Single Track Operations

[cdgtcc]

So Im currently building a route - 2 Terminal stations on either end - about 19 miles of track between them. Portals feeding the main lines from either end. Is is a 2 line route (1 in either direction)

My Situation is this. Im designing a section, where the 2 lines converge to 1, for about a mile or so. Im trying to figure out how to get this all working with the AI. The convergence happens right after the first northern most station. Whats happening is the portal feeds the first station, it makes its stop, starts moving, hits the first signal which is just before where the mainline converges, and stops at a red signal. It seems the switches are throwing themselves for the train coming from the southernmost part of the route...which happens to be over 10 miles away at the time, and holding the train just outside the station for at least over 20 minutes. Obviously this isnt practical...

Anyone have any tips on how to set this up properly? Signal placement, track priority, ect? Possibly an example route I can download/view to see how it all goes together? Thanks in advance - this forum always helps me get my bugs sorted out!

 

[Dermmy]

You need more signals!

I assume at the moment you have signals protecting the approach to the single-line section and not much else.

If your double tracks are set up for pretty much one-way traffic on each then just stick signals along the main every couple of miles, that way trains wont attempt to control the switch to the single-line section till they are much closer to the junctions.

If your double main is set up for bi-directional running on both tracks it is a bit trickier, I'd use direction markers to enforce right (or left) hand running for the last couple of miles before the single track.

I have both methods covered in two (unfortunately large) routes. East Kentucky 3 has two single track sections between long lengths of right-hand-running double track. Clovis2 has two single line sections between long lengths of bi-directional double track. In both cases the AI won't grab the single track junction till it is right at it...

Andy

 

[Jayturf]

use dummy junctions before the convergence. Put in a couple invisible junctions right before the tracks go to single on the incoming tracks. That way the AI will try and control those useless junctions and not the ones on the single track.

 

[Euphod]

I have always been aware of the limitations of the Trainz AI, Okay, well maybe after 2004 was released! Trainz signaling cannot be prototypical unless you look forward to roasting some marshmallows over your case.
I only signal line that are about to converge from two into one, and I only signal one of them. One train will stop, and the other will go through.

I have made sessions for Regional Passenger Transit (RPT) that have involved as many as fourteen consists, that can run for hours without a conflict. On my home version, I added portals on both ends, and still the signals held traffic as they should.

Best of luck on your quest!

 

[philskene]

cdgtcc --

If you want AI to work you need to design both the route and signals around its quirks.

If I understand correctly, you are trying to operate bi-directional AI over a single section of track?

It is a bit tricky but can be done. I'd suggest downloading my "Krashnburne" route and one of the sessions. In essence Krashnburne is a single track route with crossing loops for AI trainz running in opposite directions from portals at the ends of the route. There is also provision for a player train to interact with the AI.

Look at the signalling and how the switches are set up.

Tell me if this helps. And good luck.

Phil

 

[Ben1337]

Using rules

You know... I have made this option work where you have 3 tracks, the 2 outer ones are direction, but the centre is bi-directional for express trains.

it was kind of layed out like

You should know what they are, the red -> (red arrows) are signals, the way they're pointing is pointing with the direction of the train (so the arrows are pointing with the direction of travel), the arrows are always on the LEFT side of the track.

The yellow -> (yellow arrows) are the track direction markers.

The Green + (Green +) are the triggers.

Track junction positions are as predictable as ever.

The track are the - (black lines).

So... this works with rules and changing variables.

The rules you will need are some built-in ones and kuid:[FONT=Verdana, Arial]122381:10015:1 [/FONT]off the DLS.

So, the rules act like this in a step by step language:

1. A rule is used to check if any train passes over the trigger.
2. Once that completes, it checks for the junction position (the junction has to be set before the train crosses the trigger using a track mark). if the junction is set to the centre track, the following will be completed:

1. The next rule to execute will be a chrck vvariable, which checks if the centre track is free.(the variable can be anything you like, I will call this "middle track occupied"), if it's at 0, then the following applies:
2. The junctions are set for the new train, some junction changes are locked so that other trains trying to access the centre track won't be able to change them, but the tracks linking the outer line to the track that joins to the centre line and to an outer line aren't locked, so they can be ahcnged by another train, this execution also changes the variable "middle track occupied" variable to 1.
3. This change makes the enterance signal go to "automatic", without any or very little interuption, depending on the track occupancy.
4. of course, after that's all done, the train hits an exit trigger, which resets everything back to "unlocked" and "0" ready for the next train.

I hope this is understandible.

P.S. I think this also works with players as well.

P.P.S. I think if you alter this a little bit, you could make it work like a true single line.

