Severe Shortage Of Train Drivers ( Engineers)

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
It is being reported by the BBC News that one in ten trains in the UK are now being cancelled due to a shortage of drivers and conductors with the situation getting steadily worse. The train operating companies are also reporting that the average age of a driver has been steadily increasing in recent years with many of the long serving staff that they are at present relying on so heavily rapidly approaching retirement age.

Huge efforts have been made in recent years to attract new train crew or upgrade existing employees to become drivers or conductors but little interest seems to be found despite the foregoing efforts. Train drivers and conductors are well paid now in the UK, therefore the salary does not seem to be the problem. First Great Western are reporting that those that are tempted to take on the Year long training to become drivers often leave the industry within a year or two of qualifying.

Many of us who are now classed as the older generation had dreams of being a train driver when we were kids, so what has happened that today's children and youths do not have those dreams especially as within today's generation any such dreams can so easily be fulfilled.

The above shortage of rail drivers and conductors is mirrored in the bus and coach industry which is also finding a severe shortage of drivers and even people willing to train. Worst of all sections affected by driver skills shortages is the British road transport industry (trucking) where it is now being reported that in excess of over sixty thousand heavy goods vehicle drivers (7 to 44 ton grades) have left the industry in the last few years and replacements just cannot be found.

So, why does no one wish to become a train driver these days or even a bus or truck driver. The foregoing are people with skills that no country can do without, so a solution has to be found.

So, if you want to be a train driver ( engineer) the UK will seemingly welcome you with open arms.
Bill

 

[BLACKWATCH]

One possible reason is that most kids are pushed to go to university, they then look at the 'easygoing party life' on student
grants (free money some think), that are presented on the tv.

The ones that do obtain a degree (media studies being one of the most popular), then think they are just too good to be a
lowly train - lorry - bus driver.

The ones who leave school as soon as they can, probably do so because they don't have the capacity to learn, what a driver needs to.
Some (and the numbers increase every year) leave with barely enough capacity to spell their own name & can't add up more
than 2 numbers at a time, even with their socks off.

 

[pfx]

It's exactly the opposite over here. If you want to be a train driver, best to move over to GB. The last time a recruitment drive was on for train crew (3 years ago now) I made it onto the reserve list from which only 5 people were taken on in 2 years, at which point the list expired. As I'm not prepared to move back over to GB, I sought out alternative employment and satisfy my desire to work on the railway at the local preserved line.

Perhaps if pay and conditions weren't so rubbish for bus and truck drivers, it may be easier to recruit? That was one alternative I looked at but decided the costs to get trained and maintain CPC etc, were more than I was prepared to pay.

 

[nexusdj]

Train operating companies are only prepared to train up folks from off the street as train drivers as a last resort . The costs of training from scratch these days are phenomenal and even though there are stringent tests in place to attempt to weed out the time wasters and those perceived to be unsuitable , Some still get through ! Most drivers are locked into 3 year contracts (after completion of training) where they have to remain at their original depot and company to ensure that they pay back most of the training costs through actual productive work , trouble is after those 3 years most will up sticks and leave to a more suitable company with better pay and better work .

Under BR and before Sectorisation took hold most depots had a fair slice of varied work (shunting , Freight , Infrastructure , local passenger and express passenger) and drivers had a large amount of route knowledge , Work was varied enough to keep drivers and traincrew happy . Then the government pushed through Sectorisation as a prelude to privatisation and the work was slowly but surely separated up to its respective sector . The varied work especially for the passenger depots started to dry up , Route knowledge began to be cut as a driver out refreshing a route they had not been over for a while was an unproductive driver costing the company money !
Then along came privatisation and its got worse , Those depots with boring repetitive work (local passenger , stop , start type work) have found it extremely hard to keep a hold of drivers after they've done their 3 years work , even more so in areas where other train operating companies with better work are local to them as It's far cheaper to poach a fully trained driver from another company then train them up from scratch !!

Used to be on the railway that you started at the bottom and worked your way up , as you gained more knowledge then you progressed through the system , The money wasn't great but there was plenty of overtime if you wanted it , Most of the staff loved the job and took great pride in the work they did (its what I did : YTS to train guard to Driver) . These days its all about the money , every person and their dog wants to be a driver because of the money and the fact they perceive the job as just simply sitting there and pulling levers in the cab , Far too many on the job now who have never had a love for railways , just interested in the pay cheque !

