Trainz and DRM

[AntonyVW]

Problem is - as I see it - not everyone agrees with DRM. I have no problem with it preventing software piracy but I do object to other aspects of DRM. I prefer password/serial numbers. But then I have to consider things like my 6 year old grandson, who a few days ago showed me how easy it was for him to bypass a 4 digit security pin which he had never seen before. Nothing remarkable in that but he then went on to input a 10 alphanumeric password without any concept of what it was but he had memorized such said password after having seen me input it only once. It scared the hell out of me that he could do it particularly as he cannot as yet read properly. All he had done was remember the sequence of buttons I had pressed. I wonder how many adults could do that with a password that contained numbers and upper and lowercase letters.
But putting that aside - (I consider my grandson gifted in that respect), I still prefer passwords/serial numbers etc. I want to feel like it belongs to me. I just dont feel like that with DRM.

 

[shaneturner12]

I realize you dislike what is being said and are highly offended that some people dare to level criticism at N3V, but I suggest you (and perhaps paulhobbs and Amigacooke) re-read the original post: This thread was started becuase TONY HILLIAM REQUESTED THESE CONCERNS BE OUTLINED IN ANOTHER THREAD, in the Tane thread, post #92.

I realise that, but I don't think he meant like you've done (especially with the edits you've made to the original post).

Shane

 

[RRSignal]

I realise that, but I don't think he meant like you've done (especially with the edits you've made to the original post).

Shane

*sigh* Shane, while I'd love to pick apart that last statement about DRM and the ease-of-use of the DLC system, to say nothing about your concerns about my original post and my apparently offensive "edit" that clarified what the acronym DRM means, but I've already done that previously and I realize you and Amigacooke have this burning urge to have the last word in just about every conversation. So, there you have it: Both of you have had the last word, unopposed and unargued.

Anybody else have any commentary? Tony, I'm looking in your direction!

 

[shaneturner12]

I'm interested to see what Tony has to say as well, especially as it's caused so much aggro.

Shane

P.S. I'm not normally argumentative unless provoked by a topic which I feel strongly about.

 

[cascaderailroad]

I think I feel the only official statement we will hear is:

1) DRM is here to stay ... a "Big TB" for you (too baaad) !
2) If you don't like DRM ... we will find plenty of "other buyers" who will buy the DRM product
3) We hear what you are saying about DRM ... but that changes nothing in our decision
4) Thread locked

 

[norfolksouthern37]

hard to believe but I agree with cascade. only a few have even mentioned anything resembling a stance against DRM with any valid concern over it. VALID being the important word there (one can be a conspiracy nut all they like, it rarely gets others to see things their way - no I am not directing this at anyone in particular). I am personally neutral in it - one way or the other doesn't bother me that much. I don't feel like it is a play for power or control of lives. It generally fits in with the way software is used anyway. If i buy a DRM protected DLC from them and it downloads in my game I am fine with that. If it needs to check in during an update or something to verify that my user has purchased it that makes sense to me too. I also feel that is Trainz/N3V is gone at some point I will also have moved on to something better and have lost the use for this precious bit of data anyway. If others disagree that is perfectly fine, but I doubt that it will be in overwhelming sales reducing numbers that will bring the company to it's knees. there just is no evidence of this regardless of how many times it gets posted about. I don't have the figures to say how much is effected as some like to pretend they know, but just look at the evidence in this thread, you can see that not even a decent amount of forum users have even bothered to comment on the subject.

I guess i just don't understand beating this dead subject. The more I read it, the more I cringe because the more nonsensical it becomes.

 

[pware]

The more I read it, the more I cringe because the more nonsensical it becomes.

I'm in total agreement with you - I would even add hysterical to nonsensical. Some people obviously do not like the idea of DRM and that is their right but others will like it - some content creators for example. I have no doubt that some (a few???) users may stay away from Trainz because of the implementation of DRM but others have probably already decided never to put their content onto the DLS because their intellectual property can be so easily ripped off without the implementation of a DRM system. Its the open source vs copyright argument.

Personally I would like to think that my assets on the DLS are protected in some way even though I freely donated them to the community - not that I consider them to be that good but they are my work and represent many months of effort. Freeware does not mean "ripoff-ware".

My (free) 2 cents worth.

