics are for users of particular types of routes, I'm sure for instance mine are used by mostly older users as they are steam and early 20th late 19th century , whilst the desire for the present scene is high in many younger users as that is their own particular railroad experience..

I'm one of those who wish to make ultra realistic looking routes, but I cant support moves that would cost me thousands in upgrades , especially when I know that none of the eye candy ( and I don't include S2 in this ) will make creating assets and routes any simpler or long term once the end product is placed on the DLS.

I was creating a new section of the timber ridge last week and my wife came into the room, " that looks like carpet squares " she said. Guess what she was looking at ? The default grass texture that now graces new boards in 2022, and she was right ,it looked like the green carpet squares we had in our old rumpus room. Some new developments aren't really all that successful unless you know how to apply them correctly and NV3 certainly didn't when they introduced green carpet squares to the game as the default , how does a new user work out how to replace the default and why in merry hell was the grass the default and not the grid ? its just one example of poor decision making , i can think of many, many more that needlessly spoil the game for me a great deal.

Yeah I'm a grumbling old fart, the sad thing is , although in many ways a great program, Trainz does give me a lot to grumble about.
 
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I'm an old fart but I'm not afraid of learning new things. If I was, I wouldn't be here.

I used S20 right in the beginning and it's not terribly difficult to learn. When all is said and done, we're accomplishing exactly what we were doing before except differently. Sure, it takes a bit of thinking at first but once you get the hang of where things are, it goes pretty well.

My gripes are that nothing seems finished with the product. Trainz in general is the most unfinished program I have ever used. Tools work but have incomplete features. The interface still isn't finished in S20. Content Store doesn't have the simple things such as sorting so that we don't have to wade through a list of installed content to find the latest items or updates, the main menu is still the same from TRS19 with the same unfinished things that beta TRS19 had, for example and I'm sure there are others that can be found. The same quirks and bugs we had since the early days still plague the program and when we bring these issues up, we're met with excuses. The excuse is we're a small company with only a few people. So, what! I worked for a Polaroid spin-off which eventually downsized to 6 people. I worked in a multi-media training development company with 2 developers, myself included and the owner and a family business with my parents and my brother. All of these companies were successful in their time. I hate to say the bad parts out loud, but this boils down to management. A strong leader with a vision and a bit of an iron fist to keep the ship on course is par for the course. Without the iron fist, everything starts to go sideways as people go about doing their own thing. We can't blame the workers because they do the best they can. The management needs to delegate the tasks and see that they are finished.

People run around spinning their wheels trying to do too much at once rather than completing a single task. I understand the development lifecycle and that products go from development to support with that grey area in the middle somewhere where things feed off of each other, but here we face product dump, move on to the next project with barely a glance back at what's working and what isn't. Relying on the public to do beta testing is not 100% reliable. Many people "beta test". Note the quotes. Testing needs to be done methodically rather than letting a bunch of people have a go at the product. That's fine at the end towards release but in the beginning there needs to be methodical testing done. The last few beta tests have been haphazard dumps of data thrown into the pot for the users to test.

And finally, what is the end goal here?

What exactly is N3V trying to accomplish?

What market are they trying to catch?

Are they trying to make a single shoe to fit all, or may be three or four different but similar products with different levels of complexity? They've kind a sort of done that with the various versions/flavors of TRS22.

I think I know the answer and that is N3V is trying to please everyone instead of making a solid product. In the end, we'll end up with a mediocre product rather than one that stands out above the rest.

Like many people here, I find the program not as fun as it used to be. I recently converted and opened up my very first Trainz route I found on a DVD backup. After laughing at my track laying and super-high hills, I realized that back in January 2004, I had the gist of a route there that needed some refining. The idea was carried over to my large route which I have today, and it was there in the rough. I remember the excitement and fun I had when I drove my first train out of the yard I built. I was amazed at how the signals changed automatically and the AI driver followed them. This was TRS2004 SP1. There was still no way to save a driver's schedule and stations weren't interactive yet, but it was fun to use. It was fun to use. It was simple. I'm sure rosy glasses have come into play here, but the program was just fun and not overly complicated.

Fastforward nearly 20 years later... Trying to setup EITs shouldn't be as complicated as it is. The portal interface was never changed, and now we can't have the driver schedule panel open and select the train on the route as we could in the past. This makes building complex schedules difficult because there's a lot of installed consists on a route. This same goes for track marks. A simple route with one or two track marks is easy to type in the name but when the list goes on through every letter combination in the alphabet and then some, it's not so easy. I brought this up during a beta test and the topic was duly ignored just like many things that need fixing just like the mini map that doesn't follow the train any longer in driver.

