The Beginning of the End?

[JCitron]

I've been thinking about the slower new content creation thing for since this topic started. I wonder if this has to do with the updates being done on the DLS to make the older content error free.

Instead of creating a lot of new content, the content creators are spending their precious spare time fixing the old stuff at the moment. I feel that once this process is done, the flood gates will open up, and there will a lot of new stuff for TS2009 and upwards.

John

 

[LWVRR]

I've been thinking about the slower new content creation thing for since this topic started. I wonder if this has to do with the updates being done on the DLS to make the older content error free.

Instead of creating a lot of new content, the content creators are spending their precious spare time fixing the old stuff at the moment. I feel that once this process is done, the flood gates will open up, and there will a lot of new stuff for TS2009 and upwards.

John

I suppose it could be however if you look at it, you got some that stayed with TRS2004/2006 are only making content on 3rd party sites. There's what seems to be an ever growing section of creators working on payware only item. After that, theres not many folks left. I'm crossing my fingers that this will change after the next Trainz is out.

 

[JCitron]

I suppose it could be however if you look at it, you got some that stayed with TRS2004/2006 are only making content on 3rd party sites. There's what seems to be an ever growing section of creators working on payware only item. After that, theres not many folks left. I'm crossing my fingers that this will change after the next Trainz is out.

My feelings are they will, but perhaps not in the rush like they used to be.

I agree with the the sentiments here regarding the older content. Auran/N3V shouldn't have disallowed the older content from being uploaded to the DLS as long as it was made error free. That would have made it the best for both worlds. The newer versions still load the older content anyway, so what's the big deal here, and people who still run TRS2004 and up through TRS2006, could still load the older stuff if they wanted. They may need an FCT to download, etc., but at least the content would still be available.

John

 

[big_b]

I find for me now anyway is the speed which new releases come out.With each new release it seems like you buy it get a service pack that fixes some of the problems then start saving up for the next release to get the rest of the fixes.I have a few versions sitting on the shelf & I'll probably get the new one & put TS2010 up there too only so I dont get left behind.

Back when we all ran either 2004 or 2006 which hung around for awhile the forums talked about playing the game.Screen shots of guess what I'm building now etc.

But now open any section of the forum & all you see are help me questions or I spend all my time now fixing things instead of playing the game.These are not just questions from the newbies but also from the older members.

The game seems to be changing too quick & needs to settle on a release & get all the problems solved then go for the next big block buster release instead of just adding a couple of new features to what appears to be the previous version with glitter.

Dave

 

[Euphod]

The game seems to be changing too quick & needs to settle on a release & get all the problems solved then go for the next big block buster release instead of just adding a couple of new features to what appears to be the previous version with glitter. Dave

We've discussed this before, as you know. I'm thinking that Trainz was previously not at a point in development where the basic game could be frozen in time and updates applied as needed. "Codelock", if you will. Perhaps now that the major milestones have been reached....Multiplayer, Doppler, Content to one standard, etc...the game can be augmented every so often with updates and booster packs and the like.

I'd pay for such a system, instead of a new version every couple years.

 

[JCitron]

I find for me now anyway is the speed which new releases come out.With each new release it seems like you buy it get a service pack that fixes some of the problems then start saving up for the next release to get the rest of the fixes.I have a few versions sitting on the shelf & I'll probably get the new one & put TS2010 up there too only so I dont get left behind.

Back when we all ran either 2004 or 2006 which hung around for awhile the forums talked about playing the game.Screen shots of guess what I'm building now etc.

But now open any section of the forum & all you see are help me questions or I spend all my time now fixing things instead of playing the game.These are not just questions from the newbies but also from the older members.

The game seems to be changing too quick & needs to settle on a release & get all the problems solved then go for the next big block buster release instead of just adding a couple of new features to what appears to be the previous version with glitter.

Dave

Dave,

This is a very valid point. I've seen this too, but unfortunately a lot of software is like this. This seems to be the way things are today in the current computer and software world.

Adobe, Autodesk, and even Microsoft are coming with new versions of stuff before the older ones have settled in. I remember when 3ds Max first came out in 1996 or so. Immediately the next version came out before anyone got used to the first one that appeared.

The same has happened with Adobe's programs. And very typical of Adobe, their version upgrades are usually nothing more than bug fixes with a new price on them called a new version! Again the same situation exists, a few buttons are moved around, a few bugs are fixed, major ones usually not, and then new ones are introduced. Version 10.x of something is not much different than 3.0 except for a few new unecessary features that no one will rarely use.