 

[cascaderailroad]

Maybe nobody really wants to be a real train driver anymore ... confusing antiquated signals, bad shared trackage with oncoming trains coming right at you on the same track ... all the stress of the job

 

[itareus]

Maybe nobody really wants to be a real train driver anymore ... confusing antiquated signals, bad shared trackage with oncoming trains coming right at you on the same track ... all the stress of the job

It's clear, once again, that you have little or no idea what you are talking about.

Dave (Nexusdj) has pretty much summed it up and he knows what it's like in the industry.

Chris M

 

[JCitron]

Could it be as simple as people not realizing that it's more difficult than they think once they get into it?

This is an issue we have here in the US. People think that being a conductor is easy then they go the interviews and never make it past that. If they do make it on to the next level which would be the medical testing, they may fail due to some reason including vision, psychological testing, stress tests, and so on. Once past the physical and psychological testing comes the training classes and on-the-job training where many people fail due to many reasons including tardiness. The railroads do not tolerate tardiness at all, or no shows.

The new hires then realize that the shift work isn't as fun as they thought along with the 10-hour days, being stuck in the middle of nowhere, and the fact they may actually have to do some work.

John

 

[rjhowie]

First my apologies for starting the same thread! Due to some tiredness I had overlooked this one!

Anyway drivers are not paid pennies are they? As a trainee you get between £18,000 and £22,000. When newlly qualified the salary is £30,000. My understanding is that after some experience it rises again to between £35,000 and ££48,000. That is on mainland UK and as you are in Northern Ireland, PFX the nearest information I got was an article based back on 2012 so bound to have increased. I noted the answer included this excerpt - "Prior to September 2012, train drivers salaries ranged from £20,000 for trainee drivers to £39,500, dependent on the type of shift pattern worked by the individual. Under the new contract arrangements, the same salaries will be within the range £20,700 to to £31,600, with the potential for the latter to reach £35,000 providing there is full implementation of all elements of the terms and conditions of employment under the new muliti-year contract arrangements." Considering the smaller and lighter rail traffic system in that part of Britain hardly pauper money?!

 

[pfx]

That is on mainland UK and as you are in Northern Ireland, PFX the nearest information I got was an article based back on 2012 so bound to have increased.

As I said, over there in GB. Not sure what your point is.

 

[klambert]

One possible reason is that most kids are pushed to go to university, they then look at the 'easygoing party life' on student
grants (free money some think), that are presented on the tv.

The ones that do obtain a degree (media studies being one of the most popular), then think they are just too good to be a
lowly train - lorry - bus driver.

The ones who leave school as soon as they can, probably do so because they don't have the capacity to learn, what a driver needs to.
Some (and the numbers increase every year) leave with barely enough capacity to spell their own name & can't add up more
than 2 numbers at a time, even with their socks off.

Sometimes Blackwatch, I wonder if you have any reason or sources to back up what you say or if you're just going on hearsay and complete wibble that's spewed out by the tabloids. I can imagine you harrumphing in front of your copy of the Daily Mail, and blaming us 'lazy' youth for everything.

Being a member of that much despised millennial youth generation, that many of the older generations just write off as feckless or lazy. I can tell you that university is very much a last resort for a lot of us. So many of us go, because the job situation is so dire and wages are so crap that the only way of possibly having a chance of getting a decent job in this country is if you have a degree. I would jump at the chance to leave college, become a 'lowly train driver' and set myself up with a nice modest little 1 bedroom flat to settle down in with my girlfriend and possibly save up enough money to get married and have a mortgage. But house prices are so high, wages are so low and proper jobs so scarce that even a reasonably modest aspiration like that is nearly impossible.

Instead I'm having to consider uni, not for the 'partygoing lifestyle' but, it means I'll have somewhere of my own to live for a couple of years, get the chance to move out of my parents place and the jobless hole of a town a live in (I actually live in Queensferry North Wales, which is outside Chester) and actually have the chance to move somewhere that has reasonable amount of jobs with a chance of doing a uni placed work experience where than I may, possibly get a job. Which no doubt I won't feel the benefit of the wages I'll be earning because of the debt I'll be saddled down with.

Your generation where extremely lucky in that it was relatively easy to find a job after leaving school, due to postwar prosperity. If you did go university they you given grants rather than loans. I'm always envious of my Dads and my Grandparents stories of how they landed good jobs after leaving school and college. But now if you can't get it through nepotism or through sheer stroke inducing unpaid hard work, you may as well consign yourself to the zero hours contract job at Mcdonalds. So please Blackwatch stop coming out with such clichéd nonsense straight from the pages of the right wing tabloids and count yourself lucky that you grew up in a time when the job market was fairer and you grew up in a time when the gap between rich and poor was decreasing rather than increasing like it is now.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
As the opening poster can I apologize for going missing from the thread for a few days, but I still do some work for my company and that sometimes gets in the way of the joys of retirement. That said I find myself in much agreement with what nexsdt stated in his posting at #4 for of this thread even though I have spent my whole life working in or around the british road haulage industry rather than the british rail industry.