Peter Ware

 

[RRSignal]

I'm in total agreement with you - I would even add hysterical to nonsensical. Some people obviously do not like the idea of DRM and that is their right but others will like it - some content creators for example. I have no doubt that some (a few???) users may stay away from Trainz because of the implementation of DRM but others have probably already decided never to put their content onto the DLS because their intellectual property can be so easily ripped off without the implementation of a DRM system. Its the open source vs copyright argument.

Personally I would like to think that my assets on the DLS are protected in some way even though I freely donated them to the community - not that I consider them to be that good but they are my work and represent many months of effort. Freeware does not mean "ripoff-ware".

How will DRM protect assets on the DLS from being ripped off?

I don't even think N3V or the nuttiest pro-DRM fanboy has argued that one.

 

[shaneturner12]

It doesn't, but that's the risk one takes at the moment (and an inherent thing with free items). If a creator finds that their content has been illegally cloned and uploaded to the DLS, they can contact N3V via the Helpdesk requesting it's removal.

Shane

 

[RRSignal]

Ok, but it seems to confirm that pro/neutral DRM stance, at least for some, is based on false information.

As for preventing users from cloning and uploading assets, I can think of a few pro-active measures that not only don't involve DRM, but can even eliminate the problem before even being published onto the DLS database, e.g. comparing MD5 or SHA fingerprints of known meshes and textures by the upload bot.

 

[shaneturner12]

That has been suggested before, but hasn't yet been acted upon. The main problem though with your example method may be that it would take a while in order to scan all the files (within the assets) on the Download Station. There's also the risk that if the creator updates a texture and uploads a new version or even reuploads the current version, that the upload bot may reject it thinking that it's an illegal clone.

Shane

 

[pware]

As for preventing users from cloning and uploading assets, I can think of a few pro-active measures that not only don't involve DRM, but can even eliminate the problem before even being published onto the DLS database, e.g. comparing MD5 or SHA fingerprints of known meshes and textures by the upload bot.

You may well be right - I do not yet know enough about how DRM has been implemented in TS12 SP1 - all I seem to have read so far is speculation. If DRM stays for DLC only and does not spread to the distribution of Trainz itself in some future release in a way that will cost me more than I am prepared to pay, then I will probably stay in the "pro/neutral" DRM camp. Even if it costs me a few dollars a month for which I will get free future upgrades then I could accept that but I have seen no evidence that N3V will move in this direction. If that changes then my views may also change.

While I understand the idea behind MD5 and SHA digital fingerprints, implementation, for me at least, may be another matter.

 

[shaneturner12]

At the moment, the DRM only affects DLC content (this has been said at least once by N3V staff). All I can suggest is to wait for the 13th to see what the Kickstarter pages say.

Shane

 

[KingConrail76]

It WILL happen if changes are made to the system though. I have had this happen before. It is a valid point though, you only accept this DRM because you think Microsoft will always be around?

In the case of Microsoft, I "accept it" because there are only three real options; Windows, Macintosh, and Linux.
-Microsoft Windows is the lesser of the three evils, with the highest reward to risk factor.

I have TWO other choices of "Train Simulator" that neither require any type of DRM what-so-ever. Granted, MSTS is dated, it is still very functional, and the progress being made on the open source Open Rails platform is impressive.

 

[KingConrail76]

It can happen, and Shane is correct. The check happens at every boot up. Windows phones home and reports that it is a valid install when it is connected to the net. Check your Event log.

This is in the Applications log and is reported in the Security-SPP:

For the OS:
The Software Protection service has completed licensing status check.
Application Id=0ff1ce15-a989-479d-af46-f275c6370663
Licensing Status=
1: 41499869-4103-4d3b-9da6-d07df41b6e39, 1, 1 [(0 [0x00000000, 1, 0], [(?)( 1 0x00000000)(?)( 2 0x00000000 3 0 msft:rm/algorithm/hwid/4.0 0x00000000 0)(?)(?)(?)(?)])(1 )(2 )]

For MS Office 2013:
The Software Protection service has completed licensing status check.
Application Id=0ff1ce15-a989-479d-af46-f275c6370663
Licensing Status=
1: 064383fa-1538-491c-859b-0ecab169a0ab, 1, 0 [(0 [0xC004F014, 0, 0], [(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)])(1 )(2 )]
2: 090506fc-50f8-4c00-b8c7-91982a2a7c99, 1, 0 [(0 [0xC004F014, 0, 0], [(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)])(1 )(2 )]
3: 0bc1dae4-6158-4a1c-a893-807665b934b2, 1, 0 [(0 [0xC004F014, 0, 0], [(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)])(1 )(2 )]

Etc... There are about 30 of them.