Anyway, enough said.
 
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When I developed severe type 1 Narcolepsy and could no longer safely work at any of my hobbies or even carry out household tasks that most folk take for granted. It was TS2009 World Builder Edition that helped to pull me out of a slide down into the depths of depression. I still have a couple of my old routes I built back then and while I can look at them now and shake my head over my tracklaying and lack of ability at landscape shaping they served me well at the time with giving me somewhere to be creative and make myself a world where I didn't have to worry about being unwell. If my brain cut out and I fell asleep Trainz would sit and wait for me to wake up again. No paint to spill, no sharp modelling tools for me to accidentally cut myself with, no expensive models to slip out of my fingers and hit the floor.

Just lately I've found myself wondering how I would have got on if it had been TRS22 that I'd purchased after developing narcolepsy. I found TS2009 WBE reasonably easy to figure out and it wasn't long before I had something up and running, but if I'd gone cold with a Gold +Plus subscription I don't think I would have had anything like the same experience. Even if I'd only stuck to running DLC routes how many of those are completely problem free these days and have sessions that can be run right through to the end without glitching out.

Narcolepsy has damaged my brain just enough that I find it difficult to learn new things. I can do it, but it takes a lot of concentration. My eyesight has also been affected as well so walls of menus like the latest Surveyor 2.0 has are a real barrier for me. It's just as well that classic surveyor was still there in TRS22 or I would be really stuck. Just recently I made the decision to cancel my +Plus subscription which caused all kind of fun with the TRS22 install on my computer ceasing to function and +Plus and TRS22 disappearing from my avatar track despite me actually owning a paid for copy of TRS22. I have since got things working again thanks to having kept my original retail off-line installer, but I seriously won't be taking up a subscription again after fixing that mess.

I grew up with the writings of John Ahern of Madder Valley fame and old back copies of Railway Modeller and Model Railway News from the 1950s and 1960s, - so my approach to building up railways in Trainz is not about ultra realism, but more about creating the right atmosphere. My two computers definitely aren't Windows 11 capable and I can't really afford to replace them. At present they do a reasonable job of running my own routes at sensibly useful settings, but the latest high resolution landscape would definitely be out. As for the carpet squares covered baseboards and water everywhere -5.0 metres underground I have to really wonder what N3V were thinking.

I have TMR format layouts as well as UK engines and rolling stock models on the DLS so I know my way around working with the creative side of Trainz, but these days the thought of the next 'update' for TRS22 breaking my hard work makes my blood run cold. Having already gone through that with TS2019/TRS19 with Trainz becoming a software repair simulator with every 'update' patch that was released I have no desire to repeat the experience. For me Trainz is still the only game in town. I own the Dovetail Games simulator on Steam, but I don't like it much; - I own Diesel Railcar Simulator as well on Steam which is very much like the 32 bit era of Trainz, but it's never going to give me the push to tempt me away from Trainz.

I'm an OAP and an old grumbling one at that, - so what do N3V care since I'll be dead soon and out of their way. However I can see I that I'm not the only one who is worried by N3V rushing off into new projects and never quite managing to fix the issues and problems with their previous projects. Not really the best business model to my mind.
 
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I totally agree with everything in this thread.
I have had every version of Trainz and I also have a Gold Membership (which will be my last)
But now I've given up.
There are so many problems these days it isn't worth wasting my time on anymore.
Why can't NV3 just bring out a original version of Trainz 19 that worked without too many problems. Most scripts even worked.
Now with all these updates nothing works anymore.
Instead of developing 22 any more give us a decent version that we can enjoy, by all means keep developing 22 but give us something that us older users can enjoy again without being a computer Nerd.

Macka
 
Hate to be the bringer of good news but my experience with TRS22+ has been mostly positive. The new S2.0 makes it easier to edit the route I'm working on and swapping one, a few or many objects is only a few clicks away now that multiple selections are possible. The current route was generated by TransDEM which tends to place too many spline joints for my taste. S2.0 makes merging the extra joints an easy task. When testing a new section of the modified track, being able to edit on the fly makes quick work of anomalies that only appear to show once I'm driving. :cool: I must be luckier than others because none of the objects I have picked so far have shown any reluctance to work as expected.