I became a heavy goods driver in the road haulage industry in the mid 1960s. At that time most large companies had a variety of work in their depots and the company I was working for was no different. The driver's would rotate between trunking operations, port trailer shunting, general haulage or retail delivery work. The basic rates were not that great at that time but there was always plenty of overtime. Those were the days before mobile phones and complex tachographs in vehicles so when away from the depot on a journey the driver also had the duty of managing the vehicle and dealing with customers. Therefore the vast majority of driver's loved their jobs just as they did in the rail industry it would seem.

Unfortunately these days live tracking on vehicles along with complex tachographs record every detail of engine revs, gear changes, breaking velocity, vehicle roll as well as speed and time keeping. The foregoing means that heavy goods vehicle drivers are now the one of the most monitored employed people in the UK with perhaps the most hated device by drivers being the camera in the cab monitoring every move the driver makes. The foregoing would again seem to be in line with much that has happened in the rail, bus and coach Industries.

Again in line with the rail industry, road transport depots have in the main become single operation franchises. Drivers usually carry out one type of operation such as night trunking to Central warehousing complexes or single area retail delivery both of which can become extremely monotonous when the same is carried out on every working shift. Is it any wonder then that after joining and training in the transport industry many then decide that the job is not for them even if the salaries in both the road and rail Industries are now very good.

As nexsdt stated in his posting, to train someone as a driver in any of the transport Industries costs an enormous amount of money and those that do train up through their companies are normally contracted to stay with that company for at least three years. However, in the road haulage industry in recent times many of those contracts have been ruled unlawful by the industrial courts. On other occasions drivers have simply “bought themselves out” and moved on to other Industries whatever the financial cost of that.

In all the above, it would seem that the outlook is not bright for Britain's rail, bus or road transport Industries unless the employment problems can be solved. analysts are stating that shortages of key employees in the transport sector is now starting to affect the economic growth and performance of the UK economy.

Serious indeed many believe, especially when drivers in the rail industry say to their jobs, Trains, NEXT :hehe:

Bill

 

[pfx]

Having taken redundancy late last year, I considered both HGV and PCV training, planning to put my redundancy money to good use. I went for an alternative instead and paid to do an industry recognised forklift trainer's course so that's where I now find myself. From what people say, it sounds like I made the right choice too.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

Having taken redundancy late last year, I considered both hgv and pcv training, planning to put my redundancy money to good use. I went for an alternative instead and paid to do an industry recognised forklift trainer's course so that's where I now find myself. From what people say, it sounds like I made the right choice too.

In my humble opinion you certainly made the right choice there pfx. I hope you don't mind me saying but my advice would be that now you are in the workplace training sector continue pushing forward to get as many qualifications as you can especially in industrial safety. I do not know what the situation is in your part of the world, but here in the uk personal fully qualified and experienced in industrial safety are extremely difficult to find. In my own case I found that once I had those qualifications a whole new work life world opened up to me, and I have never looked back.

snip~Your generation where extremely lucky in that it was relatively easy to find a job after leaving school, due to postwar prosperity. If you did go university they you given grants rather than loans. I'm always envious of my Dads and my Grandparents stories of how they landed good jobs after leaving school and college.~snip

klambert, with every respect to your above posting, I would agree that in 1960 when I left school at the age of 15 jobs were very easy to find. However, would you have wished to be part of the food rationing and Military National Service that were also part of the“ post-war prosperity” that filled so much of my childhood days .

In regards to your comments on young person's going to university with grants for their education, very few people went on to higher education in the 1950s-1960s be that at university or even Grammar School. You had one chance in education in in that era and that was to pass your 11 plus exam. Fail that and you left school with no qualifications whatsoever with your only chance being to start at the very bottom in any company or organization and work your way up through.

Again with every respect to your posting at #10 of this thread klambert, but there are without doubt good well-paid jobs to be had at the present time if you are prepared to learn, go anywhere and do anything in an occupation. A few months ago I had to attend a sewage works here in the west country to bring in a new safety regime in line with its enlargement and modernisation.

