The DLS Process needs fixing.......

[DaveL]

Gentlemen & Ladies,

I did not start this thread to find out how each one goes about finding missing deps. I started it to initiate interest in correcting the problem of missing deps.
I understand that my first suggestions may or may not be workable in any form.
Also, you all must understand that I have no other gaming experience besides Trainz, so references to XYZ game and such will be lost on me.

Zec,

I feel that your post was no more enlightening than the normal "news conference" at the American White House. Sorry !
In other words you told us something, but then again, nothing at all.

Chris,

Short succinct answers are fine, but a bit more information would make them much more useful.

Google,

Can someone tell me how is it possible for the great and wonderful Google to return "not found" referring to a KUID ?
If Google has not and/or cannot find it, how can I find it ??

Dave

 

[pware]

... I started it to initiate interest in correcting the problem of missing deps.

As at least one of the responders have indicated, a complete solution may not be possible unless a great many restrictions are placed on content - for example by following Apple's lead and only allowing apps downloaded from Apple's App Store (read the N3V DLS) to be installed. This will drive a number of very good creators away from the game but if you want a solution that will work then this may be it.

Can someone tell me how is it possible for the great and wonderful Google to return "not found" referring to a KUID ?
If Google has not and/or cannot find it, how can I find it ??

I too have suffered from the "crisis of faith" that results when Google returns a "not found" result for a KUID. Eventually, I gave up on looking. I now routinely delete anything that I have downloaded from the DLS that contains unknown assets. Essentially, I am following Apple's App Store philosophy - "if it ain't on the DLS then it don't exist".

Peter

 

[DaveL]

What Peter said !!

Although I'm not quite ready to do the delete thing just yet.......

Dave

 

[Barry]

It has been interesting reading about Trainz over the last few months as was considering it's possibilities again as regards content creation. I have a link to my Blender and Game Engine Tutorial (includes 12 mile Blender maritime route details) on this forum and a link to the details in the content creation forum. I can not help with getting content into Trainz and that is for others. I don't think Trainz is for me anymore which has been confirmed by following the events over the last few months, but will leave the tutorial link on these forums for a little while , but again that is dependant on feedback/discussion. Moderators delete this post if you wish. Barry. Happy Sailing in Trainz, in Blender Game Engine or in real life

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

Gentlemen & Ladies,

I did not start this thread to find out how each one goes about finding missing deps. I started it to initiate interest in correcting the problem of missing deps.

~snipped~

Can someone tell me how is it possible for the great and wonderful Google to return "not found" referring to a KUID ?
If Google has not and/or cannot find it, how can I find it ??

Dave

You have highlighted valid and long-standing criticisms of the Trainz system. I have never been a supporter of 3rd-party websites as exclusive repositories of Trainz content, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. If kuids are not on the DLS and Google can't find them, it's often because many 3rd-party sites have a terrible habit of not indexing content by kuid number, or at least not in a format that Google can pick up. So the only resort is to ask on various Trainz forums if anybody knows about the missing kuid, but it's not a sure-fire way of finding anything. All these points have been raised many times before, but if you dare criticise the concept of 3rd-party sites, you inevitably get howled down by those that do not appreciate the problems they cause.

 

[KingConrail76]

Gentlemen & Ladies,

I did not start this thread to find out how each one goes about finding missing deps. I started it to initiate interest in correcting the problem of missing deps.
I understand that my first suggestions may or may not be workable in any form.
Also, you all must understand that I have no other gaming experience besides Trainz, so references to XYZ game and such will be lost on me.

Dave

You have highlighted valid and long-standing criticisms of the Trainz system. I have never been a supporter of 3rd-party websites as exclusive repositories of Trainz content, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. If kuids are not on the DLS and Google can't find them, it's often because many 3rd-party sites have a terrible habit of not indexing content by kuid number, or at least not in a format that Google can pick up. So the only resort is to ask on various Trainz forums if anybody knows about the missing kuid, but it's not a sure-fire way of finding anything. All these points have been raised many times before, but if you dare criticise the concept of 3rd-party sites, you inevitably get howled down by those that do not appreciate the problems they cause.

Many of you are overlooking a very important, and key aspect, as to WHY some Content Creators refuse to use the DLS;
-Namely, it is because of N3V's DLS Policy that says (paraphrased):

"Anything that you upload to the DLS may/can/will be included in a future version of Trainz, as Built-In content. We (N3V) may use your content for commercial purposes, and make a profit from your free labor, without your explicit permission, and WITHOUT paying you Royalties for your time and effort. We (N3V) can and will apply DRM to your content, and restrict you from modifying and/or updating your own Assets. Once you upload your assets to the DLS, even though by Law you still own them, you no longer have any rights to control their useage, and we will not abide by your instructions or EULA, because we make our own rulez. Thank you, and skrew you."

