Technical railroading question..

[omber]

I'm building a large terminus station using Andy's station kit,

in regards to single locomotive trains - when the train is empty, do the locomotive pushes the carriages out to a yard or do they get towed out (including the loco) by a switcher, specifically what is the practice in UK?
If so do departing trains that start their journey at terminus, I assume they'd have to first back into the terminus with the loco at the head of the train? Or is terminus an "end of journey only" type of station?

 

[jivebunny]

It varies greatly (trust us not to do things simply!). There were a few main practices in use:

- In many cases a train would arrive and the locomotive would be decoupled. Another locomotive would then simply come to take the carriages away, either on a new service to another destination or to the nearest carriage sidings. The original locomotive would then be able to run out of the platform to be turned around / serviced etc...

Many stations also had "runaround" facilities, where a set of points would be provided towards the buffer stops to allow an arriving locomotive to be uncoupled, moved forward, and then run around to the other end of the train. Tender locomotives would usually be turned around before coupling back up to the train, so that they were facing the right way for the return journey. Tank engines could run in reverse more easily so were less of a problem and could just be taken to the other end of the train.

This is roughly what a typical setup would have looked like (click for larger versions)


In the earlier days of steam when locomotives were a lot shorter, I believe some stations even had a small turntable at the end of the platform so that locomotives could be a) turned around and b) sent onto an adjacent track to run around the train. I can't think of any specific examples in the UK but it was very common in France in the 19th century.

I don't think there would have been many instances where the arriving locomotive was left coupled to the back of the train while another loco pulled it away, as this would simply mean having to stop the train further up the line to detach the locomotive at the back. That doesn't mean it didn't happen though, maybe someone will be able to enlighten us on that.

In the modern-day UK the driver simply switches to the cab at the other end.... BORING.



JB

 

[Gangsta_Boi]

And thats why some clever person created the Multiple Unit

Must admit, thats a tight runaround facility JB

Thanks,
Gangsta_Boi

 

[laldfordo]

At some terminuses, the engine that had brought the carriages in, whether the main line engine from an incoming service or a shunter that had brought empty carriages in, would help the engine on the departing service by pushing as far as the end of the platform. This on tracks where there was not a run-around possibility.

 

[jivebunny]

True, forgot to mention that. It's tricky to model in TRS though as the loco on the rear (the banking loco) would be uncoupled before the train departed, then would simply drop off once the train had gathered speed.

If you jump to 6:20 on this video there's a clip of a banker on the back of a train (the BTF videos are all worth watching though if you get the chance)

Cheers,

JB

Edit:

Must admit, thats a tight runaround facility JB

Yep you have to watch your speed as you pull away from the train, I've set it up so the AI can handle it though, which is quite cool to watch

 

[omber]

Anyone has any track plans of terminuses ? The one at Waterloo station is great , sadly google earth details arent good enough..

Also I just saw the massive Frankfurt one, thats one crazy place...

 

[skiingiggy]

Try searching Pennsylvania Station on GE. It is a little blurry but it can help. (hoboken station works too.)

 

[AndrewH]

.....In the earlier days of steam when locomotives were a lot shorter, I believe some stations even had a small turntable at the end of the platform so that locomotives could be a) turned around and b) sent onto an adjacent track to run around the train. I can't think of any specific examples in the UK but it was very common in France in the 19th century.......

Birmingham Moor St. r.i.p.

 

[davidbird]

...
some stations even had a small turntable at the end of the platform ... I can't think of any specific examples in the UK ...

Ravenglass, on Ravenglass & Eskdale Railway

I don't think there would have been many instances where the arriving locomotive was left coupled to the back of the train while another loco pulled it away, ...

Happens all the time now in Mallaig! Regular trains are 156 Sprinters, but excursions are all "top-and-tailed", as are even the occasional engineering trains. Two locos are used for reliability, as now there are no rescue locos nearer than 6 hours away, but for past few years, the only trains still to do a runround are the Jacobite steam trains. This also seems to be regular practice with loco-hauled trains all over the UK - are we losing the skill of running round?

 

[steviez]

The reason for the engine on the rear these days is because of the simplification of many track layouts and to facilitate rapid turn rounds of stocks etc.

Also more relevant is the fact that until fairly recently the railway rule book did not allow a dead engine to be on the rear of a train without an attendant in the cab and if i remember rightly it was the royal train that was the first to have a loco attached at the rear (but there was always a driver amongst others security *wink* and radio communication between cabs of the "train" loco.