(These aren't license keys - they are GUIDs for the applications).

I had something go wrong on my Alienware which made Windows invalid. I had to reauthorize the OS otherwise I'd be locked out. This was an issue for over a year that I ended up doing a reinstall to get rid of. No matter what I tried, using various techniques from Microsoft and other tech sites, did not resolve the problem.

John

You are talking about a machine that is connected to the internet, and has "automatic updates" enabled. Microsoft DOES NOT implement any system within windows that will render it's Windows operating system non-functional if it does not Phone-Home, so long as it is not connected to the internet, and have automatic updates enabled.

It has already been mentioned, what is phoning home is the WGA (Windows Genuine Advantage), while "checking for updates", not "Windows" itself. If you disable WGA/Automatic Updates, or just do not connect to the internet, the machine will NEVER give you an error or message that it MUST re-validate Windows for it to continue working.

There are hundreds upon thousands of Windows PCs around the world, that have been, and will continue to, function 100% normal, with ZERO internet phone-home re-validation needed.

As for your last sentence, about your alienware machine...I could have fixed that for you in 15 seconds.
--There was an update file, that was intended to "disable" pirated copies of several MS titles...it was too agressive, and "Invalidated" legitamate copies of Windows and Office ( I had it happen myself, on my internet machine). Uninstalling that update solves the problem.

 

[KingConrail76]

No, but I own my own business, so I do have to know a bit about business and to make educated guesses about trends, finances, etc. But, hey the world needs mindless sheep, too.

Heh.. Shee-ple are my best customers...

 

[KingConrail76]

And what right do you have to effectively demand it's removal? Perhaps there may be a good reason why the DRM was added, perhaps it may be due to the fact that the DLC packs no longer require serial numbers and that the DRM is what manages that system.

I would suggest that you talk to N3V directly about this, as you may be causing yourself and those who support you more problems with this thread than it's worth.

Shane

Shane, I was ASKED by Tony Hilliam to start this thread, as he did not want to discuss DRM in the TANE thread, for obvious reasons, even though the two are DIRECTLY related, for the purpose of deciding whether or not to support the Kickstarter project with my funds.

RRSignal was also interested in the effects/affects DRM will have on future Trainz versions, and was nice enough to form a very detailed and concise original argument.

This thread exists at the request of N3V, and I think it is about time they "show their cards" so to speak.

None of us want to have this long drawn out debate over the merits of DRM, all we want is answers...DIRECT ANSWERS from N3V, as to their position on, and their intentions for, the future implementation of DRM in Trainz products, so that WE can make a choice as to whether or not WE are going to CONTINUE to support the Trainz franchise with FUTURE purchases.

If YOU Shane Turner have no issue with DRM, and are willing to accept it at any cost to you personally, or to the community at large, that is your choice, and you're free to do it. I would respectfully ask though, that you pack up your kit and move along, because it seems you have nothing to add to the conversation, other than praise and unsupported assumptions as to why or what N3V are doing.

What RIGHT do I have to DEMAND N3V remove DRM?...the same RIGHT you have to come in to this thread and argue that "our" argument is pointless.
-Just because I have a RIGHT to DEMAND something, does not mean N3V will listen, now does it?
--Did your parents just GIVE you EVERYTHING you ever asked for/demanded as a small child?...but you had the right to ask, didn't you?

 

[gremlin1812]

G'day All, I am not into the technical side of things so will not go there. I initially got trainz because it had features MSTS did not have (still use MSTS though) and stayed well away from railworks because of "steam". I personally am very weary of this DRM business and have ceased to purchase any more DLC content because of it. I intend to sit on the fence and see what transpires but as I said I am very wary of this and do not want to put money into something that takes away my control of it or could cease functioning if N3V go belly up or I don't have an internet connection. I do have all of the pre-DRM DLC.
Regards
Barrie

 

[meatloaf747]

G'day All, I personally am very weary of this DRM business and have ceased to purchase any more DLC content because of it. I intend to sit on the fence and see what transpires but as I said I am very wary of this and do not want to put money into something that takes away my control of it or could cease functioning if N3V go belly up or I don't have an internet connection. I do have all of the pre-DRM DLC Regards Barrie

That's about where I sit to Barrie.

