Still Seeking a Solution for Hidden Layers Issue

[illinoiscentral]

Hi All,

Its been several weeks now and I still can not use Trainz due to equipment putting my trains on hidden layers and screwing up the routes. The culprits of this are Jointed Rail train cars. Any of their train cars cause this problem, whereas their locomotives and any other content from other creators do not cause the issue. This is extremely frustrating, and frankly, I'm not very happy about it at all. Its pretty much completely ruined the usefulness of a software I paid good money for.

Does anyone have any solutions to this issue? There almost seems to be none...

Cheers,
Woody

 

[shaneturner12]

Sometimes, merging the session layer with the route layer (make sure it's that way round) can help fix this problem.

Shane

 

[illinoiscentral]

Shane,
I have tried that and it just simply does not take care of the issue. I have pretty much determined the issue is within the equipment itself.

Woody

 

[norfolksouthern37]

i would say it is in the software, seeing as i use my own equipment all the time with no issues (as do many others).

there must be something unique to your install that nobody else has... any error messages? logs? anything that might point you in the right direction?

the only thing special about most JR items is the scripts. have you checked that? deleted and installed the latest TFX? made sure the script cache is up to date? sometimes the software wont update it for whatever reasons.

 

[illinoiscentral]

Well, if it helps I got the game from Download Direct on eBay as a digital DL. As far as error messages, none that I can see. I thought, perhaps it was lacking the latest JR TrainFX, so I went and DL'ed that. It took care of the cars being faulty...however, the still end up on hidden layers. As far as the script cache goes...well, I'm not too smart in the technical sense so I'm not sure exactly what that is.

Woody

 

[illinoiscentral]

I went ahead and searched the Train Effects in my content manager and there was several versions installed, one of which was throwing a faulty icon. I went ahead and deleted them all and I'm going to DL the latest one off the JR website and see if that works.

 

[clam1952]

I think you may also need to delete the userdata\cache\libraries\ content, been a few instances of old libraries from the cache being used instead of newer ones.

 

[illinoiscentral]

None the less, I thought I had it fixed, but again...Jointed Rail cars threw a train away. The cute thing is, the tank cars don't do it. But I made the fatal mistake of adding a 4 bay hopper onto a train and the whole train is done for now and I can't get it back to delete it off the map. Yet another route ruined because of this. Ugh. I'm really at a loss here.

If it helps, the train with that hopper also would not allow me to put loads on a RR Mods flatcar.

Woody

 

[norfolksouthern37]

well the JR cars/locos all pull code from the same location, the TFX library. not very many have any real code in their own scripts, just getting it from a central location. i guess what i am saying here is that if one kind of car exhibits some problems all of the others based on that code should do so as well.

is it possible you can remove that car? maybe re-install it?

did you try to do what was mentioned in the previous post about the cache?

 

[illinoiscentral]

I will try to re-install it.

In reference to the cache...how can I see if its up to date? I went into the program files and found the folder, but I'm not sure what to look for in terms of anything being not up to date. There's several folders listed within the cache folder.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

1. be sure trainz is closed.

2. delete all the items in \UserData\cache\libraries

this will force Trainz to rebuild the cache when you open the launcher again. at this point, every scripted item will have had it's script recompiled into a library file. if these files are out of date for whatever reason (security, windows user settings and so on), calls to the code may be referencing items that are in the wrong location or out of date.

 

[illinoiscentral]

Alright, I went through with that. I rebuilt the exact freight train I did last time, and decided to check the loading on each car to see which one caused the train not to allow the cars to load. It was the CSX High Cube 60ft boxcar. After I removed it from the train, the cars were allowed to load again. I am assuming, this was the culprit causing the train to disappear last time. Its crazy. I deleted the autoracks, as they caused this on other routes as well...so hopefully, piece by piece I can figure this out. Very odd.

Thanks for your help so far, I know its a very weird situation!

 

[norfolksouthern37]

even worse is that you do not know what is causing it still. first you said it was all JR rolling stock, then that it was a 4 bay hopper, then the 60 ft boxcar, then the autoracks. it is very difficult to determine anything this way and i still do not think you have found any answers. i still think your install is somehow messed up and the game should be re-installed. if you have tried doing a complete database repair and the script cache update and as well have no assets with any errors or missing items and you still have these problems i can only come to the conclusion the install is corrupted somehow. so far no good reason has been presented as to why you think only JR items are at fault and are causing so many problems, from disappearing trains to making rrmods cars unable to load.

 

[justinroth]

I have had this problem, try creating a new route layer named something, doesn't matter..then merge that new layer with the existing original layer.