I found the workforce there a tremendous group of people who worked everyday in difficult and often hazardous situations. It was never going to be that we could make that environment anywhere near 100% safe. The employees ( many who had worked there for quite a considerable number of years) accepted the hazards and dangers of their employment with great camaraderie between them all. They also very much looked out for one another in often dangerous and unhealthy circumstances.

The company running the sewage works needed to employ extra people to cover the extended size of the site. They were looking for physically fit persons prepared to work all hours and extended shifts. They were in essence looking for young people due to the strenuous nature of the work who would be employed on very good salaries from the start of employment. Not one young person came forward and those who were sent from the Job centre made it perfectly plain they did not wish to have those jobs but only attended the interview because of the Job Centre's insistence. It would seem that we all use the toilet, but no one wishes to be employed in looking after the residue that we leave.

I apologise to the forum for being of topic, but I felt I should put my own experiences on record in view of Klamberts posting which I respect very much. However I hope it does demonstrate that every generation has its problems to deal with.

Bill

 

[pfx]

In my humble opinion you certainly made the right choice there pfx. I hope you don't mind me saying but my advice would be that now you are in the workplace training sector continue pushing forward to get as many qualifications as you can especially in industrial safety. I do not know what the situation is in your part of the world, but here in the uk personal fully qualified and experienced in industrial safety are extremely difficult to find. In my own case I found that once I had those qualifications a whole new work life world opened up to me, and I have never looked back.

Bill, I d don't mind at all. Well ahead of you though. I'm just in the door but I fully intend to add as many feathers to my bow as I can. I'm doing counter balance now and should add reach soon but my ultimate aim is to get a NEBOSH diploma. Northern Ireland is no different from the rest of the UK and with NEBOSH, I'll be pretty much assured of work. As I said before, I'll stick at the preservation railway to get my train fix.

Innis

 

[rjhowie]

I did indicate PFX the view on salaries as you mention that over in N. Ireland there was a wages difference and I think my view was with respect clear. There is a big difference between the mainland part of GB and over there in relation to what I also said on volume and network. NIR is thus more limited but the top rate is still reasonable due to that comparable and practical difference.

 

[wholbr]

Hi pfx and everybody.

Bill, I d don't mind at all. Well ahead of you though. I'm just in the door but I fully intend to add as many feathers to my bow as I can. I'm doing counter balance now and should add reach soon but my ultimate aim is to get a NEBOSH diploma. Northern Ireland is no different from the rest of the UK and with NEBOSH, I'll be pretty much assured of work. As I said before, I'll stick at the preservation railway to get my train fix.

pfx, you are spot on there in looking to gain a NEBOSH diploma as that is essential in moving up the industrial safety employment ladder. That stated, always remember that NEBOSH are a private company who many believe try to hold an unhealthy Monopoly on qualification in the industry.

However, there are other learning environments and qualifications that can stand as good support in moving forward. The higher NVQ qualifications ( standards 3 and 4) are well recognised throughout the industry and prove that you have shop floor experience alongside the academic qualification that a NEBOSH diploma will give you.

Added to the above there are also the trade union recognised qualifications that many who hold the their higher grades find employers welcoming with open arms. The trade unions have always ran some great courses on industrial safety with tutors from the major universities taking part. I started my safety career on a full-time month long trade union course paid for by my employer in the mid 1980s and great days they were to. I then went on to acquire my NVQs ( or equivalent in them days) and then sat my NEBOSH Diploma as icing on the cake.

I really am glad to hear that you are starting off in the same field of employment as myself pfx, and I hope to hear of your successful progress into the future. With the sense of humour that you possess and the seeming ability to overcome anything, success can be nothing else but guaranteed.

Sorry to be off topic again forum, but I am sure everyone would want to wish pfx every success in his new career.

Bill

 

[klambert]

Hi everybody.


klambert, with every respect to your above posting, I would agree that in 1960 when I left school at the age of 15 jobs were very easy to find. However, would you have wished to be part of the food rationing and Military National Service that were also part of the“ post-war prosperity” that filled so much of my childhood days .

In regards to your comments on young person's going to university with grants for their education, very few people went on to higher education in the 1950s-1960s be that at university or even Grammar School. You had one chance in education in in that era and that was to pass your 11 plus exam. Fail that and you left school with no qualifications whatsoever with your only chance being to start at the very bottom in any company or organization and work your way up through.

Again with every respect to your posting at #10 of this thread klambert, but there are without doubt good well-paid jobs to be had at the present time if you are prepared to learn, go anywhere and do anything in an occupation. A few months ago I had to attend a sewage works here in the west country to bring in a new safety regime in line with its enlargement and modernisation.