Google,

Can someone tell me how is it possible for the great and wonderful Google to return "not found" referring to a KUID ?
If Google has not and/or cannot find it, how can I find it ??

Dave

Sometimes you have to work a little smarter. If you find no results for the entire KUID as it appears in the "missing" list, try removing the "2" from "KUID2", and the last version numbers "<kuid2:123456:78910:1>" including and after the last colon. It that still finds nothing, then remove the asset numbers, and only search the user prefix "<kuid:123456>...this will atleast tell you who the author is by name. (Both of those methods can be used in both Google and Content Manager to broaden results).
-Once you know the author by name, you can search their name combined with "trainz" to find their web lite, or content location.

Give me one of the KUIDS that you have had zero results for, and I'll outline my process, and see if I can't find it for you, just this once.

 

[ZecMurphy]

Rather than paraphrasing, and making some false accusations, I would recommend looking at the actual DLS Upload Agreement KingConrail76.

[h=3]Grant of license[/h]With regard to all your New Works uploaded to the Auran Download Station, you grant to N3V a personal, transferable but non-exclusive license to those New Works in order that N3V can redistribute the New Works to third parties:
(a) by making the New Works available for download from the Auran Download Station for free or for payment;

(b) by including the New Works on a CDROM or DVDROM (or other storage medium) that is made publicly available for sale or that is given away; or

(c) both (a) and (b).


[h=3]No conveyance[/h]The grant of the license in clause 2.1 ("Grant of license") is not and cannot be deemed to be a sale, transfer or any other conveyance of your intellectual property rights held in the New Works.

That is quoted directly from the DLS upload agreement.

As such, some of your accusations in your 'paraphrased' post are very much incorrect...

Anything that you upload to the DLS may/can/will be included in a future version of Trainz, as Built-In content. We (N3V) may use your content for commercial purposes, and make a profit from your free labor

Correct, but the profit part can be considered to apply to any content released anywhere (since the 3rd party content is one of the reasons why Trainz is very popular)... It should be noted that the majority of routes included with TRS2006 and newer simply could not have been included without this clause... The clause is also required to actually be able to release it via the DLS to any degree, especially via the First Class server.

, without your explicit permission,

Incorrect, by uploading to the DLS you ARE giving explicit permission, as you are agreeing to the DLS upload agreement.

and WITHOUT paying you Royalties for your time and effort.

Correct.

We (N3V) can and will apply DRM to your content

Correct, but as has been pointed out, DRM can include serial number based systems. See again comments about earlier versions above...

, and restrict you from modifying and/or updating your own Assets.

Incorrect, but it isn't as directly easy if you have it installed as built-in or DLC content (this has always been the case, just the earlier 'encrypted' .texture format had several programs available to edit it).

Once you upload your assets to the DLS, even though by Law you still own them, you no longer have any rights to control their useage, and we will not abide by your instructions or EULA, because we make our own rulez. Thank you, and skrew you.

Incorrect, please re-read the DLS license agreement. You grant N3V a non-exclusive license for us to distribute your 'new work' via various methods, including the DLS. This means you can grant the same license to anyone else you choose too... You are not losing any intellectual property rights to your content, only that you are giving a license to use the content in free or payware releases. The artwork still remains your property (or the property of the original creator).

I should point out that the DLS upload agreement, by requiring you to agree to it, does overrule any 'license' tag in your config.txt file in regards to the license you grant to N3V. However, any non-redistribution (or permission to re-distribute) sections are still valid. Payware sections have been covered many times elsewhere.

Regards

 

[KingConrail76]

..snip..

Incorrect, please re-read the DLS license agreement. You grant N3V a non-exclusive license for us to distribute your 'new work' via various methods, including the DLS. This means you can grant the same license to anyone else you choose too... You are not losing any intellectual property rights to your content, only that you are giving a license to use the content in free or payware releases. The artwork still remains your property (or the property of the original creator).

I should point out that the DLS upload agreement, by requiring you to agree to it, does overrule any 'license' tag in your config.txt file in regards to the license you grant to N3V. However, any non-redistribution (or permission to re-distribute) sections are still valid. Payware sections have been covered many times elsewhere.

