Stay with Trainz my friends,
- Thread starter ocala
- Start date
whecsailorjr
Active member
Have to Agree with you on this one!
Yep,
Though I may gripe about the direction Trainz is going (Once it had a goal of being a Electronic Model Railroad
, ,, Now a railroad simulator:'( )
When compared to others, it is far better than any competitor.
I do think the Comunity and all their help and add ons had quite a bit in helping them that way too:udrool:
Yep,
Though I may gripe about the direction Trainz is going (Once it had a goal of being a Electronic Model Railroad
, ,, Now a railroad simulator:'( )When compared to others, it is far better than any competitor.
I do think the Comunity and all their help and add ons had quite a bit in helping them that way too:udrool:
IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
Yup brand x is a real pile of crud and is basically the toy train game that Trainz started out as.
Thank goodness it matured into a railway\railroad simulator.
IKB.
Thank goodness it matured into a railway\railroad simulator.
IKB.
Well, that's why I'm here. Little history of AI traffic;
MSTS AI trains don't actually "see" signals, they follow a path. When the path sees a red signal it stops, the AI train stops for the end of the path. The AI dispatcher sets the switches according to the path information, in the absence of signals he sets the entire route when the train spawns, if there are signals he sets the switches X number of signals ahead defined by the signal scripts for that route. I could work with that, developed routes and activities for MSTS for six years.
Then came Rail Simulator. First version came with a "Lite" version of the scenario editor, you could make free roam sessions but no AI traffic. Few months later they released the "Developers Tools" which included a full scenario editor, at last we can make AI traffic! WHAT??!! What is this thing, this ain't a game editor, this is a Rube Goldberg contraption and the AI is completely retarded! For crying out loud if I throw a switch an hour before the AI train spawns, he gets hopelessly lost and starts creeping at half a mile per hour, jumps back to the starting portal and repeats it, then the game crashes! Okay, so they "fixed" that in patch mark 1 - by having the AI train lock every single switch on the entire path, automatic and manual, so the player can't change the switch until the AI passes by even if the AI isn't due to spawn for another four hours yet! In other words they kludged around it, and since the developers are perfectly happy simulating British multitrack mainline commuter operations where two trains never need to use the same single track section, they have no intention of ever fixing it.
Railworks LOOKS very realistic, but all it's good for is taking screenshots, realistic operations are hopeless. Trainz has MUCH more intelligent AI with a LOT more versatility, and it's considerably faster and easier to set up complex AI traffic patterns.
MSTS AI trains don't actually "see" signals, they follow a path. When the path sees a red signal it stops, the AI train stops for the end of the path. The AI dispatcher sets the switches according to the path information, in the absence of signals he sets the entire route when the train spawns, if there are signals he sets the switches X number of signals ahead defined by the signal scripts for that route. I could work with that, developed routes and activities for MSTS for six years.
Then came Rail Simulator. First version came with a "Lite" version of the scenario editor, you could make free roam sessions but no AI traffic. Few months later they released the "Developers Tools" which included a full scenario editor, at last we can make AI traffic! WHAT??!! What is this thing, this ain't a game editor, this is a Rube Goldberg contraption and the AI is completely retarded! For crying out loud if I throw a switch an hour before the AI train spawns, he gets hopelessly lost and starts creeping at half a mile per hour, jumps back to the starting portal and repeats it, then the game crashes! Okay, so they "fixed" that in patch mark 1 - by having the AI train lock every single switch on the entire path, automatic and manual, so the player can't change the switch until the AI passes by even if the AI isn't due to spawn for another four hours yet! In other words they kludged around it, and since the developers are perfectly happy simulating British multitrack mainline commuter operations where two trains never need to use the same single track section, they have no intention of ever fixing it.
Railworks LOOKS very realistic, but all it's good for is taking screenshots, realistic operations are hopeless. Trainz has MUCH more intelligent AI with a LOT more versatility, and it's considerably faster and easier to set up complex AI traffic patterns.
jeffmorris
Active member
What about OpenRails? They released the latest beta yesterday and it worked very well with MSTS default content on my computer. I lost interest in RailWorks because it was hard to create new content and routes for it.