 

[KingConrail76]

even worse is that you do not know what is causing it still. first you said it was all JR rolling stock, then that it was a 4 bay hopper, then the 60 ft boxcar, then the autoracks. it is very difficult to determine anything this way and i still do not think you have found any answers. i still think your install is somehow messed up and the game should be re-installed. if you have tried doing a complete database repair and the script cache update and as well have no assets with any errors or missing items and you still have these problems i can only come to the conclusion the install is corrupted somehow. so far no good reason has been presented as to why you think only JR items are at fault and are causing so many problems, from disappearing trains to making rrmods cars unable to load.

I'm a bit disappointed in your response to this Justin. I posted about this same problem over a month ago, in the TS10 section, about Well cars from JR. Myself and another fellow went through various testing procedures and came up with no decisive cause for the issue, but the issue is no doubt caused by the JR cars/script.

It has been well documented by numerous others as well, something in the JR cars/scripts is causing random JR/"JR script based" cars to be placed on an inaccessable "invisible" layer, taking with them any other rolling stock/engines coupled to them (regardless of "creator"...this is why it is so hard to diagnose, and why "you" at JR should take the time to test each individual car the way "we" the end-users are having to do. (I added "JR script based" above, because as I write this, I recall someone having the same problem with some of Dave Snow's content that uses JR Scripts.)

I have personally gone so far as to completely wipe a hard drive, using the "clean" function, and a complete fresh install of TS2010, then the newest and latest downloads from JR (within the last three weeks). No other 3rd party content installed; JR Well cars still disappear. Well cars by SoCal (from SoCal website, not JR), and Dave snow did not originally disappear, even though they use the JR script, but have since began to do the same...this is why I suspect the script, more than the Mesh or Config files.

Since I got no interest from any JR representative at the time of my thread, I just basically gave up on the JR/JR based Well cars, and have gone back to using those older units from the DLS.
--I have never had an issue with any OTHER JR cars, nor my Payware NS Hertige Engines (full pack)...only the Well cars.
--Spine cars work flawless, for diagnosis information, in-case they share "loads".

I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty, so to speak, so if you have some suggestions, I am willing to delve deep into my PC to find a solution.
-As a note, My install is outside of "Program File/Program Files (x86)", I have full "Security" permissions, I run everything "As Administrator" and UAC is turned off.
--Win7-64bit, two different computers, over three different drives, using TS2010 49933

Edit: Just re-tested; One baseboard blank "route", two parrallel tracks 20 meters apart.
-JR Husky Stack and AP53 well cars disappear, SoCal "Pacer" and ONE personal repaint of it does not, a SECOND repaint DOES disappear (odd, because they are the exact same files, save color on one TGA, Blue is OK, Yellow disappears).
-JR Spine cars DO now disappear, JR Trash Spines DO NOT
--This is done using "Display Mode-Open GL"

Edit2: Repeated using "Display Mode-DirectX"
-Same results, all "yellow" cars get placed on some inaccessable invisible layer, all cars other than "yellow" are visible, and editable.
-To help explain; all goes well when in surveyor, UNTIL a Save. After Save-close-reopen, cars are inaccessable in either Driver or Surveyor..cannot be deleted, cannot be moved, cannot be coupled to, cannot delete track they are on...only option is to delete route and start over.
--"Merging" layers down into "Route" layer does not work, deleting "Session" layer does not work. The "Layer" they get saved on goes invisible, completely inaccessable.

Edit3: Finally making progress, inexplicable as it is;
-For the first time seeing the "commonality" of the fact that only the "yellow" cars are being placed on an invisible inaccessable layer, I took the AP53 well car "B" unit and retextured it to solid purple. Placing the Yellow A, purple B and Yellow C units on the same track, but not coupled, save-exit-reopen in surveyor;
--Result: The Purple B unit stayed visible, and editable. The two original Yellow textured units disappeared to an inaccessable invisible layer, never to be editable again...
Curious to say the least...Why would Trainz place something on an inaccessable layer based on the color of the TGA files???

---More system info: Current testing done on an HP Pavilion Dv6 laptop, AMD A6 Vision CPU, AMD Radeon Graphics chip, Catalyst Control set to allow Application to control graphic properties.

 

[trainman7616]

Dont know why but I have all the freeware JR trains in my game. Only the SECX GP38-2 Pack and all the cars show but any other engine by JR refuses to show. I have no errors or warnings. No faulty scripts. I did a quick and full data base repair and reinstalled my game. I hope I can figure this out soon. Same goes with the ATSF GP60M it fails to load but the B unit loads. Any ideas Justin?