Regards

What I was refering to with "no longer have any rights to control your own content" is that once your "non-exclusive license", takes effect, upon DLS upload, you will not remove my content from the DLS, and your products, upon my request, if for some reason I decide I no longer wish to share my content, and want to withdraw your "non-exclusive license"...this effectively takes away my Legal Rights to restrict distribution. Your "non-exclusive license" has no "Term", so in your mind, you have a "right" to use my content indefinately, even if I do not wish that to be so. Your policy is very much Two-Faced though, because you implement DRM methods that allow you to turn off my access to purchased DLC with the click of a mouse, regardless of my prior payment and the EULA included at the time of purchase. (I'm not saying that N3V ever WILL do it, but you have the "ability"...yet you take that "ability" away from anyone uploading to the DLS.
--Regardless of the wording or samantics of your "non-exclusive license", you effectively take control of peoples content, and do with it as you please. That isn't the point though.

The point is, many Content Creators (including myself) have read, and do understand, in-full, the "non-exclusive license" terms that are required to be agreed to before uploading to the DLS, and we simply do not agree to those terms, and will not upload our Original Content to the DLS.

 

[martinvk]

..., if for some reason I decide I no longer wish to share my content, ....

Not questioning your "right" to do so but how do you do that? Like everything else on the Internet, once released, it takes on a life of its own and effectively lives on forever. Once your content has been shared, whether via DLS or some other distribution mechanism, it is out there. You may not want to share anymore but if anyone or everyone who have it decide to share it anyway, not much you can do about it. So you make it more difficult to find but don't gain much real control.

 

[KingConrail76]

Not questioning your "right" to do so but how do you do that? Like everything else on the Internet, once released, it takes on a life of its own and effectively lives on forever. Once your content has been shared, whether via DLS or some other distribution mechanism, it is out there. You may not want to share anymore but if anyone or everyone who have it decide to share it anyway, not much you can do about it. So you make it more difficult to find but don't gain much real control.

The same can be said about "payware" or unsupported software. If "Content" is withdrawn, for whatever reason, then it becomes unethical and illegal for someone else to re-distribute without permission of the original creator...it's called "Software Piracy".

(Rhetorical question) Do you support and advocate "Software Piracy" ??

Most of the Community are respectful enough to not go about "sharing" Content who's Author has withdrawn it from public access...For example: Amtrak HHP-8. Author, Cornelia Lubing (connyxy). Connie withdrew her content, and the Community has been very good about not "Pirating" her content, and sharing against her wishes...it's called RESPECT.

In my OPINION, N3V do not respect Content Creators who upload to the DLS, (via their "non-exclusive license" policy), and for other reasons not related to this topic.

 

[sdiesel]

that's something i've never understood, but i also came from a time when the internet was about share your goods and info to get more goods and info.
i fail to see why someone would want to deny access to content that was created to be used by people, unless it's just a power control thing.
which is why i like n3v's idea, yes you loose rights, but that content will(in theory) still be there until n3v kicks the bucket. you created it to be used by people, for what logical reason would you remove it(other than to update)?

dont get me wrong, there is amazing freeware and payware out there. but i respect the freeware more because of access. payware holds it's own for me as well, but when good content evaporates and isnt either made freeware or moved to a better source then i get a bad taste.

 

[matruck]

In my OPINION, N3V do not respect Content Creators who upload to the DLS, (via their "non-exclusive license" policy), and for other reasons not related to this topic.

Unfortunatly you are banging your head against the wall trying to get sumthing thru to the DLS or Nothing brigade, Personaly i think it's 90% full of worthless crap anyway apart from what the russkies are cloning and throwing up on the DLS.....ops that wasn't supposed to slip out God forbid N3V can't even control what goes onto the DLS or who is putting it on there LOL.
Cheers Mick.

 

[n8phu]

People who try to tell freeware creators what they can do with their creations only accomplish 1 thing:


Killing off content creators.

 

[KingConrail76]

that's something i've never understood, but i also came from a time when the internet was about share your goods and info to get more goods and info.
i fail to see why someone would want to deny access to content that was created to be used by people, unless it's just a power control thing.
which is why i like n3v's idea, yes you loose rights, but that content will(in theory) still be there until n3v kicks the bucket. you created it to be used by people, for what logical reason would you remove it(other than to update)?

dont get me wrong, there is amazing freeware and payware out there. but i respect the freeware more because of access. payware holds it's own for me as well, but when good content evaporates and isnt either made freeware or moved to a better source then i get a bad taste.

This is another side of my Point;

What some people upload to the DLS for free, N3V then take, and sell for profit..to me, that is wrong on several levels, the highest being, I want my share. If They get paid, and the creator does not, THAT is a very good reason to withdraw content.

Another reason some people withdraw content is because they leave the Hobby, or move to another Simulator, and it is easier to remove and trust, than to have to constantly keep an eye out for people not following the EULA...You do know that just because something is Freeware and/or on the DLS, and N3V can do with it as they like, that YOU, the downloader can NOT do as you like with it...YOU must follow the Author's EULA in addition to N3V's EULA.