Hope that answers the question in regard to current operating practice

 

[davidbird]

Also on the Mallaig Line, from when all excursions were double-headed 37s, then top-and-tail 37s (the first was the 2001 Centenary Special with Robert McAlpine (both the person and the Class 37!), to now we often have top-and-tail 47+57. As these are heavier than the 37s, they are required to be at opposite ends of the train to avoid overloading certain bridges...

 

[jivebunny]

Cheers for the example davidbird! Still can't think of any mainline examples though! With regards to having a loco on the back end, I was referring to steam operations rather than modern-day. That said I'm not sure which period omber is looking to model so it is still worth mentioning.

I think the fact that many loco-hauled trains these days have a loco on each end is down to three main factors:

1) Backup (as already mentioned). Network rail charge operators for using the track infrastructure and for any delays they cause, therefore it's in the operator's interest to "get out of the way" as quickly as possible if a failure occurs.

2) Reversibility. As above, the operators are charged for the time their trains spend on the track. If they have a loco on the other end it reduces runaround times and therefore costs.

3) Infrastructure. Over time, steam haulage changed to diesel haulage, diesel haulage saw the introduction of DBSOs and DVTs allowing trains to be driven from both ends, and then DMUs and EMUs started to take over. At each stage, the need for runaround facilities at stations decreased significantly, so when the time came to modify the layout or replace old track in terminus stations, the points which would have existed near the buffer stops would simply have been removed to save on costs. BR / Railtrack / Network Rail may even proactively gone around removing these points, as it would have saved them a fair amount in terms of maintenance costs and regular checks etc..

Nowadays there are very few mainline stations with points near the buffer ends of the platforms. In fact I can't think of any at all - makes it much more difficult to run around the train if your loco is trapped between the carriages and the buffers! :hehe:


JB

 

[Athox]

I know that in Gothenburg (Sweden), the loco is uncoupled and then the carriages are towed away, probably for cleaning and maintenance. Then the loco will drive away, then come back again with carriages the opposite way come departure time.

But then again, Norway and Sweden aren't places where you buy dozens of locos when one can drive there and back again.

I had to spend a night at the terminus station in Gothenburg, on the platforms (they locked the station). I was picking up a friend, but it was late, and when we got to the car park it was closed.

There was an electric loco at the platform with no carriages. I wondered why, but in the morning we found out. The pantographs were broken, they kept trying to make them work... took them about an hour. There were a lot of sparks and bangs... fun to watch though So that's why it wasn't driving the train back where it came from...

 

[davidbird]

How do you change cabs in a "top-and-tail" train (or HST) in Trainz/Driver/Cab mode? Alt+C changes cabs in a single dual-cab diesel loco. I've tried the Driver command "Get Off Train", followed by "Move to Train" and clicking on the other loco. But this seems to just return me to the cab at the "front" of the train, which was where I came from... Am I missing something?

 

[lewisner]

"Jivebunny" In the North East both Hull and Scarborough still have Loco Release points at the Buffers. At Kings Cross the loco used to couple to the train and depart with the "incoming" loco following a short distance behind.Setting up a set of points for AI working as in the Hull pattern is incredibly difficult-its far easier to just drive the loco manually..

 

[Wessex_Electric_Nutter]

Examples of different run around arrangements:

At North Woolwich (North London Line - Closed December 2006 - R.I.P.), there was a small turntable situated to the end of the platforms, as can be seen in these photos:


However, at Bouremouth West, another arrangement existed, which included no loco, that is that the train moved itself, by releasing the hand brake from the brake vans and let the train roll gently into the station, for the loco to couple to. This worked, until one unfortuate so and so, found a non gangwayed carriage in the centre of the formation:
http://www.semg.org.uk/misc/bomow-acc.html
Have a look here for North Woolwich station, note where the former turntable is:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/n/north_woolwich/index.shtml

 

[Jimmyp4]

Here in the United States (Amtrak) The main motive power brings the train in to a siding outside the station and is sent to servicing and the switchers take the train to the platform and back off while the passenger unload and then they take the train away (When they still had mail on Amtrak the main motive power took the mail cars with them to the serviceing/yard area). However I have only seen this done in Chicago in LA they just pull stright in.

 

[rroby]

Union Station in Washington DC has the same arrangement. The engine will uncouple and head off while a switcher pushes the cars into the station.

 

[laldfordo]

US practice at terminus

I must be careful what I write as I am currently in USA (where people are very friendly and helpful to foreigners - and that compliment also applies to the immigration and customs officials at Chicago airport) but it does not strike me as very passenger-friendly to park outside a station and change engines just for the last 100 yards or so. Are there deeper reasons for this practice?