 

[cdgtcc]

Wow thanks for all the help! Ill be trying to implement these now as I have some free time to work on the route.

Ben - Nice work - and very detailed. Ill play around with triggers as well using your ideas and see if I can get this all going!

 

[cdgtcc]

cdgtcc --

If you want AI to work you need to design both the route and signals around its quirks.

If I understand correctly, you are trying to operate bi-directional AI over a single section of track?

It is a bit tricky but can be done. I'd suggest downloading my "Krashnburne" route and one of the sessions. In essence Krashnburne is a single track route with crossing loops for AI trainz running in opposite directions from portals at the ends of the route. There is also provision for a player train to interact with the AI.

Look at the signalling and how the switches are set up.

Tell me if this helps. And good luck.

Phil

I downloaded the routes and sessions, however I have 2 unknown dependency's

Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:4800>
Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:4801>

 

[Ben1337]

Wow thanks for all the help! Ill be trying to implement these now as I have some free time to work on the route.

Ben - Nice work - and very detailed. Ill play around with triggers as well using your ideas and see if I can get this all going!

yeah, I had a previous thread made about this topic, I got a reply suggessting SCS2006, I found out that it was all stand-alone (meaning that you can't use it with other rules), so I didin't use it, I actually found out if you actually have the triggers early enough, the train passes through almost non-stop, even at 80 to 90MPH

P.S. this experement was done on rosworth vale, and it was a sucsess.

 

[philskene]

Are you sure about those dependencies?

cdgtcc --

"I downloaded the routes and sessions, however I have 2 unknown dependency's

Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:4800>
Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:4801>"

Wot!~? You sure about that?

Can't be for the route 'caue all the dependencies are either built into TS2010 or on the DLS.

Sure it isn't one of the sessions? In the description under the thumbnail does it give a link?

Phil

 

[cdgtcc]

cdgtcc --

"I downloaded the routes and sessions, however I have 2 unknown dependency's

Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:4800>
Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:4801>"

Wot!~? You sure about that?

Can't be for the route 'caue all the dependencies are either built into TS2010 or on the DLS.

Sure it isn't one of the sessions? In the description under the thumbnail does it give a link?

Phil

I get this under Sessions 4, 5 & 7. Those are the unknown deps from Session4, the other 2 sessions are missing different ones.

 

[cdgtcc]

Good news! With the "dummy" switch (Made from invisible track) - I now have an operating railway. It seems because there were no other switches, vs the northern side having one switch closest to it, that the southernmost train was taking priority, even though it was so far away. So for now, I have trains running, stopping at the signals when appropriate, and then moving on.

So now for the scenery... This route is based off of the Port Washington branch of the LIRR. So far, using Google earth, I have as accurately as I can, laid the roughly 14-15 miles of track from Port Washington to Woodside. Im not sure if I will take it all the way to Penn station...as Im not sure what limitations the game will hold for a 20+ track underground station....although Im open to ideas if something like that would work...

Side note: Im not sure what those ASB triggers are used for in Krashnburne...One of them I found controlling signals on some random track not connected to anything.

 

[philskene]

PLEASE read the TEXT!~!

From the text under the thumbnail:

Session 4:

"The session requires the steam locomotive from
http://rapidshare.com/files/336061730/Loco_US_BenNealBaldwins_v3.zip.html
The three Baldwins are error free in TS2010. I suggest driving in Cab Mode. Take care when opening the regulator (throttle). Opening too quickly results in stalling"
​

Session 5:

"The session requires the Lowmac freight car from
http://www.settleandcarlisle.co.uk/
Go to Downloads – Content/Additional wagons/BR 20T Lowmac/Download"
​

Session 7:

"The 9F and tender can be downloaded from
http://rapidshare.com/files/419140023/Euro_Loco_BR_9F_TS2010.zip.html"
​

Session 8:

"The session requires the Beyer-Garratt steam locomotive from
http://rapidshare.com/files/428051310/AU_Loco_SAR_400class_Garratt_DLS_Mods.cdp
The locomotive is error free in TS2010. I suggest driving in Cab Mode. Take care when opening the regulator (throttle). Opening too quickly results in stalling."
​

The remaining sessions use built-in rolling stock.

There is one additional session that is not on the DLS. See here:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=66590

Tell me if this gets you up and running.

Phil

 

[philskene]

Only if you mix player and AI

"Side note: Im not sure what those ASB triggers are used for in Krashnburne...One of them I found controlling signals on some random track not connected to anything."

For the player train.

The player enters a single track section. Meanwhile an AI train coming in the opposite direction starts to transit the crossing loop that the player is heading towards. When the AI gets to the end of the loop it passes the track marker and sets and locks the switch immediately in front of it for its own route. But it cannot proceed any further because of the player coming the opposite way in the single track section.