Microsoft does this with each version of Office and even Windows. People finally got used to Vista, as bad as it was, and now Windows 7 is out with Windows 8 coming out next year.

There are many other companies that do this too, and these are the few that came off the top of my head. This is most likely because of the software rapid design and update cycle we have today. The companies sadly need this I think to compete and stay ahead so their not left in the dust.

John

 

[Vern]

After my latest (mis)adventures with Railworks, all I would say to N3V and the residual Auran developers: Bring in a handful of long sought after changes to Trainz and - far from the original proposition of this thread - you could sweep the competition away. However that seems to require a leap that they haven't so far been able to make, but really guys you are so close to holding the prize can you not seriously take a look at simple stuff like points rendering correctly, making it easier for player trains to follow a timetable, setting a path without invoking rules etc.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.

Dave,

This is a very valid point. I've seen this too, but unfortunately a lot of software is like this. This seems to be the way things are today in the current computer and software world.

Adobe, Autodesk, and even Microsoft are coming with new versions of stuff before the older ones have settled in. I remember when 3ds Max first came out in 1996 or so. Immediately the next version came out before anyone got used to the first one that appeared.

The same has happened with Adobe's programs. And very typical of Adobe, their version upgrades are usually nothing more than bug fixes with a new price on them called a new version! Again the same situation exists, a few buttons are moved around, a few bugs are fixed, major ones usually not, and then new ones are introduced. Version 10.x of something is not much different than 3.0 except for a few new unecessary features that no one will rarely use.

Microsoft does this with each version of Office and even Windows. People finally got used to Vista, as bad as it was, and now Windows 7 is out with Windows 8 coming out next year.

There are many other companies that do this too, and these are the few that came off the top of my head. This is most likely because of the software rapid design and update cycle we have today. The companies sadly need this I think to compete and stay ahead so their not left in the dust.

John

You are so right there John in what you state. I believe the reason for the almost annual new versions of software is the simple fact that companies need a continual source of income to pay for ongoing software development. Whereas in the 90s new versions would be released at a maximum of every 4 to 5 years with very significant changes to the program this is no longer the case.

Today, New versions of software are released almost annually and only contain limited changes. The software companies then rely on their regular users buying the new version throughout the year which creates the continual source of income they require to pay staff, development engineers and basic costs.

The above has mixed advantages and disadvantages. With my speech to text software (Dragon NaturallySpeaking) I have purchased every version since 06 and I am now on version 11. In that time I have seen great strides in the usability and quality of the software until today I can dictate many paragraphs very quickly usually without any correction needed at all.

Arguably, Trainz has also progressed through the various releases even if the quality progress is much slower. The downside of all the foregoing is that it can be for many an expensive business of upgrading not only the software but also the computer hardware that is needed to go with it.

Obviously, not everyone can afford to keep up with the continual changes and unfortunately have to remain with earlier versions and therefore lower quality. However, it is difficult to see how things could be done in any other way. It is the way that our capitalist system works (survival of the fittest) and until someone comes up with something else I suppose that's the way it will remain.

By the Way, John, thanks for the support with regard to the march. Since CaptEnglad reported me to MI5 as an enemy of the state, four shady looking characters in a car have been parked at the bottom of our cul-de-sac. On going out to my car this morning I saw a white substance on the door which I immediately took for Semtex explosive and I ran back in the house. However, on the wife going out to inspect it turned out to be " bird droppings"

Bill

 

[Smileyman]

A rare post from me, so I guess I'm one of the ones that got away.

Before I list my reasons for not being around here anymore, I'd just like to point out that there's one person in this thread that illustrates point 11 in the OP's list, seemingly taking every opportunity to be a 'smart-alec' or be disruptive.

Anyway, I'd just like to say that the following list does not speak for everybody.
Mileage will vary from person to person.

No-one has a perfect list as to why some people lose interest in Trainz.
We're all individuals (In a Monty Python voice, from the back of the room, "I'm not!")

For me;

• Moderation hasn't been the best here for a long time (my opinion)

• Lack of participation from Auran/N3V, compared to the good old days, and any participation is often abrupt (unless there's a new game release coming)

• Trainz franchise prioritizing features that really don't interest me (or certainly aren't the most important aspects of the game (imo), like SpeedTrees and online play).