 

[norfolksouthern37]

I'm a bit disappointed in your response to this Justin. I posted about this same problem over a month ago, in the TS10 section, about Well cars from JR. Myself and another fellow went through various testing procedures and came up with no decisive cause for the issue, but the issue is no doubt caused by the JR cars/script.

i strongly disagree. perhaps you should have posted in our forum section, it is not guaranteed that we see every post under the TS10 section, being that it is not our job to check there and i don't think any of us are using TS10 for other than testing purposes. i have no idea why you are disappointed in my response to this, no problem has been identified yet to respond to. i am merely trying to help.

It has been well documented by numerous others as well, something in the JR cars/scripts is causing random JR/"JR script based" cars to be placed on an inaccessable "invisible" layer, taking with them any other rolling stock/engines coupled to them (regardless of "creator"...this is why it is so hard to diagnose, and why "you" at JR should take the time to test each individual car the way "we" the end-users are having to do. (I added "JR script based" above, because as I write this, I recall someone having the same problem with some of Dave Snow's content that uses JR Scripts.)

again, i strongly disagree. there is no current issue with the JR scripts authored by myself and tested under TS10 that would directly cause any of the problems you are describing, yet i am still here trying to help you.

I have personally gone so far as to completely wipe a hard drive, using the "clean" function, and a complete fresh install of TS2010, then the newest and latest downloads from JR (within the last three weeks). No other 3rd party content installed; JR Well cars still disappear. Well cars by SoCal (from SoCal website, not JR), and Dave snow did not originally disappear, even though they use the JR script, but have since began to do the same...this is why I suspect the script, more than the Mesh or Config files.

again this is pure speculation, until you can provide an exact occurrence and prove that many users experience this problem as a result of one of the script faults.

Since I got no interest from any JR representative at the time of my thread, I just basically gave up on the JR/JR based Well cars, and have gone back to using those older units from the DLS.
--I have never had an issue with any OTHER JR cars, nor my Payware NS Hertige Engines (full pack)...only the Well cars.
--Spine cars work flawless, for diagnosis information, in-case they share "loads".

the spine cars also share the exact same code (fx_flatcar.gs) as the well cars.

I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty, so to speak, so if you have some suggestions, I am willing to delve deep into my PC to find a solution.
-As a note, My install is outside of "Program File/Program Files (x86)", I have full "Security" permissions, I run everything "As Administrator" and UAC is turned off.
--Win7-64bit, two different computers, over three different drives, using TS2010 49933

Edit: Just re-tested; One baseboard blank "route", two parrallel tracks 20 meters apart.
-JR Husky Stack and AP53 well cars disappear, SoCal "Pacer" and ONE personal repaint of it does not, a SECOND repaint DOES disappear (odd, because they are the exact same files, save color on one TGA, Blue is OK, Yellow disappears).
-JR Spine cars DO now disappear, JR Trash Spines DO NOT
--This is done using "Display Mode-Open GL"

Edit2: Repeated using "Display Mode-DirectX"
-Same results, all "yellow" cars get placed on some inaccessable invisible layer, all cars other than "yellow" are visible, and editable.
-To help explain; all goes well when in surveyor, UNTIL a Save. After Save-close-reopen, cars are inaccessable in either Driver or Surveyor..cannot be deleted, cannot be moved, cannot be coupled to, cannot delete track they are on...only option is to delete route and start over.
--"Merging" layers down into "Route" layer does not work, deleting "Session" layer does not work. The "Layer" they get saved on goes invisible, completely inaccessable.

Edit3: Finally making progress, inexplicable as it is;
-For the first time seeing the "commonality" of the fact that only the "yellow" cars are being placed on an invisible inaccessable layer, I took the AP53 well car "B" unit and retextured it to solid purple. Placing the Yellow A, purple B and Yellow C units on the same track, but not coupled, save-exit-reopen in surveyor;
--Result: The Purple B unit stayed visible, and editable. The two original Yellow textured units disappeared to an inaccessable invisible layer, never to be editable again...
Curious to say the least...Why would Trainz place something on an inaccessable layer based on the color of the TGA files???

---More system info: Current testing done on an HP Pavilion Dv6 laptop, AMD A6 Vision CPU, AMD Radeon Graphics chip, Catalyst Control set to allow Application to control graphic properties.

i think this further proves no action is necessary toward the scripts, most of the cars you have mentioned here use the same codebase. maybe the issue lies in texture compression settings? suggest toggling the hardware texture compression settings in cmp and opening for edit and re-committing.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

Dont know why but I have all the freeware JR trains in my game. Only the SECX GP38-2 Pack and all the cars show but any other engine by JR refuses to show. I have no errors or warnings. No faulty scripts. I did a quick and full data base repair and reinstalled my game. I hope I can figure this out soon. Same goes with the ATSF GP60M it fails to load but the B unit loads. Any ideas Justin?

you seem to be saying that built-in and non built-in items alike are not functioning. update the train fx or try reverting back to your TS12s version of train fx that is built in and start from there.