I am a simple kind of man in the sense I like things that I am interested in (like trains and trams) to be easy to use and build. Did buy Railworks to have a look at it but binned it. I still have MTS but only because it has a route I am interested in and using as a basis for one of the routes in my present build of the whole of the N.I.R. in Ulster. I also did the whole of Glasgow's former giant tramway - couldn't have dreamed of it in MTS.
Trainz has progressed and I started rather nervously with 04 then to 06 and now footering with TRS09. It gives those wanting more indepth stuff to be kept reasonably happy and non-techy people like me to build routes that are reasonably attractive that we couldn't do in MTS and Railworks. With occasional bouts of ill-health, Trainz has been a joy at such times and also keeps my grey cells functioning. Sometimes I leave it off for a few days then go back and that way I don't give up on large routes as many can by burning themselves out!
Trainz has progressed and I started rather nervously with 04 then to 06 and now footering with TRS09. It gives those wanting more indepth stuff to be kept reasonably happy and non-techy people like me to build routes that are reasonably attractive that we couldn't do in MTS and Railworks. With occasional bouts of ill-health, Trainz has been a joy at such times and also keeps my grey cells functioning. Sometimes I leave it off for a few days then go back and that way I don't give up on large routes as many can by burning themselves out!
Well I'm happily back route building in TS2009, projects for RW on ice at present - just burn out with the same old issues. Now while accepting Auran occasionally launch a money making enterprise they do at least try and improve the core. RS.com just announced a whole load of "Christmas" add-ons so it seems the same old motivation is at work, sell loads of DLC with some vague possibility of future core improvements.
The scenario editor is still no better, can't path two opposing trains on a single track route unless you actually time them at the precise interval at the crossing loop.
Unfortunately even constructive comments get flamed off on UKTS and TS. I remarked gently that the WCML (which I may well yet buy) relies on the same old foliage that has been out for yonks. Nearly got my head bitten off by the RS.com people, "make your own" was the sentiment - well hang on, we're not talking about my route we're looking at yours which you're hoping to sell for £19.99. They haven't looked at the excellent and unique freeware trees produced for TRS by the likes of Jankvis or Dave Drake - thousands to choose from. And don't get me started on terrain texturing, three years in still no copy and paste with every section having to be hand textured.
Trainz ain't perfect but it does seem the best place to sit at present, unless Zusi 3 ever gets released!
The scenario editor is still no better, can't path two opposing trains on a single track route unless you actually time them at the precise interval at the crossing loop.
Unfortunately even constructive comments get flamed off on UKTS and TS. I remarked gently that the WCML (which I may well yet buy) relies on the same old foliage that has been out for yonks. Nearly got my head bitten off by the RS.com people, "make your own" was the sentiment - well hang on, we're not talking about my route we're looking at yours which you're hoping to sell for £19.99. They haven't looked at the excellent and unique freeware trees produced for TRS by the likes of Jankvis or Dave Drake - thousands to choose from. And don't get me started on terrain texturing, three years in still no copy and paste with every section having to be hand textured.
Trainz ain't perfect but it does seem the best place to sit at present, unless Zusi 3 ever gets released!
IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
I am enjoying OpenRails, i have so much MSTS payware and freeware stretching back to june 2001. It's good that it is getting a new lease of life through OR.
Plus OR is aimed at the serious railway\railroad sim user, not the toy train brigade as per RailFail.
Mike.
Well, Open Rails isn't finished yet, so it's hard to say if it will be better or not. Pack 500 loose consist cars into Whitefish yard with a dozen 50 car AI trains running back and forth, MSTS dropped to 3FPS and started spitting "failed to create SMS object" errors. Will ORTS do the same or not? No way to test that at present, the AI traffic logic is only in its basic form and the signals haven't been activated yet.
I remember doing this as well! Did I say stutters? S T U T T E R! until the train left the yard.
Then ended up sitting for hours at a siding because an AI train derailed, or worse almost making it to Shelby only to have an AI train jump the tracks right in front of me effectively killing the session I was playing.
John
Well, it had a lot of other glitches as well. Point is, lot of people getting excited because ORTS promises better appearance and performance, but you really can't tell yet;
Chicago Elevated V4 in MSTS, 11FPS.
Chicago Elevated V4 in ORTS, WOW! 35FPS! ORTS IS GREAT!!!111!!!
Except you don't actually KNOW that, you can't really compare yet since there's no car and truck traffic on the road in ORTS, which is what kills the MSTS framerates in that area on CER4. When ORTS activates the carspawners, possibly that will drop to 11FPS as well.