• While I understand the business model behind the DLS/FCT/Older assets fiasco, it does annoy a lot of people, and it's not surprising to hear people here saying that they're ok with it (you won't hear people who aren't here anymore saying otherwise, because they're not here, lol). I hardly downloaded anything anyway, so it doesn't bother me, but I totally understand those who are bothered by it. Personally, I'd have preferred Auran to have made the next version of Trainz a "must have" rather than trying to force people to upgrade.

There's probably a few other things, but I must stress that it's a combination of these things, and others, that have just made me lose enthusiasm for Trainz and these forums, and I wouldn't make a crusade on behalf of any one point.

It's a lot of little things that could/should be addressed, and lack of communication from Auran mean that very few of them are.

I'm sure I'll get back into TS2010 at some point, and maybe future versions, but I doubt I'll ever enjoy the forums as much as I used to, which is a shame.

Smiley.

 

[StorkNest]

You can still create in GMAX and the new material stuff etc. is as far as I''m aware possible with other software.

There is a learning curve with Blender in general and its taking some time for all the kinks to get worked out, for example the :cull bug with the N3Vimporter. I personally think its less limiting than GMAX and easier to build more complex items.

I'm not certain that much could be made to make content creation that much easier. The big problem is "training" or people using the appropriate tutorial. Parts are very specialised and I don't honestly think we can expect every one to be able to follow every component of content creation. Scripts are still an area I avoid and I've been writing computer programs for more than forty years now.

Focusing on this part, I was looking at modeling programs and came across reference to a file format called .DAE that is a cross-platform format related to COLLADA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COLLADA
I only recently learned about this so I may not have everything on it. However, this format can be used by several different modeling programs including Autodesk's, Blender and Sketchup, all known tools used by creators here.
Auran releases meshes both on the Wiki and the Content Creation CDs in MAX format, also gMax on the CDs. This means users of other software have to convert those models if interested. If meshes were released in .DAE format, that one file could be used by anyone (except gMax users) without conversion. This would be support for a broader group of creators.

Also I am no expert on things computer related but I wonder if this .DAE/Collada format could somehow be made to interact with the current Trainz tools that take XML models and make them into Trainz meshes.

Next is the Wiki information. Example, I went looking for the KIND:enginespec and noticed several tags have no description, luckily most if not all are in the old CCG. It would be half-temptiong to just take the CCG info and paste it into blank areas of the Wiki but would the info be correct? I noted tags that used to be marked as 'not used' do not have that on the Wiki.

Yes, tutorials for some areas would help but I think there were few who knew how to do those areas.
Scripting is one, all the available tutorials deal with scenarios and that was actually moved away from. Nothing defines what script errors mean or what else can be done with scripts. I tried two different scripts on a reskinned locomotive, while they are fine in CM, they kick script errors when placing the engine in Surveyor and I remember how hard it was to get answers on what script errors meant back when TRS2004 was new because not many knew scripting.
Enginespecs and soundfiles are others that could do with good tutorials on them.
Also the entry in the Wiki for KIND Track - (including Bridges and Tunnels) and scenery splines are built using TS2009 Stitched track left me lost for a bit, I tried doing a simple spline bridge as KIND Track but while not displaying errors it never showed, I had to go back to the Classics KIND Bridge method to make it work so the Wiki entry leaves me lost.

 

[LWVRR]

Also the entry in the Wiki for KIND Track - (including Bridges and Tunnels) and scenery splines are built using TS2009 Stitched track left me lost for a bit, I tried doing a simple spline bridge as KIND Track but while not displaying errors it never showed, I had to go back to the Classics KIND Bridge method to make it work so the Wiki entry leaves me lost.

I was able to convert Jjslll54's girder bridges to TS2009 standards. If you want you can look at them to see how they are set up. I used a TS2009 fence on the DLStation as a guide...but I still don't understand it.

 

[johnwhelan]

Focusing on this part, I was looking at modeling programs and came across reference to a file format called .DAE that is a cross-platform format related to COLLADA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COLLADA
I only recently learned about this so I may not have everything on it. However, this format can be used by several different modeling programs including Autodesk's, Blender and Sketchup, all known tools used by creators here.
Auran releases meshes both on the Wiki and the Content Creation CDs in MAX format, also gMax on the CDs. This means users of other software have to convert those models if interested. If meshes were released in .DAE format, that one file could be used by anyone (except gMax users) without conversion. This would be support for a broader group of creators.

Also I am no expert on things computer related but I wonder if this .DAE/Collada format could somehow be made to interact with the current Trainz tools that take XML models and make them into Trainz meshes.

