Signalling dilemma - Help!

[Driver_Col]

TRS2004 - British Railways layout:

I have a situation where a single branch line (running North / South) spreads to two tracks in order to accommodate a passenger station. Basically the junction is a letter "Y" shape. North bound trains will take one platform, and Southbound trains will take the other platform. Trains in both directions will therefore take a Left branch to enter the station.

Scenario: A Southbound train has left the station and cleared the next few sections/blocks of track and the signalman has not changed any points since that train left.

A Northbound train is now approaching the signal in advance of the points (which are still connecting with the Southbound tracks).

Question: How do I get this signal to stay red under these circumstances?

I haved played around with Direction markers, moved point motors, relayed track in opposite direction, moved signals and added additional signalling .........but I have a very stubborn signal that insists on my Northbound train entering the Southbound platform!

Ideas?

Many thx. Colin.

 

[lewisner]

Have you put Yellow Track Direction Markers on each of the tracks in the station to define the track direction? Do you have both sets of Points set to lie "Normal" for one line or the other?A screeny would help..

 

[BLACKWATCH]

Don't have an answer myself, but ..................
In real life, the train would not meet a red signal unless the platform was still occupied, if the platform is empty, then the signalman would have set the points and cleared the signal before the train arrived at the junction.
I hope someone with more knowledge can help. (not been a route builder for long myself.)

 

[Driver_Col]

Have you put Yellow Track Direction Markers on each of the tracks in the station to define the track direction? Do you have both sets of Points set to lie "Normal" for one line or the other?A screeny would help..

Screenprint available....... but where is the "attach" functionality here?

Colin.

 

[lewisner]

How do you mean attach? If you mean how do you post screenies, its contained in a "sticky" at the start of Screenshots.

 

[Driver_Col]

Signalling issue

 

[Vern]

Not sure if this helps and it was alluded to in one of the replies above, in Surveyor you need to set the points in the "normal" direction you want trains passing over in the facing direction to take. So far as I can tell with crossing loops on single track routes the AI should return the point to the normal lie after a NP train has used them in reverse for a trailing move.

 

[mcjaco]

For prototype's sake, you should remove junctions 1101 and 1102. They don't really serve a purpose. That whole siding/run around track wouldn't be laid by a railroad.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Driver_Col]

For prototype's sake, you should remove junctions 1101 and 1102. They don't really serve a purpose. That whole siding/run around track wouldn't be laid by a railroad.

Just my 2 cents.

My understanding is that BR practise, unlike North American, is to dedicate tracks to a given direction wherever possible. That arrangement at the entrance to the sidings allows a Southbound train leaving the sidings to immediately access the Southbound tracks without using the Northbound tracks.

Just thought you might be interested.

Colin.

 

[Driver_Col]

Hi Vern

Your reply appreciated but my scenario was not even factoring in an AI. It was simply me in DCC (e.g.) mode and coming up to a signal which should be red based on the fact that the points were directing my Northbound train onto Southbound tracks.

Any other thoughts? Perhaps Auran signalling cannot block access unless either a point is set wrong (= derailment), or the track is occupied?

Thx again. Colin.

 

[nicky9499]

Try removing all other junctions until you're left with the singel track mainline and the two platform tracks. Try that and see if it works. I realised that the simpler the route/session, AI drivers are less likely to mess up. If it works after this, then the turnouts leading to the sidings are disrupting the signals. If you really don't actually need them, place them very close to the track but dont connect it to the mainline. I've never had an issue with signals when driving a train myself. And if all else fails, use the USA signals; they always work. (02 for turnouts, 04 for anything else. 03 and 05 are advance signals.)

Note: 04 (normal, straight-ahead signals) get confused when you place them in front of a turnout because it doesn't know which track should it display an aspect for.

 

[lewisner]

We can"t see the rest of the layout but I would be tempted to make access to the goods yard by means of a headshunt.However, given the layout you have there, you should remove the Home Semaphore near the engine and move the left hand branch signal to the site of the home semaphore.Then, place an Invisible Signal in the the entrance to the goods yard so that the Left Branch signal will indicate correctly.Having said that, Driver Col is absolutely right in saying that the junction should be altered; access to the goods yard should only be by means of a "set back" movement from the right hand line.Your tracks would also work and look better if you move them closer so that the edges of the ballast touch each other.

 

[Driver_Col]

Lots of ideas to dwell on here ............ many thanks for all suggestions. Now I have some thinking to do (painful thought!).

Colin.

 

[mcjaco]

My understanding is that BR practise, unlike North American, is to dedicate tracks to a given direction wherever possible. That arrangement at the entrance to the sidings allows a Southbound train leaving the sidings to immediately access the Southbound tracks without using the Northbound tracks.

Just thought you might be interested.

Colin.

Oh OK. Doesn't make sense, unless a train needs to get around a one car train, but if that's the way they do things!

 

[clockwork_orange]

Am I understanding the problem correctly: You don't want the first signal to show green if the points are set to the southbound track?

If that is the case, there is a trick. You will need the "Trigger Multiple Signals" rule (KUID2:116387:26:1). You will also need to give that first signal a name (or just a short ID code actually).
Place a trigger on the southbound track, close to junction 1363 (make sure it is definitely on the SB track). Give that trigger a name, and set it's radius up as far as possible (I forget what the maximum value is).
Now add the rule mentioned above. Tell it to set that signal to danger whenever the trigger is occupied.
Unless the signal can be seen from miles away, the train will have entered the trigger radius before you see the signal, therefore it will appear to be red. If the points are already set correctly, the trigger will not "see" the train at all, and the signal will be green.

I hope this is understandable (it's about 1:30 am here, I should actually be in bed), and that it is what you are looking for.
Oh, I will also say that if the train is already within the trigger radius when you first go into "drive" mode, it will appear to not work (this fooled me initially). However, switch the points back and forth and it will sort itself out.

 

[Driver_Col]

Oh OK. Doesn't make sense, unless a train needs to get around a one car train, but if that's the way they do things!

As you were interested in this scenario, I thought you like some additional general interest information:

In British Railways operations, it was the Passenger trains that "ruled" and freight was worked around them. Given the size of Britain, the population within that relatively small area, and the history of railways in Britain, the passenger traffic has always been pretty dense and therefore requiring very tight scheduling. Add to that "mix" a huge number of high speed (60mph average in the 1950's) trains and you can understand why tracks are dedicated to a particular direction.

As a point of accuracy, I have used the past tense because my experience is 1950's and 1960's. However, given that they now run regular 125mph trains, there is no way that they could "mix things up" like they do here (Canada)!

Regards. Colin.

 

[Driver_Col]

Thanks CO........... will have a play with it!

Regards. Colin.

 

[mcjaco]

Thanks for the info! I'm interested in seeng how you figure out the signaling problem, and what caused it.

 

[nismit]

The usual, the advanced and the tricky ways to do it

Posting Deleted.

 

[Driver_Col]

Am I understanding the problem correctly: You don't want the first signal to show green if the points are set to the southbound track?

Hi CO - Perfect understanding and after cursory testing ...... amazing! I have to test with multiple locos in various places to ensure no conflicts but the rules (my first time using) appear very precise so do not expect problems.

One minor issue though ......... the signal name is visible in Driver mode and does not disappear with F5 or when the points directional arrows are hidden. Do you know any way of hiding the signal names?

Many thanks for you solution ...... take the rest of the day off!



Colin