Chicago Elevated V4 in MSTS, 11FPS.
Chicago Elevated V4 in ORTS, WOW! 35FPS! ORTS IS GREAT!!!111!!!
Except you don't actually KNOW that, you can't really compare yet since there's no car and truck traffic on the road in ORTS, which is what kills the MSTS framerates in that area on CER4. When ORTS activates the carspawners, possibly that will drop to 11FPS as well.
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IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
Give it a chance Jim, OpenMind for OpenRails.
Plus it is free and we won't be asked to spend 12 quid every week on a new loco to pose in piccies.
Mike.
Plus it is free and we won't be asked to spend 12 quid every week on a new loco to pose in piccies.
Mike.
Oh I got an open mind, most of the developers are old friends from the early years of MSTS and I'm actively doing what I can to help them with testing. I'm not saying don't place your bets, it very well MAY be the ultimate trainsim we've all been looking for - but that's in the distant future, it ain't there yet.
Original topic is "stay with Trainz", others are staying with MSTS, why not Railworks?
http://members.uktrainsim.com/index2.php?form_reader=whynotrailworks
That was a year ago, and nothing has changed - the developers and footy fans still dismiss everyone else as a bunch of neanderthal luddites who stay with the old trainsims cuz we're too stupid and lazy to learn anything new. Despite the large number like you and I who tried RS/RW and really gave it an honest chance (2 1/2 YEARS worth!), they still think that and hysterically insist it doesn't have any major flaws in the AI traffic coding.
Another one;
http://forums.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?296022-How-do-we-quot-change-quot-train-in-Railworks
I understand what the guy is trying to do, got a lead engine and a helper on your train, uncouple the engines and drive either one independently. You COULD do that with the original railsim, but it wasn't perfect because sometimes engine 1 would refuse to couple back to engine 2, so you had to change to engine 2 and couple that to engine 1, or one of them would derail.
http://forums.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=267224
So they "fixed" it in patch mark 1 by disabling it completely, now if you couple service 2 to service 1, service 1 is no longer a service and can't be driven independently for the rest of the scenario. TS2010 does that just fine, uncouple the helper and drop it on a siding, use both engines to switch cars from both ends of the train.
Trainz might or might not be the future (fix them ugly switches!) but my opinion Trainz is the present. Railworks simply has too many flaws and limitations to even be classed as a train simulator. Trainz ain't perfect, I was running a session yesterday with AI trains entering a double ended yard to drop off cars on track 8 at 15 minute intervals, first and second did fine, third AI found one switch in the yard ladder set the wrong way and stopped, couldn't figure out how to throw one switch to get into his destination track. For now tho, Trainz is the best available.
Original topic is "stay with Trainz", others are staying with MSTS, why not Railworks?
http://members.uktrainsim.com/index2.php?form_reader=whynotrailworks
That was a year ago, and nothing has changed - the developers and footy fans still dismiss everyone else as a bunch of neanderthal luddites who stay with the old trainsims cuz we're too stupid and lazy to learn anything new. Despite the large number like you and I who tried RS/RW and really gave it an honest chance (2 1/2 YEARS worth!), they still think that and hysterically insist it doesn't have any major flaws in the AI traffic coding.
Another one;
http://forums.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?296022-How-do-we-quot-change-quot-train-in-Railworks
I understand what the guy is trying to do, got a lead engine and a helper on your train, uncouple the engines and drive either one independently. You COULD do that with the original railsim, but it wasn't perfect because sometimes engine 1 would refuse to couple back to engine 2, so you had to change to engine 2 and couple that to engine 1, or one of them would derail.
http://forums.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=267224
So they "fixed" it in patch mark 1 by disabling it completely, now if you couple service 2 to service 1, service 1 is no longer a service and can't be driven independently for the rest of the scenario. TS2010 does that just fine, uncouple the helper and drop it on a siding, use both engines to switch cars from both ends of the train.
Trainz might or might not be the future (fix them ugly switches!) but my opinion Trainz is the present. Railworks simply has too many flaws and limitations to even be classed as a train simulator. Trainz ain't perfect, I was running a session yesterday with AI trains entering a double ended yard to drop off cars on track 8 at 15 minute intervals, first and second did fine, third AI found one switch in the yard ladder set the wrong way and stopped, couldn't figure out how to throw one switch to get into his destination track. For now tho, Trainz is the best available.
IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
James, James, James.................. calm down it's only a vur vound. 
http://www.comparethemeerkat.com/my-tv-ads
RailFail is crud mate you get my vote 120%
As for Trainz it has always been my trainsim of choice, even in the heyday of MSTS, but i used both.
RailBroke was my fleeting brush with insanity and how i was suckered in by the bright lights and glossy new models.
Not anymore the footie fans can have their far from perfect crap, they are welcome to it.
Mike.
http://www.comparethemeerkat.com/my-tv-ads
RailFail is crud mate you get my vote 120%
As for Trainz it has always been my trainsim of choice, even in the heyday of MSTS, but i used both.
RailBroke was my fleeting brush with insanity and how i was suckered in by the bright lights and glossy new models.
Not anymore the footie fans can have their far from perfect crap, they are welcome to it.
Mike.
What brought me to Trainz from MSTS was the ability to easily build my own routes. I tried as I could many times to build with MSTS development tools, and the program crashed on me. I created a few activities that worked quite nicely, but I found the AI trains, or should they be ALI for lack of any intelligence, to be beyond comprehension. The locking of junctions for hours on end, my inability to change junctions because that wasn't part of my path, and the random signal jumping by the AI, which would kill any activity, totally frustrating.
There were numerous other frustrations as well. With one being the coupler breakage, the complete crashes after installing new content if there was one missing dependency, etc.
When Trs2004 came out, the difference was like night and day, and I've been with TRS ever since. This is now going on 6 years!
John
There were numerous other frustrations as well. With one being the coupler breakage, the complete crashes after installing new content if there was one missing dependency, etc.
When Trs2004 came out, the difference was like night and day, and I've been with TRS ever since. This is now going on 6 years!
John
Hi Everybody.
I missed the start of this thread because I was doing other things for a few days. However, reading through the postings I noticed that a number of members commented that opened rails is compatible with the running MSTS content.
My question is, would that be all MSTS content such as routes etc or just engines, carriages and other auxiliary add-ons as I have a huge amount of payware content that I bought when the Microsoft simulator was at its height.
I removed MSTS from my computer after coming over to Trainz convinced I would never use it again. Only last week I was clearing up the office and came across all the old MSTS content and was considering throwing it out. But having read the thread I am now having second thoughts, so could someone enlighten me please.
I have also seen in this thread several references to Footie supporters. As I live in the only country in the world which has real football clubs and the premiership league, is this a derogatory remark against the only real sports fans in the world or is it some remark regarding a train simulator.
As I was just having a quiet drink to celebrate the world's greatest club (Man U) defeating those no hopers from Liverpool this afternoon I knocked over that drink when I saw the references to footie supporters, and its just ruined my evening.
Bill:hehe:
I missed the start of this thread because I was doing other things for a few days. However, reading through the postings I noticed that a number of members commented that opened rails is compatible with the running MSTS content.
My question is, would that be all MSTS content such as routes etc or just engines, carriages and other auxiliary add-ons as I have a huge amount of payware content that I bought when the Microsoft simulator was at its height.
I removed MSTS from my computer after coming over to Trainz convinced I would never use it again. Only last week I was clearing up the office and came across all the old MSTS content and was considering throwing it out. But having read the thread I am now having second thoughts, so could someone enlighten me please.
I have also seen in this thread several references to Footie supporters. As I live in the only country in the world which has real football clubs and the premiership league, is this a derogatory remark against the only real sports fans in the world or is it some remark regarding a train simulator.
As I was just having a quiet drink to celebrate the world's greatest club (Man U) defeating those no hopers from Liverpool this afternoon I knocked over that drink when I saw the references to footie supporters, and its just ruined my evening.
