The DLS Process needs fixing.......

[clam1952]

Agreed in principle, however the main problem is with routes already on the DLS, pretty sure that any responsible current route builders who read the forums are by now well aware of the problems and will hopefully take steps to ensure things improve in future.

The solution I have adopted to avoid these problems when I eventually finish the route I'm working on is a clean install of TS12 without any payware or third party assets from external sites, only additional DLS items added. The only additions to that being what I make myself which I am gradually uploading to the DLS.

If however someone creates a route that requires payware, it surely isn't rocket science to add for example "Requires Payware" or "Requires non DLS items" to be added to the Thumbnail, being the first thing people look at and detail what from where in the description.

 

[sdiesel]

i really like the idea of DLS lock, if it's not on there and cant be uploaded(because the content you used into yours) then the file is refused.

it's way more fun to play the game then actually fix it because of errors created by something that could be avoided.

payware i guess could take a hit, but the end user experience would be so much more rewarding.

 

[NICKEL]

I agree with wreeder about the Trainz experience being more the Hunt for Red October. Spending days and all sorts of extra downloads because the kuid isn't on the site is just a name so you have to download half the site to get the proper assets. Then the hunt for the dep of the dep which can be on another site.

Another real big problem is the popular assets on a third party site that is used by hundreds of people. The creator finds another interest and the web site disappears and now many routes are useless or severely crippled. To fix a route of these missing assets you delete them and now the route is no longer shareable if you want to create a session for upload as the route has to be saved as yours. I can see where people start using Trainz and quickly get turned off and move on to something else. I have no problem with Dave's suggestion.

 

[Robertbc6]

I am having a little bit of difficulty relating to the "hard" solution to the DLS problem. I would resent N3V telling me I can't buy content from anyone except them. I think, legally, that might also be a problem. Not long ago Microsoft tried something like that, and the courts came down on them HARD. Just imagine, if Microsoft could do that, we couldn't buy any software that worked in Windows, except from Microsoft. (Not even Trainz!!).

In addition, all of the payware I have ever bought has always had all of the dependencies included. So what would be the point in eliminating 3rd party payware?

 

[KingConrail76]

Ya know, I would even settle for a place to go that would take a KUID and tell me where to get it.

Dave

It's called "Google".

This whole discussion is just silly. N3V will NEVER make such a restrictive change to the DLS, and it is not up to N3V which Payware providers sell their wares through Simulator Central.
--Theoretically, if N3V required ALL payware to be sold through Simulator Central, and Sim.Central alone, the majority of Payware would disappear, and a large user base who appose the current DLC/DRM system would abandon Trainz for good.

It's bad enough that anyone PRE TS12-SP1 is already barred from using new payware from SimCentral, due to the in-game download system (new assets no longer available in .ja format), but your suggestion would make ALL payware inaccessable to a LARGE majority of Trainz users (anyone not willing or able to upgrade paste TS12-PreSP1).
--That's a LOT of lost revenue for the Third-Party payware guys...no income, no new content, the rapid decline of the franchise. Your proposal would kill Trainz.

 

[dragonharh]

Why not do it an easier way like what I've done with Dragons Pass I made a detailed list of all kuids I used and posted that list on my website with links on were to find the missing kuids its simple and helps you find out what it is that is missing and were to get it problem solved I been doing it this way for 3 years.

Something like this:
DPR RS5-2 Stealth Shunter

Kulds:
afp V series,<kuid:9999:57003>
corona red,<kuid:168789:10563>
Diesel Fuel,<kuid:-3:10011>
DPR RS5-2 Stealth Shunter enginespec,<kuid:375451:100107>
DPR RS5-2 Stealth Shunter Interior,<kuid:375451:100112>
GE BQ23-7 Culper Fornt,<kuid2:375451:100315:1>
GE BQ23-7 Culper Rear,<kuid2:375451:100316:1>
GE Dash 7 C30-7 7FDL-16 diesel engine sounds STANDARD speed,<kuid:508311:1015>
HOTT corona yellow,<kuid2:9999:21001:1>
HT-C bogie (rear) for SD40-2,<kuid2:523:156567:1>
Leslie RS3K,<kuid2:126323:54012:2>
Sand,<kuid2:112938:130:3>
Water,<kuid:-3:10004>