 

[KingConrail76]

Obviously, through my own testing today, we've discovered that the scripts, may in-fact, not be the culprit after all.
-We've also discovered that the color "Yellow" has a significant impact on the issue.
--I don't see how we've definitively excluded scripting as being an influencing factor (perhaps, instead of disagreeing with my opinion, you could explain, briefly, how scripting can not possibly be the cause, such as the relationship of script to mesh to texture, etc.)

I'm humbled enough to admit, my earlier testing and results pointed towards scripts, but today has pointed towards another cause.
-That said, your attitude towards the whole issue is disturbing, to say the least. I'm here trying to fix an issue I'm having, and all you can do is stand there and act like your poop don't stink. Heck, maybe it don't, but you could still try to be helpful instead of deny there is an issue...

I did testing, and posted result...all you did was disagree...HOW ABOUT SOME HELP?
-Try explaining how "texture compression" of Textures colored "Yellow" is any different than those colored "blue"...seriously, I have no idea how "Texture compression" is implemented, or what it affects, or what affects it...a simple summery will do.
--ie, SoCalwb909's "Pacer" cars (blue) compared to SoCalwb909's "AP53" cars (yellow)?

I would have posted the issue over on the JR site, but can not for the life of me find your Forums, I guess they were done away with when the new site was created..IDK.?
-I initially posted the issue in the TS2010 section, because it was an issue I was having in TS2010, and this Forums format indicates that is were it should have been posted.
--Regardless, that was then, this is now...lets move on, shall we?

 

[norfolksouthern37]

Obviously, through my own testing today, we've discovered that the scripts, may in-fact, not be the culprit after all.
-We've also discovered that the color "Yellow" has a significant impact on the issue.
--I don't see how we've definitively excluded scripting as being an influencing factor (perhaps, instead of disagreeing with my opinion, you could explain, briefly, how scripting can not possibly be the cause, such as the relationship of script to mesh to texture, etc.)

not necessarily. i already knew the scripts could not be the cause. if they were there would be some other indicator that the code was somehow causing it. an exception or assertion would log someplace. i fully test these things to be sure they work.

I'm humbled enough to admit, my earlier testing and results pointed towards scripts, but today has pointed towards another cause.
-That said, your attitude towards the whole issue is disturbing, to say the least. I'm here trying to fix an issue I'm having, and all you can do is stand there and act like your poop don't stink. Heck, maybe it don't, but you could still try to be helpful instead of deny there is an issue...

again, how have i not tried to help? i suggested fixes for anything that might cause the script code to be the problem - suggesting cache rebuilds, re-installing the items. also i am still here trying to uncover the problem. just because my help is not immediately fixing your issue does not mean i am not helping.

I did testing, and posted result...all you did was disagree...HOW ABOUT SOME HELP?
-Try explaining how "texture compression" of Textures colored "Yellow" is any different than those colored "blue"...seriously, I have no idea how "Texture compression" is implemented, or what it affects, or what affects it...a simple summery will do.
--ie, SoCalwb909's "Pacer" cars (blue) compared to SoCalwb909's "AP53" cars (yellow)?

i disagree because you simply pointed at the custom script code without a basis for doing so. i see absolutely no evidence presented anywhere that points to the script being at fault. you should me a specific script exception and i will certainly look at it. i am not saying i never write code with bugs, what i am saying is that i dont publish code that hasn't been tested enough to know it wont cause some undesirable behavior, especially of this severity. you could always have removed the script entirely from the config and see if the cars exhibit the same behavior, just be sure to keep backups.

all textures with a .texture.txt configuration file are DXT compressed into .texture files when an asset is committed. if your hardware (GPU) drivers are having an issue compressing the files i can certainly see where the texture color could make a difference. if you would like more information on how DXT works you can look for it, but i doubt it would be helpful for you here. try what i suggested above by toggling the setting and see if there are any differences.

I would have posted the issue over on the JR site, but can not for the life of me find your Forums, I guess they were done away with when the new site was created..IDK.?
-I initially posted the issue in the TS2010 section, because it was an issue I was having in TS2010, and this Forums format indicates that is were it should have been posted.
--Regardless, that was then, this is now...lets move on, shall we?

however you indicated you desired a response directly from Jointed Rail or myself because you thought the issue was with our content, not TS2010.

our forums are here: http://forums.auran.com/trainz/forumdisplay.php?87-Jointed-Rail