Bill:hehe:
Webmaster at UKtrainsim is a Brit, he's probably the one who coined the term "footy fan";
http://members.uktrainsim.com/index2.php?form_reader=whynotrailworks
I always called them "cheerleaders", but the term was meant as a polite way of describing psychotic fanatic holy warriors who attacked any criticism of a game that deserved a lot more criticism than it ever got. I'm a moderator over at the US www.trainsim.com, and the largest number of flamewars over the last two years have come from the railsim and railworks forums, despite having the least number of participating members. It gets really hysterical, accusations of "conspiracies" to "make Railworks fail", my thinking is that it will either succeed or fail on its own merits, and if it's actually any good why can't it take criticism, why does it need the fanatic defense? There was actually one clown who followed Mike (IKB, "Redcoat1812" over there) into the Auran Trainz forum and hit the alert button to report him for saying "RailFail" - IN THE FORUM FOR TRAINZ, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RAILWORKS! Now THAT is fanaticism, since it's not polite to call them what they really are - Railworks Jihaad Nazis - most call them "footy fans" instead.
As for Open Rails, yeah, it's nowhere near a finished game, but I have run MSTS routes, activities, and trainsets in Open Rails, so there's a lot of backward compatibility at present. Take a look here;
http://forums.trainsim.com/vbts/forumdisplay.php?102-Open-Rails
For more info, and to download and try out the latest "beta" release. "Beta" is a matter of opinion, I would call it more of an alpha proof of concept version, but it's pretty close to beta.
Hmmm. Just occurred to me, possibly you wouldn't appreciate us Yankee Doodles throwing your tea in the harbor while spelling "harbour" wrong (it's a compulsion with us, we can't help throwing tea into harbors :hehe: ), so maybe you'd like this one better;
http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewforum.php?f=322&sid=85126d4f142e193699d0e5780d6f16eb
http://members.uktrainsim.com/index2.php?form_reader=whynotrailworks
I always called them "cheerleaders", but the term was meant as a polite way of describing psychotic fanatic holy warriors who attacked any criticism of a game that deserved a lot more criticism than it ever got. I'm a moderator over at the US www.trainsim.com, and the largest number of flamewars over the last two years have come from the railsim and railworks forums, despite having the least number of participating members. It gets really hysterical, accusations of "conspiracies" to "make Railworks fail", my thinking is that it will either succeed or fail on its own merits, and if it's actually any good why can't it take criticism, why does it need the fanatic defense? There was actually one clown who followed Mike (IKB, "Redcoat1812" over there) into the Auran Trainz forum and hit the alert button to report him for saying "RailFail" - IN THE FORUM FOR TRAINZ, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RAILWORKS! Now THAT is fanaticism, since it's not polite to call them what they really are - Railworks Jihaad Nazis - most call them "footy fans" instead.
As for Open Rails, yeah, it's nowhere near a finished game, but I have run MSTS routes, activities, and trainsets in Open Rails, so there's a lot of backward compatibility at present. Take a look here;
http://forums.trainsim.com/vbts/forumdisplay.php?102-Open-Rails
For more info, and to download and try out the latest "beta" release. "Beta" is a matter of opinion, I would call it more of an alpha proof of concept version, but it's pretty close to beta.
Hmmm. Just occurred to me, possibly you wouldn't appreciate us Yankee Doodles throwing your tea in the harbor while spelling "harbour" wrong (it's a compulsion with us, we can't help throwing tea into harbors :hehe: ), so maybe you'd like this one better;
http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewforum.php?f=322&sid=85126d4f142e193699d0e5780d6f16eb
IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
"Only real sports fans in the world"....trust an englishman to come out with that.................hahahaahahahahaha.
The greatest supporters in the world are the welsh rugby supporters, who follow their team all over the world, win or lose.
Agree with you in regards OR Jim, it is more of an alpha.
It's the whole concept of supporting and running MSTS content that excites me. Not so much where OR is now, but i am still enjoying the ability to run MSTS activities from within OR, all be it with limited functionality.
Anyway anything that undermines the rampant payware culture inherent in RailDross, is fine by me.
I don't mind paying my way and have done using MSTS & Trainz. But there is a limit to how deep anyone's pockets are, in my opinion.
Mike.
The greatest supporters in the world are the welsh rugby supporters, who follow their team all over the world, win or lose.
Agree with you in regards OR Jim, it is more of an alpha.
It's the whole concept of supporting and running MSTS content that excites me. Not so much where OR is now, but i am still enjoying the ability to run MSTS activities from within OR, all be it with limited functionality.
Anyway anything that undermines the rampant payware culture inherent in RailDross, is fine by me.
I don't mind paying my way and have done using MSTS & Trainz. But there is a limit to how deep anyone's pockets are, in my opinion.
Mike.