The player then tries to enter the free track at loop but finds the switch locked towards the AI train. The player cannot proceed any further because of the AI blocking the path. Hmm - what now? Reverse all the way back to the previous loop and let the AI pass there? But that might be difficult if there is also an AI behind the player.

However, with the ASB triggers, once the player has entered the single track section and passed the ASB control box, the AI coming in the opposite direction is stopped in the loop by a red signal before it reaches the track marker that allows it to set the route ahead. So it does not set and lock the switch before it.

The player can then enter the loop, the AI gets a green signal, proceeds to the marker, sets its route and proceeds into the single track section.

If you are using only AI trainz you don't need the ASB. If, like me, you want to mix AI and player, you might need to consider it.

Phil

 

[cdgtcc]

"Side note: Im not sure what those ASB triggers are used for in Krashnburne...One of them I found controlling signals on some random track not connected to anything."

For the player train.

The player enters a single track section. Meanwhile an AI train coming in the opposite direction starts to transit the crossing loop that the player is heading towards. When the AI gets to the end of the loop it passes the track marker and sets and locks the switch immediately in front of it for its own route. But it cannot proceed any further because of the player coming the opposite way in the single track section.

The player then tries to enter the free track at loop but finds the switch locked towards the AI train. The player cannot proceed any further because of the AI blocking the path. Hmm - what now? Reverse all the way back to the previous loop and let the AI pass there? But that might be difficult if there is also an AI behind the player.

However, with the ASB triggers, once the player has entered the single track section and passed the ASB control box, the AI coming in the opposite direction is stopped in the loop by a red signal before it reaches the track marker that allows it to set the route ahead. So it does not set and lock the switch before it.

The player can then enter the loop, the AI gets a green signal, proceeds to the marker, sets its route and proceeds into the single track section.

If you are using only AI trainz you don't need the ASB. If, like me, you want to mix AI and player, you might need to consider it.

Phil

Sounds like your the man to talk to about those! I messed around with them but I got confused on how to implement them on my route for what I want to do. From what your saying sounds like Ill need them. I will be running AI and player controlled trains on this route so this will be something Ill need to consider..

I have no idea how I would need to set the triggers to make that work properly. Is there an easy way to demonstrate that? The Krashnburne seems a little chaotic to figure it out.

 

[philskene]

I was hoping that you would not ask

"I have no idea how I would need to set the triggers to make that work properly."

I began by experimenting with ASB Crossover Controller and Triggers with a simple level crossing to work out how it could be applied to a single track section with trains running in opposite directions - because, basically, that's all it is.

"Is there an easy way to demonstrate that?"

Hmm. "Easy" - not exactly. But try this:

First the naming of parts:
Go into Session/Edit to see all the components.
A player train heading along a single track section encounters the Control Box, Blue Trigger 1, Blue Trigger 2, Blue Trigger 3, Blue Trigger 4, and the facing switch into the next loop.
An AI train moving through one of the loops encounters a Dwarf Signal, Gold Trigger 1, Signal 1, Gold Trigger 2, Signal 2, a Track Marker, Signal 3 and the trailing switch leading to the single line.
Signals 2 and 3 and the Track Marker are there to be used by the AI to set the route to the next track marker, locking the switches in the process.
Hidden behind one of the portals is a battery of signals. These are needed by the Control Box to function but are not necessary for train control.

How it works:
A player train running down the single line hits Blue 1 making the Control Box set Signal 1 to red.
If an AI train is heading through the loop it will stop at Signal 1. This is before the Track Marker so the route to the next loop is not set and the player train will have control of the switches.
When the player train passes Blue 3 it releases Signal 1 and clears the Control Box control of signals.
Gold 1, which has been activated by the presence of the AI train, clears Signal 1 and the AI train proceeds past Gold 2, which clears the Control Box control, and on to the Track Marker which sets the route and switches for the AI train to proceed to the next loop.
Blue 2 and 4 are for trains heading in the opposite direction.
Blue 2 sets Signal 1 to red, Blue 3 releases it. Other trains can thus follow immediately behind a train heading in this direction.
_____

Yes, it's all a little bit complicated. I live in the eternal hope that someone will come up with an easier solution using what we already have, or a set of rules with a signal system that will provide the same functionality but without the complexity of all the triggers.

Phil

 

[cdgtcc]

"I have no idea how I would need to set the triggers to make that work properly."

I began by experimenting with ASB Crossover Controller and Triggers with a simple level crossing to work out how it could be applied to a single track section with trains running in opposite directions - because, basically, that's all it is.

"Is there an easy way to demonstrate that?"

