Tane Canal lock (Turntable) opperation.

[parryjc]

Currently working on full scale model of Birmingham Snow hill, with the Birmingham Canal Network as part of that. Using "small canal lock 5 narrow" found in scenery - objects. This is the only object of correct size Lock available & worked in previous version of trainz but not in Tane.
Other turntables (AJS) do work, notations for all T/Tables on input table are correct.
If a boat/train attempts to move the lock turntable it freezes out all other t/Tables for that particular model.
Ending game does not "reset". Restart of PC will.

Tried with all other boat locks same problem..........:'(

 

[johnwhelan]

Not nice, hopefully some one can sort out a solution.

Do any locks work?

Thanks John

 

[parryjc]

Hi John,
TherE are several locks from the DLS I have two remaining to try out.....more trials. Now for simplicity, I have started a new layout nothing on it other than canal locks lengths of invisible tracks and other bits needed to make boats move under AI.
There is also one railway turntable which I can use to asses the functionality of the scripts in the input table etc. Canal boats if asked will operate the railway T/Table but try as I may can't get canal Tables to lift.

With nothing other than the above and a bare base board there can be no "introduced" faults from any other assets...
When I have made the next couple of trials I will post you the results. Thanks for your interest in this.

 

[vulcan]

Hi Guys,

The model is 2004, so perhaps there are some issues. While I have made a few transfer table models, I found that in recent versions of TRS2012 that the attached track was randomly detaching itself from the model during operation, you could drive on to the turntable, move it but when you drove off the other end the loco derailed - using visible track it was clear that the track was falling off as the turntable connected. I gave up making such models, checking the coordinates in Max, changing the order of naming the attachments, nothing fixed it.

Recently I tried a turntable in Tane and it seemed to work ok. I have now set up a blank route with the lock 5 model, used regular attached track (not invisible) and a normal loco. The model worked ok in Tane. I added a second model and track, and when I went to save the route and session to drive it, Tane said It could not save, check the disk space (I have a new computer so that is certainly not the problem). I had to use a new name for the save to get into Driver. I have occasionally had that problem recently with other routes in Tane, so perhaps not related here.

While one of the tables worked, Tane crashed to the desktop when I tried to use the second. On relaunching I was able to get both to work. I did not try to set up the Move Turntable rules.

Comments:

When clicking on the arrows to operate the table, you must have part of the model behind the red arrow, your line of sight should be through the arrow and have the center of the model directly behind it. In more recent model I had added a large invisible plane under the ground so this operation was not so critical for small tables.

I noticed that as the lock table went down, one end of the loco hung up (the loco took on a small slope, as if the table track was remaining attached to the upper exit track on lock 5) then suddenly fell down to the correct level as the table moved further.

As I said I was not happy with changes in later Trainz builds as previously working transfer tables seemed to develop faults. Perhaps a bug report should be submitted by someone in the Tane testing team.

Ian

 

[JCitron]

Interesting stuff here, Ian. I've been following the discussion since I've been interested in building a route with canals, which were quite common over here in the US in New England and the Northeast for a number of years.

I will note that the out of disk error is a bug, which has been fixed in the latest beta from what Tony has told us so that's more good news for those such as you who have fallen into that bug trap.

 

[parryjc]

Thanks to all who replied to my starter. The problem has been fixed . I made a second download, then installed that on the route. I had previously checked to see if the original had been flagged as faulty and nothing showed.

Now can anybody fix these two sore points. (Three if you count the "jump" up as boats go up/down in the lock, but I can live with that one.)

i) Small Canal Lock 5 Down hill direction, The model refuses to accept anything over a 50'0" boat. They stop short of the bottom gated as AI treat the end of the T/table plane as a stop signal. Up hill direction has spline end to add a short invisible track + track-mark + signal by which boats can be stopped right up against top gate, as they should.
Small Canal Lock 5 Is the only model that comes anywhere near correctly sized for the UK narrow canals, ie. Chamber to accept boats of a nominal 72'0" x 6'10"
Is there anyway to add that missing spline at the tail of the lock?
ii) City lock sides and tow paths were never green grass with neatly laid out path. Most were filthy dirty and rather uninviting circa 1950's. Can a lock be re skinned, I never entered the realms of that facet of trainz so help help (again)..........