 

[ex-railwayman]

Yeah, sorry, I understand where DaveL the OP is coming from, but, fixing the DLS, it'll never happen, and I agree with the comments from KingConrail, if N3V start placing zillions of restrictions, then half the customerbase would walk away.
The other thing of course is that quite a lot of the routes released on the DLS are 'foreign', I cannot think that any of the European creators, especially those, who don't speak English, would like their assets being displayed on the DLS, it's already happened to the veteran Russian content developers who've had their assets cloned off 3rd party websites and put on to the DLS just so the multiplayers can access them, when will it end.
I appreciate that many folks can't be bothered to go asset hunting, it is a chore I agree, however, of the thousands of routes displayed currently on the DLS only a handful since 2003 have special instructions regarding obtaining missing assets, either in the route description, or, in the config. txt, if DaveL wants creators to change their ways after 11 years, good luck to him, I know what the answer is likely to be.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[NSWGR_46Class]

That is a good idea until the owner of the site shuts it down or walks away form it and then the assets can not be down loaded at all and all related assets are useless

Why not do it an easier way like what I've done with Dragons Pass I made a detailed list of all kuids I used and posted that list on my website with links on were to find the missing kuids its simple and helps you find out what it is that is missing and were to get it problem solved I been doing it this way for 3 years.

Something like this:
DPR RS5-2 Stealth Shunter

Kulds:
afp V series,<kuid:9999:57003>
corona red,<kuid:168789:10563>
Diesel Fuel,<kuid:-3:10011>
DPR RS5-2 Stealth Shunter enginespec,<kuid:375451:100107>
DPR RS5-2 Stealth Shunter Interior,<kuid:375451:100112>
GE BQ23-7 Culper Fornt,<kuid2:375451:100315:1>
GE BQ23-7 Culper Rear,<kuid2:375451:100316:1>
GE Dash 7 C30-7 7FDL-16 diesel engine sounds STANDARD speed,<kuid:508311:1015>
HOTT corona yellow,<kuid2:9999:21001:1>
HT-C bogie (rear) for SD40-2,<kuid2:523:156567:1>
Leslie RS3K,<kuid2:126323:54012:2>
Sand,<kuid2:112938:130:3>
Water,<kuid:-3:10004>

 

[NSWGR_46Class]

The DLS will not let you up load an item unless it carries your own kuid ( this is outside of the DLS clean up) so what happen if someone wants to up load a route and make sure all the items they use on it are on the DLS for like multiplayer what then need to do is clone all the items and then upload to the DLS as their own, hence the very problem we are now having.

 

[jonsearles62]

The missing dependency problem in Trainz is unlike anything I've seen anywhere else in gaming. Virtually everywhere else cross dependencies are included with content automatically, and there's an uproar on the relevant forums over even one incident. The complication of using kuid's instead of filenames, while in some ways understandable given the quantity of content, makes it even more difficult to track down the dependencies, especially given that content providers unexpectedly delete (free) content from the DLS without warning, and then never leave a not anywhere about what their kuid's were. I've got two very large track layouts that I downloaded from the DLS, and they still don't work because they both have multiple missing kuid's that don't seem to be available anywhere.

All of this having been said, and I'm only posting this around to see if I can get a response....I haven't been able to get the DLS to work for a week, either via the Content Manager or via the website. What's going on? Is it down for repairs?

 

[ZecMurphy]

Good Morning All
We are fully aware of the missing dependencies issues, and this is something we have been and will continue to look at to improve. We may look into placing a DLS/DLC/Built-in only restriction on some asset types in future, however there is no ETA on when this might occur, if it actually does at all. We do not wish to make the DLS too restrictive for creators, except where it is necessary to ensure Trainz runs correctly (e.g. ensuring content is error free).

Regards

 

[clam1952]

especially given that content providers unexpectedly delete (free) content from the DLS without warning

Lets gets some correct facts here, we as in creators, cannot delete our own content from the DLS.
No one can delete anything from the DLS other than N3V and the only things they delete are items that could cause the game to crash which is rare or items stolen and cloned by people claiming that they created it, that's copyright theft. We as the creators of the original are quite within our rights to request have illegal copies removed by N3V

Reading between the lines, you may have been a victim of downloading routes that used stolen assets which is a problem at present.