I'm not a fan-boy of DRM also. My TS2012 SP1 HF3 still tries to download the 2x1gig M2 files. (yeah, I know I can disable it) but rather than worry about it, I've just given up and gone back to TS2010. (even when I do allow those two large M2 files to install, the route shows up, but not the 29 sessions)...

NV3 knew about the M2 DRM download problem for five to eight weeks before trying to fix the problem.

Hopefully I will be able to buy the next version of Trainz in "Boxed DVD format" that I can re-install whenever I want. I have no problem with their software "phoning home" to make sure I have a legal serial number. I also hope that I can purchase 3rd party payware routes (& content) in "DVD format" and install them directly into the latest version of Trainz. (Tony, it's the dream I keep having)...

I don't even mind paying extra for a "boxed version" of the sim, rather than a "direct download". Same applies to "boxed" versions of 3rd party payware routes and content.

Love 99% of the DLC content and have most of what's on offer. I have major reservations as to whether I'll personally purchase any more DLC, if the only way I can get it is through DRM. Same with the sim itself, (if it's only available via direct download)...

I do support NV3 in trying to get some funds together to upgrade the present game engine, and it will be great if we can get some addition eye candy in the next version of Trainz as well.

I for one was/am very happy with the ability to add .ja files directly into TS09/10 & pre SP1 TS2012. I found that to work really well for me, and NV3 should have been happy with the fact that I had to enter my legally valid serial numbers for those .ja file ad-dons to work.

I guess I personally can only put the DRM changes down to NV3 wanting, expecting and getting far more control...

Maybe NV3 can come up with some sort of a COMPRISE that will keep both the pro and anti DRM camps happy!!! Here's hoping...

And as for "STEAM", steam off!!! Been there, done that, a few years ago & never again...

Cheers, Mac...

 

[JCitron]

You are talking about a machine that is connected to the internet, and has "automatic updates" enabled. Microsoft DOES NOT implement any system within windows that will render it's Windows operating system non-functional if it does not Phone-Home, so long as it is not connected to the internet, and have automatic updates enabled.

It has already been mentioned, what is phoning home is the WGA (Windows Genuine Advantage), while "checking for updates", not "Windows" itself. If you disable WGA/Automatic Updates, or just do not connect to the internet, the machine will NEVER give you an error or message that it MUST re-validate Windows for it to continue working.

There are hundreds upon thousands of Windows PCs around the world, that have been, and will continue to, function 100% normal, with ZERO internet phone-home re-validation needed.

As for your last sentence, about your alienware machine...I could have fixed that for you in 15 seconds.
--There was an update file, that was intended to "disable" pirated copies of several MS titles...it was too agressive, and "Invalidated" legitamate copies of Windows and Office ( I had it happen myself, on my internet machine). Uninstalling that update solves the problem.

Every time a machine is started up, it checks for validation whether it is to Microsoft or to a company's licensing server. While at my last company, one of the licensing servers went down and there were 12,000 happy users who could not log in one morning until the server was restored. These machines did not phone home to mother Microsoft, instead they went to Austin where the datacenter was located. In my case, I am also running MS Office and that too checks for valid licensing. I thought I could stop the software verification service once everything was up and running. NOPE. This would not allow Office to run, and Windows brought up a note that said this copy of Windows is not genuine, or something like that in the lower right hand corner.

Yes, they will continue to work offline until something breaks which happened to me. I ended up having to restore the OS on my Alienware laptop because it could not tell if the version was genuine. Eventually it got down to where Windows was said to be invalid and had expired. I then had to copy off the data and reinstall - no choice in it as the machine would have locked me out until I purchased my already valid license. This was a machine I NEVER put online except to authorize and register the day I purchased it. I used the machine to record my own music and to use Trainz. It never had anything installed except for TS2010 and TS12, and the software used to record. It never had a virus, nor did I do any kind of software upgrades. Then one day something crashed and that was it. Period.

John