Meanwhile, as has been said by others, if you don't want to use the latest version as it is being developed, stay with one of the older versions. They all continue to work just fine. I still have the first version of Trainz I bought back on 2002, before UTC and the later editions, installed and occasionally give it a whirl for a moment of nostalgia. Naturally it couldn't do most of the things we now take for granted but then neither could most of the other applications from that time.:eek:
 
Since the beginning of this year, I decided to get the Gold membership. I must say that I'm really enjoying S2.0 with HD terrain. It's a learning curve for me, but I enjoy the new features. I must admit that I'd like to see N3V focusing some more on the railroading side (i.e. update sound system, behavior of trains, etc..), but I know that N3V is a small company and they have to make choices. Some will not agree with them and some do. But they're on the good way I think.
 
Hate to be the bringer of good news but my experience with TRS22+ has been mostly positive. The new S2.0 makes it easier to edit the route I'm working on and swapping one, a few or many objects is only a few clicks away now that multiple selections are possible. The current route was generated by TransDEM which tends to place too many spline joints for my taste. S2.0 makes merging the extra joints an easy task. When testing a new section of the modified track, being able to edit on the fly makes quick work of anomalies that only appear to show once I'm driving. :cool: I must be luckier than others because none of the objects I have picked so far have shown any reluctance to work as expected.

Meanwhile, as has been said by others, if you don't want to use the latest version as it is being developed, stay with one of the older versions. They all continue to work just fine. I still have the first version of Trainz I bought back on 2002, before UTC and the later editions, installed and occasionally give it a whirl for a moment of nostalgia. Naturally it couldn't do most of the things we now take for granted but then neither could most of the other applications from that time.:eek:

Yeah, They work fine, except that 2019 constantly doesn't save work, placed a consist in game this week, saved it twice to be careful and when I opened it , the consist had disappeared! This is a regular occurrence, and I can also assure you that certain industries will not perform as intended , due to scripting issues.
 
@K3JohnHO - I agree with what you have said.

The HD patch has caused a lot of assets/KUIDs to either be corrupted or they have become out of date and obsolete.

It has caused personally created routes & sessions to become unusable due their size after conversion. As mentioned in the previous threads, there is little documentation on this release and how to use the new features (and with existing content).

It is a mess, and it's a shame it has got to this.

Tim
 
The HD patch has caused a lot of assets/KUIDs to either be corrupted or they have become out of date and obsolete.


I obviously cannot speak for the assets and configurations that you have set on your system but I have experienced none of those issues. A few routes are reporting "missing dependencies" but listing all dependencies (recursively) reveals nothing missing and they seem to run just fine. A few had assets that were listed as "Available for download" and that fixed the issue.

It has caused personally created routes & sessions to become unusable due their size after conversion.


I believe that the figure is 1600 (or thereabouts) more data points in each 10m square when using HD resolution. My experiments with doing the HD upgrade resulted in file sizes (in CM) of around 5 times larger. One poster here reported that some of his larger routs, when upgraded, were beyond the size limit for saving as .cdp files. Higher compression of .cdp files and other "tricks" were introduced recently but clearly not enough to compensate.

Its a "no-brainer". Until the size limit for .cdp file is increased (if that is possible) then I will only be using HD Terrain on smaller routes where it probably would be better suited - who wants to add that much detail on a larger route, who would have the time?

As mentioned in the previous threads, there is little documentation on this release and how to use the new features (and with existing content).


Yes, the official documentation is sparse and seems to be limited to the initial build release thread posts. But, as I and others have commented, creating "adequate" user documentation is a slow and difficult process. In the meantime the Trainz Wiki pages can often be a better source of "user readable" information. There is an old adage in the software development world that you never let the programmers write the user documentation - no offense intended to the hardworking programmers at N3V.

It is a mess, and it's a shame it has got to this.


That is a frequent response in these forums after every new version or after an update. Users (us) frequently demand new features to be delivered "yesterday" and when they arrive "today" instead the posts often change to "released too soon". You can't win.

My thoughts and opinions.
 
@dangavel You are missing the point. Making assets is never going to be easy and they are listening to the community. The things that can be done, are too vast to document and do tutorials by them. People are liking the changes and find the changes better. The community is a large audience of different likes, views, and skills. S1.0 is still around and so is 5/10m grids. The older programs still works. I can do casual railroading. Some of the asset problems are bugs that should be reported, some are tighter controls, and some are due to needing new features/etc. have I uploaded anything? No, I’ve been trying to decode the file formats and do normal life stuff.
 