 

[parryjc]

Ian,
The models work well enough in manual AI was my problem.
And yes, There seems to be a bug with Tane when attempting to go direct from surveyor to quick drive. I find it all ways locks up, although this was one of the earlier bugs that were reported as being fixed.
I now always exit surveyor back to "select route" then start the session again in drive mode.

 

[vulcan]

Hi John, thanks for the comments, I think this is the transfer table I built for Boat, he said most of the others were too wide to be prototypical.

1. As a test, I replaced the invisible track in the model with the visible Oak track, and yes, as the table goes down the table track hangs on the top attachment point for a short time then drops down. I have no fix for the issue.

2. Parryjc, after I had made a number of models, I was aware of the requirement to have an attached track beyond a turntable so the AI operates correctly, this is an old one. I have rebuilt the table, made it a build 3.5. I have added additional track to both ends of the table so the AI can "see" a track beyond the table and allow a boat to drive onto the center of the table. The track is green, has two segments, and curves away from the table so you do not inadvertently attach the main boat track. Add signals if required.

3. I have placed the new model on my website if you would like to try it:

http://ianztrainz.com/publicshare/canallock.cdp

If you use the model be aware that any previously placed model has to be deleted and replaced in order that the new track will show. Note that I have not tested the new track under AI.

4. Yes you can change the green texture (canal_apron.tga) to make it more "dirty", the texture was chosen to be close to the Auran built-in green grass texture so you could merge the model into the ground.

Let me know if it solves the main problems and I will upload it.

Ian

 

[stagecoach]

Hello Ian
Had a look at this model and I think the problem is to do with the curved track extension. As boat enters the lock it is at a slight angle and as it lowers you can see the track flick straight as it breaks away from the green track. I don't think it is hanging just straightening.

Keith

 

[vulcan]

Hello Keith,

It is occurring on the older models without the additional curved track. I had seen it on lateral transfer tables (sideways movement) back in TS2010 I believe, the table mesh starts to move sideways but the track remains "locked" to the attachment points for a short time, then it suddenly jumps sideways to catch up with the moving mesh model. I thought they had fixed that issue.

I have just placed my Transfer Table 3 in Tane to test it, and the attached track mesh on the table jumps around all over the place as the table moves sideways, and can lag behind by up to a metre.

[video]http://ianztrainz.com/publicshare/table.mp4[/video]

Ian

 

[JCitron]

Ian,

Thank you for the link. I'm going to try the canal lock and see how it works for me. Our canals are similar, or what's left of them, from what I've seen.

Regarding the slipping track. This was something which was brought up in the early days of T:ANE testing. It's a visual bug and not an actual problem with the model. I recommend bringing this issue up again now that SP2 HF1 is still in beta. You can see this on turntables as well, from what I remember.

 

[stagecoach]

Ian
The slight hang might be different to what I saw. Looking down on top of the boat as it enters the top of the lock it enters at a slight angle. Then as it starts to lower it does a jump to straighten out. Using canal boat 1 it is easily seen from directly above.

 

[parryjc]

Ian, my Apology for delay in getting back to you. Thanks for the updated model on which I have made various tests with AI. including the move turntable command.

These were my observations.
AI can not now see beyond the end of the T/table.
Have tried the model both with and without adding additional tracks to your provided invisible green tracks.
The inability to see passed the T/table end, applies to AI going in either direction.
In the old model, AI saw the user added track extension and track-mark for the uphill direction and worked perfectly well.

My suspected conclusion is that your green invisible is not correctly placed, or somehow jumps of its spline point when model placed on the board. Note that I have not yet tried to rotate the model, so rotation, that is not causing the problem.

