Train Simulator 2013 - Railsim.

[Robert2d6]

That was a running argument with the Railism/Railworks developers and fanboys for several years, if you start with realistic physics you can dumb them down for casual players, but start with dumb and there's no way to smarten it up. They didn't wanna hear it, have a run and take some screenshots. FYI I was a licensed pilot back in the 70s/80s, and got some throttle time in a GP7 back in the late 60s, so I know what trains, planes, and helicopters are supposed to feel like.

I got my Pilots license in 78, and have over 700 hours in single engine, multi engine, and helicopters as well as sim time in Level D full motion Airline Sims 767-400ER, and Harrier Sims, and Cobra Heli Sims used in the military. I also think I know just a bit about the physics of moving objects and how they should behave.

 

[kd7eirjim]

Gentlemen - we have asked for the citation. Either it will be forthcoming or it will never materialize. As for physics, while my occupation is in the IT industry, I have dual degrees in mechanical and electrical engineering, with a minor in physics. This means that I know how mechanical and electrical systems work together, which is the very essence of locomotive work, and the physics necessary to make all of that happen. To pose the question "Have you driven a real train" is pure nonsense. Virtually all of the best aircraft, trains, spacecraft, supertankers, deep sea research vessels, etc were designed by people that never operated them.

 

[sniper297]

First time my uncle let me run that geep I was 16, and didn't need to be told it was gonna handle differently when 5 cars were coupled on and would take more distance to stop, it was instinctive just from looking at the freight cars that they were heavy. I knew one kid who broke both legs and one arm jumping off a roof with homemade wings - we were about 8 years old but we all tried to talk him out of it, or at least try a trial run off something lower. Just looking at his weight and the surface area of the boards he strapped to his arms it was obvious to me that it wasn't gonna work. I really think you shouldn't need experience in real trains to know the physics in RW or DCC mode aren't right.

 

[Robert2d6]

First time my uncle let me run that geep I was 16, and didn't need to be told it was gonna handle differently when 5 cars were coupled on and would take more distance to stop, it was instinctive just from looking at the freight cars that they were heavy. I knew one kid who broke both legs and one arm jumping off a roof with homemade wings - we were about 8 years old but we all tried to talk him out of it, or at least try a trial run off something lower. Just looking at his weight and the surface area of the boards he strapped to his arms it was obvious to me that it wasn't gonna work. I really think you shouldn't need experience in real trains to know the physics in RW or DCC mode aren't right.

Maybe he wasn't flapping his wings fast enough........

 

[RRSignal]

CFI/II and MEI/II in 98 here. ATP in 00.

 

[Robert2d6]

CFI/II and MEI/II in 98 here. ATP in 00.

That's impressive.....

 

[railventure]

Hi,

Hope everyone had a good New Year.

Now i think these disscussions about what sim is best is really silly. To start with no train sim can replicate a real train, yes it can show how fast it is going, it can also show all the eye candy but the main thing is it cannot give you the feel of the train, I have been driving real trains for 27 years and everything from 25 tonne rail tractors to 3300 hp Diesel electric Locos and 3600 hp electric locos as well as Diesel hydrualic locos and EMU's.

Every train behaves differently most drivers have shut off points and power points, but you will find that these will change slightly with every train, you can feel the train whether it maybe dragging due to more emptys or it maybe short and heavy, or long and light.

A good example is a empty car train with open sides actually will drag due to wind resistance while a van train will tend to run better. Then you have to allow for curves, which can also create drag, grade, length of consist and location of different wagons within the consist, type of power including - are all the engines running efficiently. Then throw in the weather, when the last train passed over the track before, might have been a week so rust, oil, grass etc are all factors that a driver will feel as he runs over the line.

There are so many variables that no train sim can expect to get all this correct.

So find the rail sim you like enjoy it and be gratefull that you have so many choices.


P.S. We are lucky that we can even mention other sims on this forum as plenty of other game companies would ban these discussions straight away.

 

[sniper297]

Simple reason for that is Trainz is good enough to stand up to the comparison. Dunno about wind resistance, but in CAB mode Trainz does simulate more slip in wet weather, more drag for weight, grades, and curves. Main problem is the myth perpetuated by MSTS users (and I was guilty of this) who tried it in DCC mode, unaware that there was a more realistic option, and assumed MSTS had better physics. It doesn't. Anyone who drives Trainz in DCC mode and talks about physics should get their head examined.

 

[Clancy2012]

This thread gets weirder! Those looking for citations, are you for real? I dont log history, my browser auto cleans on each shut down. Zec confirmed there was a delay /hold on development and that sits ok with whatever thread I was reading. The effort now, as per countless tech game sites is on android platform integration, not for the pc simmer per say.