The "power trip" crowd are the ones that constantly show off screen shots of what they made, or are making, then explain that it will never be released anywhere, not freeware nor payware...or have Websites that they have to "approve" membership before allowing downloads...even I avoid those myself.

Don't get me wrong, all your arguments make sense...but they are also why some creators choose not to use the DLS to distribute their content in the first place, and never will.

 

[KingConrail76]

Unfortunatly you are banging your head against the wall trying to get sumthing thru to the DLS or Nothing brigade, Personaly i think it's 90% full of worthless crap anyway apart from what the russkies are cloning and throwing up on the DLS.....ops that wasn't supposed to slip out God forbid N3V can't even control what goes onto the DLS or who is putting it on there LOL.
Cheers Mick.

Bingo!

(10 Characters)

 

[martinvk]

...

(Rhetorical question) Do you support and advocate "Software Piracy" ??...

No and no, but that doesn't happen anyway? :wave:

What about respect for the user who only downloads a few objects at a time, misses the withdrawal deadline and is then left with an incomplete route? Just tough luck? Nice!

And yes, I have shared some of my content in the past, and after millions of downloads it's all still out there on the DLS, none of it removed.

 

[KingConrail76]

No and no, but that doesn't happen anyway? :wave:

What about respect for the user who only downloads a few objects at a time, misses the withdrawal deadline and is then left with an incomplete route? Just tough luck? Nice!

And yes, I have shared some of my content in the past, and after millions of downloads it's all still out there on the DLS, none of it removed.

1. "Remove Missing Asset"

2. "Replace Asset"

Welcome to Life. Sometimes, the things you want, you simply can not have.

 

[ex-railwayman]

You have highlighted valid and long-standing criticisms of the Trainz system. I have never been a supporter of 3rd-party websites as exclusive repositories of Trainz content, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. If kuids are not on the DLS and Google can't find them, it's often because many 3rd-party sites have a terrible habit of not indexing content by kuid number, or at least not in a format that Google can pick up. So the only resort is to ask on various Trainz forums if anybody knows about the missing kuid, but it's not a sure-fire way of finding anything. All these points have been raised many times before, but if you dare criticise the concept of 3rd-party sites, you inevitably get howled down by those that do not appreciate the problems they cause.

The thing is Deane, it must be stated that the majority of 3rd party websites across Europe, Russia, China, etc, were specifically created in their own languages for their fellow countrymen/women who played Trainz, some of these sites have been around for 10 years, or, so, and set up so that Googling kuid numbers is highly frustrating, because they weren't indexed next to the assets from the outset, and I highly doubt that they will be updated in the future, therefore, I can understand your reluctance to obtain anything for your creations, which is a fair point and the community would need to respect your position on the matter.
But, I could also argue that many content creators, especially, these days, who've set up their own freebie websites, are younger generation, schoolkids, etc, who have no concept of anything administrative to assist the community when hunting for any assets, many websites these days don't even advertise what version of Trainz they are generating freeware assets for, so, what chance do we have of finding scenery items when they don't assist us by providing the relevant kuid numbers for their content, but, as they are still young, doing anything properly isn't in their genes, some of 'em can't even spell correctly, but, their offerings to the community are quite superb and in many respects cannot be overlooked if we want to further enhance our layouts, so, the concept of 3rd party websites is fine, but, they do cause a lot of grief when kuid hunting, when the creators appear to give more importance to their material than to setting out their 'sites properly to enable us to find things quickly and efficiently, I can't count the number of times my monitor has gone through the window in sheer frustration over the years....:hehe:

I'm sorry if I've hurt anyone's feelings amongst the freebie website designers and creators, but, you do cause a lot of grief, some may say that this is only a hobby, but, for others, it's a way of making money on Payware assets, so, it can't be taken lightly.

Cheerz. ex.

 

[martinvk]

1. "Remove Missing Asset"

2. "Replace Asset"

Welcome to Life. Sometimes, the things you want, you simply can not have.

Which might work if only you knew what the missing asset was. If all you are shown is an unknown kuid number, good luck. And besides unless there is another method, the replace asset function only works if both assets are already in your Trainz. Deleting missing assets is fine but then how do you know where it was to even guess what it might have been?

Much better if all assets used in a publicly released route are on the DLS.

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

The thing is Deane, ...snip....
Cheerz. ex.

Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me there, ex!

I'd simply add 2 points to my previous rant;

- I emphasize that I don't support 3rd-party sites as exclusive repositories of Trainz content. I don't mind if creators also put copies of their content on a zillion 3rd-party sites, it's only the one on the DLS that matters when it comes to making everything as easy as possible for the end user.

- Language has little relevance if assets are indexed by kuid number.