@dangavel You are missing the point. Making assets is never going to be easy and they are listening to the community. The things that can be done, are too vast to document and do tutorials by them. People are liking the changes and find the changes better. The community is a large audience of different likes, views, and skills. S1.0 is still around and so is 5/10m grids. The older programs still works. I can do casual railroading. Some of the asset problems are bugs that should be reported, some are tighter controls, and some are due to needing new features/etc. have I uploaded anything? No, I’ve been trying to decode the file formats and do normal life stuff.

I'm amazed that you have info on how well the majority of trainz users are liking the changes to the game, please share your data with us, so we can see just how many people are really happy with 2022 over other versions.

I am not really complaining about what the program does, its the emphasis on looks with new graphics when there are so many other areas where the program is lacking and there appears to be a definite lack of forethought as to how new features affect assets within routes and the ability of people to make NEW routes. Just read some of the hassles prominent creators have had using industries because of scripting issues. No one seems to make interactive industries any more , we don't seem to have anyone with the scripting skills, so in future who is going to create new industries in really high quality to suit the graphics you are so pleased with ? NV3 is leaving it up to us and I don't see some areas being catered for by the fan base , so we will have a program with amazing graphics in some areas and glaringly inferior graphics in others , were going backwards as well as forwards, cant you see that as a potential issue ? .

It is no reflection on you that you haven't made content, but it does mean you have no experience of what i am talking about. You appear to be missing my point, unless you have direct experience of trying to maintain routes and assets on the DLS that are up to date for current versions of the game you really have NO IDEA of the hassles ,because with every new feature something else ( and often many somethings ) is affected. As for reporting faulty assets to nv3, forget it in the vast majority of cases, have you ANY idea of how many items the content repair group have to fix ? , its in the many , many thousands and they get very little help from NV3 to sort out complex problems that they work on to help the rest of us with virtually no recognition.

They are part of the community, but there are hardly any of them and they are quite honestly, being exploited as an inexpensive way for NV3 to sort out old assets, I joined but my skills are insufficient to do most of the repairs, As I feared i just wasn't skilled enough. If we are a community, we should try and consider how well we are dealing with the app in total and just how much we are thinking about all users, not just those who want particular features , we spend much time on this new feature , but then ignore other serious problems that really annoy a lot of users, what I'm asking for it that they at least should have some long term plans to replace the most important stuff that no longer works partly so that much hard work isn't lost but more importantly so that key areas of the game aren't neglected at the expense of others.
 
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When I was a young programmer I was told users like stability, programmers like features.

I think users still like stability and that's not what I'm seeing.

Currently I've updated around two hundred assets to address N3V's current requirements. I have another few hundred to do. Whilst doing that I noticed that many of my assets on the DLS have had their textures changed to texture.txt format, which means these assets that were set to 3.5 will no longer run in either TS12 or even in TANE without the use of PEV's tools to break apart the texture file.

Layouts take years to build, and that means the end users prefer a stable environment. I don't think it exists in Trainz at the moment. TANE isn't bad but then N3V comes along and breaks assets with the texture file improvements.

Cheerio John
 
I'm amazed that you have info on how well the majority of trainz users are liking the changes to the game, please share your data with us, so we can see just how many people are really happy with 2022 over other versions.

Any web marketer will tell you that the people who are most likely to post their opinions about a product are those who have complaints, legitimate or otherwise. Customers who are happy with a product or who simply just "get on with using it" will rarely post. How often do you respond to those endless emails from online suppliers asking you to give a star rating for their product/service? I rarely do unless it is to point out (politely) a problem. Mostly I just delete the email and get on with using the product/service.

Not counting this one there are 37 posts in this thread with 839 views (so far). Roughly 6 or so different individuals have made a complaint - with varying levels of "annoyance". How many have viewed this thread and decided - not interested in this?

I'm not belittling those who have a complaint to make but you did ask for an analysis of the numbers of those who are "happy".
 
I almost posted yesterday a couple of times, then didn't. Graphically, I have seen some photo-quality screenshots from T:ANE and TRS19. Some post-processing maybe, but it has made me wonder what kind of settings they use. I have never been able to get it to look like that. It seems to be arcane and occult knowledge, but it just makes me wonder why N3V doesn't set it that way by default! N3V also seems to have a bit of "Microsoft" attitude, in that they change things without notice and often change things users liked for the worse. I have yet to buy into 22, and I may never. If I do, it will be for routes and assets users are creating that I feel I want, not for the product itself. They haven't sold me on it yet and seem slow to fix problems. In fact, it seems to create more issues than it solves. And, as with all versions, support appears to be mostly by community, with responses slow or nonexistent from N3V. I am going to stop here, because as I did yesterday, I am otherwise going to start rambling.
 
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