Those who are building a head of steam in the areas of cab driving, well I got a revelation for you. You are sitting in front of a pc, with a keyboard and mouse and perhaps for the real nerdy types a throttle device of some sort. You are no more getting a sense of drag on coupling full consists, be they 5 or 30, than anyone in DCC mode is. Your ass is on a chair somewhere in your home. It is scary that you wave your head at DCC users as if you are better equipped than them. You need some medical help for that condition.

I suppose the hard thing to accept is you are of no more consequence than utility vehicle simmers to anyone except yourself, in that delusional world you inhabit. Your a bit like the Call of duty dudes, never made the grade to be a real soldier, but are renowned for your navy seal expertise in the virtual worlds. You are a blight on the world of PC game simulation. The creepy thing is you don't see yourselves as playing for a few hours on a pc game, you actually think you are real world train drivers or the next best thing. Jesus it's funny if not seriously scary. Lighten up, your bad for business, the younger users will be afraid to interact with you in case you decouple.

 

[Robert2d6]

This thread gets weirder! Those looking for citations, are you for real? I dont log history, my browser auto cleans on each shut down. Zec confirmed there was a delay /hold on development and that sits ok with whatever thread I was reading. The effort now, as per countless tech game sites is on android platform integration, not for the pc simmer per say.

Those who are building a head of steam in the areas of cab driving, well I got a revelation for you. You are sitting in front of a pc, with a keyboard and mouse and perhaps for the real nerdy types a throttle device of some sort. You are no more getting a sense of drag on coupling full consists, be they 5 or 30, than anyone in DCC mode is. Your ass is on a chair somewhere in your home. It is scary that you wave your head at DCC users as if you are better equipped than them. You need some medical help for that condition.

I suppose the hard thing to accept is you are of no more consequence than utility vehicle simmers to anyone except yourself, in that delusional world you inhabit. Your a bit like the Call of duty dudes, never made the grade to be a real soldier, but are renowned for your navy seal expertise in the virtual worlds. You are a blight on the world of PC game simulation. The creepy thing is you don't see yourselves as playing for a few hours on a pc game, you actually think you are real world train drivers or the next best thing. Jesus it's funny if not seriously scary. Lighten up, your bad for business, the younger users will be afraid to interact with you in case you decouple.

After reading some of your posts, and trying desperately to follow your attempts at logic, my recommendation is that you purchase RW 2013 tomorrow. I think it will satisfy all your needs and fill the bill for you perfectly.

 

[captainkman]

Anyone who drives Trainz in DCC mode and talks about physics should get their head examined.

I agree, and if you think that i don't drive in Cab mode you would be wrong. I love Cab mode especially fpr steam locomotives.

I also say that this thread should be abandoned. Those who dabble in the dark side may do as they please. I think these comparisons are unfair. RW was a train sim from the start but was based on an old game, and Trainz started as a model railway simulator and got 'upgraded'. I therefore think that there is no basis for comparison when it comes to physics.

I also agree that sitting in a chair at a computer on a desk is nothing compared to a real loco, with the varying temperatures, dirt, oil and grease. i will one day drive a real ex-QR C17, and then drive the Trainz one and compare the two.

Of course that is my opinion. This shall be my last post in this thread unless someone quotes me directly.

Kieran.

 

[Clancy2012]

Hey Kieran, it is good to see there are a few more level headed users in this forum. I agree the thread needs to be locked now as it serves no purpose only to provide a platform for the lunatics to continue their barrage of abuse to those who are willing to try all forms of sim versions. At the end of the day I don't care which one people prefer, that is their choice. For me simming is a great escape from the stresses of life for an hour or two each evening.

I am delighted to get an opportunity to take the kids up to Belfast later this week to see these steam preservation folks. Children's lives are over run with tech these days, it will be good for them to feel and see the real deal. I am a steam nut and will travel and volunteer on them whenever it is possible. Had a fantastic trip in India earlier this year.

http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/

 

[JCitron]

I'll say the same thing I said before on this subject. Who cares, really, what we play with. It's all a computer simulation anyway. It's not like we're cheating on our spouse or something, or moon lighting at a competing company.

Trains are fun to drive, watch, and enjoy in our virtual world no matter what platform we choose, or what software version we choose for the fun. If you have the room on your hard drive, install both versions. It's not like they're chemicals like sodium and water, which will blow up! They don't even know that each other exists, and their's no conflict between the two.

The thing is we all become loyal customers of one brand of some product or another. It's like Ford versus Dodge. Each company makes their own SUV. Dodge has their unique Jeep products, which they inherited from American Motors, and Ford has their own standby Explorer. Each brand has their disadvantages and advantages. Could someone own both? Sure. Are there Ford or Doge police going around ensuring you only have a single brand in your driveway, or owned by your household? Of cource not. It would be nice if we could combine the two and come up with one perfect product. This is the same with Trainz and RW. If we could get the awesome graphics and dynamic lighting found in RW, and apply that with the awesome AI, scripting, and easy of use into Train TSx, we'd have the perfect rail sim. So until this day comes, we should appreciate what we have no matter what product we own. Remember nothing is perfect in this imperfect world.