 

[martinvk]

This has got to be the most obvious strength and weakness of Trainz. All of that content made by all of the wonderful creators is a huge resource that enhances the experience no end but ensuring you have all the pieces a route builder used is not always easy.

One of the freedoms we enjoy is the right to host our own objects anywhere we like and not just on the official DLS site. That freedom should also include the duty to ensure that objects hosted elsewhere are always easily available. If or when the host is not available anymore, the creator should have the duty to find another host or if they have lost interest in Trainz altogether, either give them to another person to host or belatedly put them on the DLS for the benefit of the community. Of course none of this could be enforced but we can still hope.

As was alluded to in a previous post, including all dependencies with each route CDP would solve the issue but at a high cost. Large file sizes plus redundant object download and storage. Apparently some other games function like this. Be interesting to hear how well that works in practice, especially how disk clutter and version conflicts are handled. And does it really solve all dependency issues or are there other gotchas?

And then there are payware issues. Don't know how that could be solved besides a large warning and a list of the payware that is used in a route.

 

[sdiesel]

heck, it would be great if X item in question was listed as 'PURE' or 'DIRTY', the first meaning all assets are on DLS, second meaning some or all assets are not on DLS.

better words could be used to show the difference, but some sort of marking or notice before downloading should be there.

 

[pcas1986]

I doubt if any route maker, who wants to share their route with the Trainz community, deliberately uploads a route with missing dependencies.

In my view the problem is that Content Manager cannot show that an asset and it's dependencies exists both locally and also on the DLS. If it did then most of the issues here could be easily avoided. I did try Shane's suggestion of using the TrainzUtil "Status" command but if an asset is local then a little d is shown.

Having a "clean" TSxx install is the only way I know of solving the problem.

 

[martinvk]

I agree but we're not debating intent, rather the effect. Doesn't matter why it was and still is done, but how do we mitigate the results. Since I don't think many people know where every last object in their CM comes from, I certainly don't, it would be helpful if CM could indicate if a specific item exists on the DLS. Hope this ability will make it into T:ANE

 

[WindWalkr]

I agree but we're not debating intent, rather the effect. Doesn't matter why it was and still is done, but how do we mitigate the results. Since I don't think many people know where every last object in their CM comes from, I certainly don't, it would be helpful if CM could indicate if a specific item exists on the DLS. Hope this ability will make it into T:ANE

CM can already tell you this.

chris

 

[martinvk]

Then every route builder who uploads to the DLS needs to know how to use this feature to either prevent the issue or to create a list of what is not on the DLS that is in his route.

 

[pcas1986]

Then every route builder who uploads to the DLS needs to know how to use this feature to either prevent the issue or to create a list of what is not on the DLS that is in his route.

I took one of my routes that I knew to have at least one dependency problem and did this:

1. Viewed all the dependencies for the assets - i.e right click on the asset, select view dependencies, then View in Main List. This gives the initial search criteria in Asset Kuid.
2. Then added to the search:
And On Download Station = false
And Built In = false

I was left with one asset which was part of S&C and therefore should not have been in the route - at least if I intended to upload it.

Its a bit fiddly but it should work.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Since I don't think many people know where every last object in their CM comes from, I certainly don't, it would be helpful if CM could indicate if a specific item exists on the DLS. Hope this ability will make it into T:ANE

Hmmm, I'm a bit confused Martin, as Chris (windwlkr) states, this feature has existed within CM from I think TRS2006 days, but, I would stand corrected if that isn't a fact. In CM, when you install a route, either from the DLS, or, 3rd party site, it gives you a list of how many assets there are on the layout, how many are on the DLS, unknown items, etc, etc. Even some of the unknown items are actually on the DLS and will install automatically, some items show up as asset unknown on the DLS, but, are actually there upon investigation, I always have a window open to the DLS when installing routes and I can manually check on what doesn't get installed directly to see what CM has missed, it doesn't take long, and whatever is still missing I can do a copy and paste of all of the kuid numbers from the pop up box and put them onto a text document that I've created for all of my routes, and can then go 'hunt the kuid' to find them.

Cheerz. ex.