Hmm. "Easy" - not exactly. But try this:

First the naming of parts:
Go into Session/Edit to see all the components.
A player train heading along a single track section encounters the Control Box, Blue Trigger 1, Blue Trigger 2, Blue Trigger 3, Blue Trigger 4, and the facing switch into the next loop.
An AI train moving through one of the loops encounters a Dwarf Signal, Gold Trigger 1, Signal 1, Gold Trigger 2, Signal 2, a Track Marker, Signal 3 and the trailing switch leading to the single line.
Signals 2 and 3 and the Track Marker are there to be used by the AI to set the route to the next track marker, locking the switches in the process.
Hidden behind one of the portals is a battery of signals. These are needed by the Control Box to function but are not necessary for train control.

How it works:
A player train running down the single line hits Blue 1 making the Control Box set Signal 1 to red.
If an AI train is heading through the loop it will stop at Signal 1. This is before the Track Marker so the route to the next loop is not set and the player train will have control of the switches.
When the player train passes Blue 3 it releases Signal 1 and clears the Control Box control of signals.
Gold 1, which has been activated by the presence of the AI train, clears Signal 1 and the AI train proceeds past Gold 2, which clears the Control Box control, and on to the Track Marker which sets the route and switches for the AI train to proceed to the next loop.
Blue 2 and 4 are for trains heading in the opposite direction.
Blue 2 sets Signal 1 to red, Blue 3 releases it. Other trains can thus follow immediately behind a train heading in this direction.
_____

Yes, it's all a little bit complicated. I live in the eternal hope that someone will come up with an easier solution using what we already have, or a set of rules with a signal system that will provide the same functionality but without the complexity of all the triggers.

Phil

I understand the track marks now! Makes perfect sense - it would eliminate the need for the invisible track junction i put in. Ill play with it tonight as I think I have the idea of how to implement this. Except the one think I get lost on is the extra signals on the dummy track... If the triggers are controlling signals that aren't doing anything, how does it help the situation? I think thats all Im confused on at this point.

 

[cdgtcc]

Definitely had a eureka moment with this...Using these triggers I changed my train scheduling. I can run these trains EXTREMELY close together, without ANY flaws. I cant thank everyone enough for their input in helping me with this. Now on to finish designing everything!

 

[philskene]

Think of it as a level crossing controller

"Except the one think I get lost on is the extra signals on the dummy track ... ."

Just think of the control box as a level crossing controller. One set of triggers on the main line controls the approach signal on the crossing line, the other set of triggers on the crossing line controls the approach signal on the main line.

But in this particular application we only actually need to control one of the lines, even though the control box has to be configured with two signals to control. So one set of triggers controls the signal at the end of the loop that allows access to the single track section. The other set of triggers controls a signal that is not needed, so I shunted it out of view on the dummy track.

Have you tired one of the Krashnburne sessions? I actually find it fascinating to use the free roaming 4-key view and watch the AI trainz working themselves through the loops and single track sections, stopping in the loops as required to give way to an oncoming train. Then, of course, go out and mix with the AI using the player train and see what happens.

Sorry, but I should have also given you this link a while ago:

http://www.boatztrainz.co.uk/

It might help you configure the control box.

Phil

 

[cdgtcc]

"Except the one think I get lost on is the extra signals on the dummy track ... ."

Just think of the control box as a level crossing controller. One set of triggers on the main line controls the approach signal on the crossing line, the other set of triggers on the crossing line controls the approach signal on the main line.

But in this particular application we only actually need to control one of the lines, even though the control box has to be configured with two signals to control. So one set of triggers controls the signal at the end of the loop that allows access to the single track section. The other set of triggers controls a signal that is not needed, so I shunted it out of view on the dummy track.

Have you tired one of the Krashnburne sessions? I actually find it fascinating to use the free roaming 4-key view and watch the AI trainz working themselves through the loops and single track sections, stopping in the loops as required to give way to an oncoming train. Then, of course, go out and mix with the AI using the player train and see what happens.

Sorry, but I should have also given you this link a while ago:

http://www.boatztrainz.co.uk/

It might help you configure the control box.

Phil

I see! I actually found that link from the assets themselves. My route works flawlessly now btw! I understand now why they're setup that way in Krashnburne - however I think I have the same thing on my own route, but am actually using those extra signals (whether needed or not).

Basically I have trains leaving the terminus - that train triggers the main line, which locks the exiting signal as well as that far end covergence signal (Heading away from the terminus) green, while at the same time locks the far end convergence (This was heading towards the terminus) red, just before the trackmark to prevent it taking the switch. Whether or not its necessary that way is another thing. From what I understand, locking the main line green and holding the switch should do the same thing. Either way, it works great! I wish I had these years ago when I designed a route that had a diamond crossing....