Can I suggest you revert to the original but add a spline point to the down hill direction.
End user can then add their own invisible tracks, + signals and T/marks for both directions.
Maybe that could work better, or am I trying to teach Granny to suck eggs here?

I have read all comments, noted the reason for this sideways jump which is quite marked on the new model, but not present on the old. It was suggested that your green invisible track, being bent or curved to one side may be the cause of this.
If that's correct, my humble suggestion above would eliminate this little blimp too. Worth a try maybe?

Cheers Ian
John (Parryjc)

General note for any user.
You should place a signal close to the lock gate. Reason being if the gate is shut it prevents AI seeing beyond it. To get AI anywhere near the lock, place an approach T/mark before the signal. AI will then see this mark and drive right up to it, irrespective of the gate position. In the event AI stops short of the T/mark, just move the mark a little further away from the signal.
You can also add prior to the approach T/mark a green trigger marker.
Now lay a short adjacent invisible track not connected to the main line and add an invisible engine, which can respond to the trigger mark activated by the approaching AI and move the T/table to the correct position prior to your AI arriving at the lock. How far away to place the trigger? Depends on a little trial and error or if you want the boat to wait outside the lock rather than pass straight in.

Cheers all,
John(Parryjc)

 

[vulcan]

Hi John, Keith, thanks for the feedback.

Two mistakes in the model, by curving the extra tracks, the track on the table takes up that curve, as Keith had noticed, and I had the heights of the new attachment points incorrect on one end.

New Model here:

http://ianztrainz.com/publicshare/canallock.cdp

I have made all tracks straight, and extended the attachment points furtherest from the model for the canal track, so you can select the correct points when attaching tracks, the blue track is for the main canal track, the green is for extension points where you can place trackmarks.

The model is not an industry one so you cannot "Navigate To", you need to place some track marks and use the "Drive to Trackmark" as you know.

In testing I placed a trackmark in the center of the table track, made the radius 1 metre, but the loco would not quite drive to the actual center of the table. For normal tables, they are usually a bit longer than the locos used and able to tolerate a bit off center, I think you will find the canal boats are a tight fit and cannot quite fit between the gates, if so:

You need to place trackmarks on the green extension tracks, if you leave the radius the default 20 metres, you just need to experiment where to place the mark so the loco (boat) will stop in the center of the table. Using the large radius makes it easier to get the trackmark on the green track instead of accidentally on the blue track. The mark in the picture is about correct:

Naturally you will need another trackmark on the other end of the model for driving in the opposite direction. I also placed an invisible signal on the extensions , not sure if it would be needed.

If you would like to try the new version, let me know if it works for you. Again, thanks for the info.

Ian

 

[parryjc]

Hi Vulcan,

Yes now you have an excellent model, still hangs up a bit the only answer I can suggest for that one is to reduce the lift height. And I can't give you a reason just a feeling
it might help to minimize this hanging by Reducing the lift height to 6 ft. rather than the 3 meters you have? 6 ft incidentally is a lot closer to the average water level difference on a UK narrow cut than your ten.

Now, Three points to finish this off.

i) On the latest model I downloaded, I got no blue track marks, so just connect to the spline point and everything is fine.

ii) You definitely will need a signal on the end of the green stubs. Otherwise boats will stop dead at soon as they encroach on the far end of the t/table.

iii) WARNING to all end users. If you place a turntable on your model the first one will be "Turntable 0" Be aware that there are TWO blank spaces between the 'e' of turntable and the zero. If you do not take account of this when writing up the instruction in the "İnput table" your Turntable will not work.


Thanks to all for your help, advice, and input, particularly Vulcan for his great Lock. Stair case locks Vulcan? or ones with the UK prototypical fanned end? Wide locks 14' ft beam or Barge locks or ...or .................Ok. OK. I jest or do I? Thanks Vulcan :clap::clap:


Anyone unfamiliar with "input table" should follow EXACTLY this format.

My route contains several Canal Locks which I have named
Lock 1
Lock 2
Lock3
But you can give any name you like or alternatively just leave the Trainz auto generated name.

