Some Questions on BR Steam trains

[spiffy101]

Hey everybody,

Due to my computer's recent super-charge (Better graphics, proccession, etc), I am finally able to run Hawes Junction fairly smoothly. Since there is only one true freight locomotive built-in, I downloaded a 14xx, a 44xx, and the Evening Star. I am currently downloading the O4/1 Rod. I added the trains to the mainline session so that I could ferry coal between Hawes and Wharton. I would take the empties up to Wharton, and return, but I ran into one snag. There was no way, without returning to Gardsdale, to turn the 9F around, so I just ran the 9F tender-first to Wharton, and loco first back to Gardsdale. I also attached a brakevan to each end pf the train so that I always had end lights no matter what direction.

Now what my question is if the BR did that in real life, or am I running un-prototypically? If so, how would I run prototypically? Any help would be appreciated.

Spiffy101

 

[Capt_Haddock]

Generally speaking, tender locos run boiler first, apart from anything else it can’t have been very pleasant for the crew to drive a 60 mph behind a great big pile of dusty coal! Therefore most branch lines termini had turntables if they used tender locos or access to a triangle to turn locos.

One of the innervations brought in with some of the BR standard classes was tenders with back plates to allow bi-directional running (see the LMS G2 on the download station).

The loco still had to run round the train so only one guard’s van would have been used. Pushing goods trains at anything other than shunting speeds would be very dangerous, the only exception being the auto-coaches used on the Great Western Railway. These were coaches fitted with a driver’s cab and duplicate controls that enabled a suitable equipped loco (usually Class 14’s) to either push or pull the coach with the driver always at the front of the train. The fireman stayed in the loco cab.

Regards,
[FONT=&quot]Chris[/FONT]

 

[spiffy101]

Thanks. I'm going to have to modd some track-work then.

 

[lewisner]

The ideal locos for the Hawes branch would be the 4MT and the J39.Since the termini of the line are all dead ends the simplest way to modify them would be to create a simple loop, with at least 3 signals on it and a yellow trackmarker, although you could also stable another 9F at Wharton "boiler first" which would overcome the problem, or altenatively install a Turntable there.BTW all BR lines had (and still have ) a system of Route Availability (RA) which gives each Route and Loco/Rolling Stock a number.So, if the Hwes Branch was RA5 and the 9F was RA7, the 9F wouldn"t be able to go there because its RA number exceeded that of the line.A coal mine such as Wharton would normall be served by trains running only in one direction (say Carlisle-Leeds) so the Loco would be facing in the right direction anyway.

 

[spiffy101]

Well, I need to find a way around this then. Well, thanks guys for all your help. I'll probably install a turntable somewhere.

 

[drphlox]

Hey everybody,

Due to my computer's recent super-charge (Better graphics, proccession, etc), I am finally able to run Hawes Junction fairly smoothly. Since there is only one true freight locomotive built-in, I downloaded a 14xx, a 44xx, and the Evening Star. I am currently downloading the O4/1 Rod. I added the trains to the mainline session so that I could ferry coal between Hawes and Wharton. I would take the empties up to Wharton, and return, but I ran into one snag. There was no way, without returning to Gardsdale, to turn the 9F around, so I just ran the 9F tender-first to Wharton, and loco first back to Gardsdale. I also attached a brakevan to each end pf the train so that I always had end lights no matter what direction.

Now what my question is if the BR did that in real life, or am I running un-prototypically? If so, how would I run prototypically? Any help would be appreciated.

Spiffy101

nope, none of these ran on the Settle & Carlisle, 9F's ran on the Lancaster and Carlisle, 14xx and 44xx's on the GWR, one of the LMS's two rivals(the other being the LNER) (O4 ROD's (Railway Operating Department) were LNER/NER/GC engines.

Porper engine for the S&C?
any of the following:
Jubillees
Black 5's (5MT's)
8F's
2P's
4P's
4MT's
4F's

you get payware of these at http://www.trainz-britannia.com/index.html

OR http://www.paulztrainz.myenet.info/inside/inside.htm

Generally speaking, tender locos run boiler first, apart from anything else it can’t have been very pleasant for the crew to drive a 60 mph behind a great big pile of dusty coal! Therefore most branch lines termini had turntables if they used tender locos or access to a triangle to turn locos.

One of the innervations brought in with some of the BR standard classes was tenders with back plates to allow bi-directional running (see the LMS G2 on the download station).

The loco still had to run round the train so only one guard’s van would have been used. Pushing goods trains at anything other than shunting speeds would be very dangerous, the only exception being the auto-coaches used on the Great Western Railway. These were coaches fitted with a driver’s cab and duplicate controls that enabled a suitable equipped loco (usually Class 14’s) to either push or pull the coach with the driver always at the front of the train. The fireman stayed in the loco cab.

Regards,
[FONT=&quot]Chris[/FONT]

Ayr Shed apparently ran their coal train locos with the boiler facing into the prevailing wind.

The ideal locos for the Hawes branch would be the 4MT and the J39.Since the termini of the line are all dead ends the simplest way to modify them would be to create a simple loop, with at least 3 signals on it and a yellow trackmarker, although you could also stable another 9F at Wharton "boiler first" which would overcome the problem, or altenatively install a Turntable there.BTW all BR lines had (and still have ) a system of Route Availability (RA) which gives each Route and Loco/Rolling Stock a number.So, if the Hwes Branch was RA5 and the 9F was RA7, the 9F wouldn"t be able to go there because its RA number exceeded that of the line.A coal mine such as Wharton would normall be served by trains running only in one direction (say Carlisle-Leeds) so the Loco would be facing in the right direction anyway.