John

 

[TorenHynes]

Can people please stop starting annoying Railworks threads? We've have loads of them over the life of these forums and trust me it gets boring after a while.

I have MSTS and TRS2006. Both have their faults and advantages. Just enjoy them all. The main reason why I wouldn't get Railworks is because you're tied down to Steam, and Steam is very annoying. Trainz also has the best third-party addons of any train simulator.

Is Railworks vs Trainz the most controversial thing ever on this forum? It sure sounds like it.

 

[Vern]

As someone withe experience using and building in the three "big" train sims (plus some of the smaller ones) it does boil down to the fact that none of them do it perfectly.

Railworks is ideal if you want to experience commuter or passenger operations, driving from A to B on a timetable. Interaction with other trains is limited to what can be arranged to run as AI in the opposite direction, taking great care to ensure the whole thing doesn't collapse like a house of cards. However the built in AI will route your train for you, albeit on the preset path you set up in the scenario editor so there's no dynamic variation. Physics vary but generally not as good as the developers would have you think - some of the features on so called "advanced" traction like the Sprinters is only arrived at by complex scripting and if you look close enough the wrinkles are still there. Example: modern UK DMU's with Voith hydraulic transmission - each notch on these is simply set up as a cruise control which will hold a set speed regardless of gradient. The Railworks route editor is little advanced on the MSTS one of yesteryear. I did actually try to get back into this over the Xmas holiday but gave up in frustration. Track laying is it's strongest point as Jim (Sniper) has mentioned, though I haven't been able to get my head around doing superelevation. However the rest is not so good, terrain texture palette and painting tools are a joke, 3D objects have no thumbnail and there are few aids or shortcuts. In any event Railworks is increasingly orientating towards add on content being produced at a professional (read payware) level with a relative handful of people close to the developer/publisher being courted with the promise of royalty money. The latest EULA issued with TS2013 is hostile towards independent content creation and the process of continuous upgrade means what worked in this years version might not do next year. Oh and RW supports use of the XBox 360 controller.

Trainz is really great for building route, particularly in association with Transdem, the intuitive user friendly tools and the thousands of items on the DLS. Unfortunately where operations are concerned it's still a bit set in that old model railway paradigm. While there are advanced rules out there for those who understand them, for most people you end up driving your train, setting points as you go and trying to figure out your path. Can't set up a timetabled run in the way you can with RW or MSTS or have the sim monitor your progress. Physics - well I have driven some really good stuff in Trainz (the S&C2009 traction, some of the Russian and Chinese motive power) but also encountered a fair share of lemons which run up a 2% grade with a 5000 tonne train in Notch 2 or stop same in about 200 yards from 60 MPH. Steam simulation is still not a particular strong point either. However as said, I love Surveyor so accept the compromise.

I do feel there needs to be a new version of Trainz soon and I feel strongly that needs to start addressing some of the oft repeated feature fixes - such as points and crossings that draw correctly with spline track, a decent tunnel system and last but not least, AI routing for player trains (as an option) and proper timetable setup.

 

[TRam__]

Another problem in trainz is impossibiity of saving during scenario. This is connected with complicated and (i suppose) faulty rules' behavour during saving and loading of save. Also it is practicaly impossible to save wide-used rules and commands like "wait" and "wait for" because they use a thread, that cannot be saved with a script. As the result, completation of complex 2-hours scenario results in some attampts for 1 - 1.5 hours.

And portals doesn't show the kuids of generated trains in kuid-table of session. Command rule doesn't show all used rules in kuid-table. "Driver setup" rule also doesn't show all required drivers in kuid-table.

Physics - well I have driven some really good stuff in Trainz (the S&C2009 traction, some of the Russian and Chinese motive power)

Simplest trainz disadvantage of physics from MSTS/RW - the train comprssion and extension process only when the train starts its motion (at the begining of the session) or if it change the direction of its motion (like in promo-video of TS12). Yes, now it is possible to solve with a script hack (introducing any physics model you want), but this can't be wide used in the most of rolling stock and can resut in incompatibility.

 

[shaneturner12]

The latter is a known issue, and the rule that is supposed to do it (Portal Dependencies) does not work in later versions.

It is possible to save in non-multiplayer sessions, but the problem is that some commands are not designed for load/save.

Shane

 

[TRam__]

And i know that it isn't so difficult to fix this bug. But these rules stay in primordial form from 2004.

 

[AJ_Fox]

These type of threads historically degenerate into personal comments, and "my dog is bigger than your dog" kind of posts. I won't close it for now, but the next personal diss comment I see here will result in this thread being closed.

Cheers

AJ

 

[TheWaluigiKing]

"Anyone who drives Trainz in DCC mode and talks about physics should get their head examined."
What are talking about my head is fine