Input Table requires and consists of three pieces of information. These are, The object, the name of that particular object, and how many stops. Note stops begin from zero.
My Canal lock information is as follows. This is exactly how it should be written up in the Input Table

turntable, Lock 1, 2
turntable, Lock 2, 2
turntable, Lock 3, 2

The object MUST BE ALL lower case and followed by a comma and a space. The Object name enter this EXACTLY as you named it. Can be a mix of upper/lower case and numerical. and again follow that with the comma and space then the number of stops. DO NOT ADD anything after the stop number..........

Now all my locks can be operated by AI, if I include the rule to move turntable.

Now what! Lock 3 fails to work. Why so? Because the name I gave it has no space, but in the table there is a space. Go back and look, See? Pretty critical but that's how computers are. No brains of their own
Have fun.

 

[vulcan]

Thanks John,

When I change/move attachment points in a model in 3dsMax, you have to remove the old model from your Surveyor map for the new track to show, the blue track should be visible when you place the new model.

The double spaces are required in the table name when entering the data in the Input Table rule, a trap for new users, good point John.

The "hanging" is an issue we have to suffer, see the video above. In some versions of TS12, I have seen the table move sideways, and the track take some time to detach from the attachment points, then tries to catch up to it as the table moves.

One more improvement, I had used an invisible plane below the model to make the footprint bigger, this is to assist in clicking on the arrows as we discussed above. I have now made it larger to cover the whole model, so it is now much easier to click on the arrows to move the table. New model uploaded, click on the link in post14 above.

Ian

 

[parryjc]

Hi Ian

My reference to your post no. 8 in this thread.

4. Yes you can change the green texture (canal_apron.tga) to make it more "dirty", the texture was chosen to be close to the Auran built-in green grass texture so you could merge the model into the ground.

Time has come now, I would like to have a go at this, but where and how do I get started. Never once have I ever tried to make changes to a model. So what should I be doing here.

I have gone to Content Manager.
Filter set for installed, entered search box with "Small lock 5." Results as expected your model comes up.
Then I've asked for edit, and config file which opens in notepad.

Nothing shows remotely noted as "canal_apron.tga all I got was

kuid <kuid2:60238:60041:2>
light 1
kind "turntable"
trainz-build 3.5
height-range -10,20
category-era "1950s;1960s;1870s;1980s;1990s;2000s"
category-class "TR"

and obviously a whole lot more besides. I'm obviously in the wrong place and I think in need of some "pre school education level" instruction in this.

Kindest regards
John P.

 

[stagecoach]

Open in explorer and then open Trans_base.

 

[parryjc]

Thanks Stagecoach,

Now I have located "canal_apron.tga"
Tried to open it but get a pop up asking How did I want to open the file...............

I tried paint but that's not supported. Have to admit I'm stumped as to what app. I now need to do this change colour of the model.

Like I posted, absolutely my very first steps in this aspect of trainzing. I need my hand held and nose wiped, probably frequently.........
along with Pre schooling level type of instruction

Although you included a link, thanks for the thought, it goes to the the trainz download station. Is that what you intended? No instruction there as to what I do to alter this file, unless I missed something?

Kind regards
John P.

 

[johnwhelan]

Thanks Stagecoach,

Now I have located "canal_apron.tga"
Tried to open it but get a pop up asking How did I want to open the file...............

I tried paint but that's not supported. Have to admit I'm stumped as to what app. I now need to do this change colour of the model.

Like I posted, absolutely my very first steps in this aspect of trainzing. I need my hand held and nose wiped, probably frequently.........
along with Pre schooling level type of instruction

Although you included a link, thanks for the thought, it goes to the the trainz download station. Is that what you intended? No instruction there as to what I do to alter this file, unless I missed something?

Kind regards
John P.

paint.net do a google search works, GIMP is more powerful and free. I like Corel paintshop pro its fairly cheap and easy to use. ebay has copies for under $10 you want something later than XI if you don't feel like buying the latest and greatest. https://www.paintshoppro.com/en/special-offers/

Cheerio John