You do need brake vans at both ends of a coal train especially for any time up to the late 60's any train that was unfitted or had any air braked wagon/carriage as part of the train usually had a brake van on both ends.

coal/stone/ballast wagons only had Hand brakes on each wagon and required a brake van on both ends and were limited in speed that the entire train could travel at.

Well, I need to find a way around this then. Well, thanks guys for all your help. I'll probably install a turntable somewhere.

no need to - use the one at garsdale.

drphlox

 

[2995Valliant]

I can't say I've ever seen sufficient photographic evidence to back up the observation that partially fitted or unfitted trains ran with a brake van at each end (and that would be vacuum, not air brake BTW).

A quick flick through a couple of books on the S&D and the GC clearly shows one brake van per train. The famous "Windcutters" on the GC between Annesley and Woodford Halse, offically termed "Modified Class F" were timed to travel at 50mph plus - unfitted, and every photo I have shows only a brake van on the rear of the train.

A brake van at the front would be of little use generally as I understand it - it is an important function of the brake van to keep tension on the couplings between the wagons, and generally the loco will have more brake force than the brake van anyway.

Capt Haddock - I think you mean 48xx/14xx 0-4-2's, not Class 14's - which were a Type 1 diesel and definitely not auto fitted!

Anthony

 

[spiffy101]

Well, I have some plans to add a turntable at Hawes and Wharton to solve my loco direction problem, and I guess I'm to lazy to switch the brakevans around. Problems solved. Thanks guys.

 

[AndrewH]

...Since there is only one true freight locomotive built-in.....

The 4F is a goods engine. In the case of colliery trip working, such as between Hawes and Wharton it would have been the better engine to use, a 9F would have been total overkill.

.....nope, none of these ran on the Settle & Carlisle, 9F's ran on the Lancaster and Carlisle, 14xx and 44xx's on the GWR, one of the LMS's two rivals(the other being the LNER) (O4 ROD's (Railway Operating Department) were LNER/NER/GC engines....

9Fs were common on the S&C from about 1960 when some were transferred to Carlisle Kingmoor mpd. They worked through coal trains from Yorkshire and the Long Meg anhydrite trains to Widnes.

..... Proper engine for the S&C?
any of the following:
Jubilees
Black 5's (5MT's)
8F's
2P's
4P's
4MT's
4F's....

To this list you can add the 9F, WD 2-8-0s, Crab 2-6-0s, Royal Scots, Britannias, A3s, 3Fs and Ivatt 2MT 2-6-2Ts. Under 4MT there were the Fowler, Stanier and Fairburn versions of the 2-6-4T,the Ivatt 2-6-0 and the BR 4-6-0. There was even an occasional visit from a Clan Pacific.

.....You do need brake vans at both ends of a coal train especially for any time up to the late 60's any train that was unfitted or had any air braked wagon/carriage as part of the train usually had a brake van on both ends.

coal/stone/ballast wagons only had Hand brakes on each wagon and required a brake van on both ends and were limited in speed that the entire train could travel at......

As 2995Valiant has already responded, this was not necessary or usual. Brake vans were incorporated at each end of a train, whether fitted or unfitted, only where a reversal would occur "en route", frequently with a change of engines.

 

[magickmaker]

even in the case of some tank engines, it was common to run them smokebox (boiler) front. Take the Fairford Branch for example. Up until its final passenger days, it ran a host of Pannier tank locomotives. In nearly every case, the locomotives would be rotated on a turntable at Fairford for the return trip.
________
EXTREME VAPORIZER REVIEW

 

[spiffy101]

In response to your recomendations on motive-power, thanks for the advice, but i guess I failed to mention I'm modding the railway into a functional scenic line, so some motibve power may be out of place.

 

[WileeCoyote]

...snip...

the only exception being the auto-coaches used on the Great Western Railway. These were coaches fitted with a driver’s cab and duplicate controls that enabled a suitable equipped loco (usually Class 14’s) to either push or pull the coach with the driver always at the front of the train. The fireman stayed in the loco cab.

Regards,
[FONT=&quot]Chris[/FONT]

Care to provide some pictures of said driving coach? I've never heard of this being done with steam locomotives.

WileeCoyote

 

[AndrewH]

Care to provide some pictures of said driving coach? I've never heard of this being done with steam locomotives.

WileeCoyote

Care to say what type of photo you want? External pictures of Auto trains are easy, ones showing the driver controls inside the coach are rare.

 

[magickmaker]

The autocoaches were some strange beasts. However it's worth noting that they didn't start out as "push pull" type service.

The first autocoaches were actually a kind of steam rail motor unit. In the driver's cabin, they had a small vertical boiler that drove the first bogey by way of a chain link system. It worked...ok, but not much better than that. After a while, the boiler was removed and the units rigged to work with 0-4-2 Metro tank locomotives. Typically they were run in a "coach locomotive coach" pattern, though "Coach locomotive" was also common. (depended on the area.)

When running 'autocoach first', the regulator is operated by a linkage to a rotating shaft running the length of the locomotive, passing below the cab floor. This engages (via a telescopic coupling) with another shaft running the full length below the floor of the autocoach. This shaft is turned by a second regulator lever in the cab of the autocoach. The Driver can operate the regulator, brakes and whistle from the far end of the autocoach; the Fireman remains on the locomotive and (in addition to firing) also controls the valve gear settings. The Driver can also warn of approach using a large mechanical gong, prominently mounted high on the cab end of the autocoach, which is operated by stamping on a pedal on the floor of the cab. The Driver, Guard and Fireman communicate with each other by an electric bell system.
________
How To Roll A Joint

 

[Capt_Haddock]

WileeCoyote
The autocoach and 14xx loco are on the download station, or a quick google search will through up plenty of pictures of the real thing.

These units were used on my local line (GWR Gloucester to Swindon) from the 1920's to the late 1960's and were very successful.

Sorry for late reply, only just picked up this thread again.

Chris