Next is the Wiki information. Example, I went looking for the KIND:enginespec and noticed several tags have no description, luckily most if not all are in the old CCG. It would be half-temptiong to just take the CCG info and paste it into blank areas of the Wiki but would the info be correct? I noted tags that used to be marked as 'not used' do not have that on the Wiki.

Yes, tutorials for some areas would help but I think there were few who knew how to do those areas.
Scripting is one, all the available tutorials deal with scenarios and that was actually moved away from. Nothing defines what script errors mean or what else can be done with scripts. I tried two different scripts on a reskinned locomotive, while they are fine in CM, they kick script errors when placing the engine in Surveyor and I remember how hard it was to get answers on what script errors meant back when TRS2004 was new because not many knew scripting.
Enginespecs and soundfiles are others that could do with good tutorials on them.
Also the entry in the Wiki for KIND Track - (including Bridges and Tunnels) and scenery splines are built using TS2009 Stitched track left me lost for a bit, I tried doing a simple spline bridge as KIND Track but while not displaying errors it never showed, I had to go back to the Classics KIND Bridge method to make it work so the Wiki entry leaves me lost.

The ideal format for a CAD program is one that contains enough information for the program to be able to use all its features but no more otherwise the file gets too large.

Each CAD program has a list of things it can do and they tend to be different to all the others. So if we want a format that works with everything we first have to start by finding a subset of features that work across the board and are implemented the same way.

When you convert what you are doing is converting a subset of features of one program into a subset of features in another program and hoping the person who wrote the converter is interested in the same subset of features as you are. Also that the features are correctly converted.

This explains why there are at least three converters from .md3 to Blender which are used to convert GMAX to Blender. Some are more useful for some models than others.

Some one could write something to create an output file that could be imported into the N3V XML importer. Currently I think there are two users of the importer Blender and Pev'stools but more programs could be done its just finding someone with the motivation, expertise and time. Blender doesn't do a bad job at the moment. What advantage would a new program offer?

One of the reasons I stay away from scripts is that two scripts can work fine in TRS2004 but put both wagons / locos on the track at the same time the scripts interact and corrupt each other leading to a script error. This is the reason I use other people's scripts where possible. The fewer different scripts there are the less chance of an unwanted interaction.

Cheerio John

 

[TorenHynes]

The oldest Trainz creator that I know of that's still very active is Euphod.

 

[Euphod]

I don't think that's correct, others have been making content before I stumbled into this place.

 

[mrscsi]

I don't think that's correct, others have been making content before I stumbled into this place.

I was going to suggest we whack a limb off and count the rings to verify...:hehe:

 

[boleyd]

No Real Technical Updates

Selling "new" version, with few meaningful changes, plus selling addons reflects the changed focus from the product's quality to revenue.

 

[aardvark1]

Selling "new" version, with few meaningful changes, plus selling addons reflects the changed focus from the product's quality to revenue.

Almost sounds like... Ford....GM....Chrysler.

Have fun,

 

[JCitron]

or Oracle, Microsoft, Adobe, Corel, etc.

This is called the mature stage of a company where the original founders have left, or moved into other roles, and the company is now focused on sustaining profits to meet the the requirements of investment capitalists now looking for their return on their investment.

In Auran's case, they grew, fell, and then were fed some venture capital to keep running. Now the stake holders want something in return.

John

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.

or Oracle, Microsoft, Adobe, Corel, etc.

This is called the mature stage of a company where the original founders have left, or moved into other roles, and the company is now focused on sustaining profits to meet the the requirements of investment capitalists now looking for their return on their investment.

In Auran's case, they grew, fell, and then were fed some venture capital to keep running. Now the stake holders want something in return.

John

Once again John you have hit the nail right on the head there with your posting. Had it not been for the fact that Aurran was rescued then we would not be arguing about 2010 or the forthcoming 2012. Instead of the foregoing we would have been in a similar position to the Microsoft rail simulator users gradually watching their system being slowly but surely outdated.

Some call N3V " failures", and they are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. However, they have kept the Trainz simulator and our hobby going, staff in their employment and so doubtless they want a return on their efforts and investment

it is called capitalism and in buying Trainz we subscribed to it.

Bill

 

[Euphod]

I like the cut of your jib Bill, with the whole world screaming for their "rights" and entitlements (like a nest full of Robins waiting for mom to fill their beaks) it's refreshing to know someone who understands the system.