I found the workforce there a tremendous group of people who worked everyday in difficult and often hazardous situations. It was never going to be that we could make that environment anywhere near 100% safe. The employees ( many who had worked there for quite a considerable number of years) accepted the hazards and dangers of their employment with great camaraderie between them all. They also very much looked out for one another in often dangerous and unhealthy circumstances.

The company running the sewage works needed to employ extra people to cover the extended size of the site. They were looking for physically fit persons prepared to work all hours and extended shifts. They were in essence looking for young people due to the strenuous nature of the work who would be employed on very good salaries from the start of employment. Not one young person came forward and those who were sent from the Job centre made it perfectly plain they did not wish to have those jobs but only attended the interview because of the Job Centre's insistence. It would seem that we all use the toilet, but no one wishes to be employed in looking after the residue that we leave.

I apologise to the forum for being of topic, but I felt I should put my own experiences on record in view of Klamberts posting which I respect very much. However I hope it does demonstrate that every generation has its problems to deal with.

Bill

I see your point and like you say every generation has it's problems. In regards to your comment about the sewage works, would you have wanted to work in one? I know it's got to be done, but I'm curious to know what the rates of pay were like being offered and the hours. As I would even consider doing that, providing that the pay is reasonable and the conditions are ok. I'm sure it's better than working in a Wetherspoons , as long as you're not on a zero hour contract and allowed a lunch break, a luxury Wetherspoons doesn't always permit.

Where I live yes there are plenty of jobs going, but not decent ones, they tend to be temporary agency contracts or zero hours at Fast food places, where you have to wait by your phone everyday in case you 'may' get called in. What I mean by a decent job is one where you work 5 days a week, allowed a lunch break with reasonable hours. Is that too much to ask for? Had their been this sewage works expansion in my town, those jobs would have been snapped up pretty quick.

My original point though is that I'm rather exasperated with the younger generation being written off as lazy. All we want is a stable and secure form of employment and the chance to save up a bit of money. Something that's very difficult to do under the current job market.

 

[wholbr]

Hi klambert and everybody.

I see your point and like you say every generation has it's problems. In regards to your comment about the sewage works, would you have wanted to work in one? I know it's got to be done, but I'm curious to know what the rates of pay were like being offered and the hours. As I would even consider doing that, providing that the pay is reasonable and the conditions are ok. I'm sure it's better than working in a wetherspoons

, as long as you're not on a zero hour contract and allowed a lunch break, a luxury wetherspoons doesn't always permit.

Where I live yes there is plenty of jobs going, but not decent ones, they tend to be temporary agency contracts or zero hours at Fast food places, where you have to wait by your phone everyday in case you 'may' get called in. What I mean by a decent job is one where you work 5 days a week, allowed a lunch break with reasonable hours. Is that too much to ask for? Had their been this sewage works expansion in my town, those jobs would have been snapped up pretty quick.

My original point though is that I'm rather exasperated with the younger generation being written off as lazy. All we want is a stable and secure form of employment and the chance to save up a bit of money. Something that's very difficult to do under the current job market.

klambert, many thanks for your excellent above posting in response to my own. In regards to your point on the sewage treatment plant asking would I wish to work there, then my answer would be yes I did work there for almost 3 weeks along with others bringing in a new safety regime by working alongside and training the existing workforce on the hazards of the new plant.

The huge treatment works was a miracle of modern technology with many thousands of gallons of raw sewage entering the plant each day, being processed so as the methane gas was extracted and used as fuel for electricity generation into the National Grid. Other solids were drawn off, dried and then sold as fertilizer to West Country farmers. The water that was left at the end of the process they informed me was “suitable for drinking” however I was never tempted to try it.

Despite all the modern technology sewage is a very difficult thing to handle and those giant pumps get blocked, progress channels over saturated and many aspects of the settlement tanks need heavy manual maintenance. That work is hard often very hazardous and requires great health awareness by all involved.

I believe for a 40 hour basic week the starting salary was in the region of £32,000 per year which increases in line with training and the ability to carry out an increasing number of tasks. There is also a supplement for unsocial hours night and late shifts and everyone has to be “ on call” at designated times should extra staff be needed when one of those pumps get blocked or other urgent maintenance is required very often on a weekend.

In regards to lunch breaks it was a case of as and when surplus time came to hand which is pro typical of many workplaces in the UK these days. Shifts start at a set time but finish when the tasks you are carrying out are completed, again pro typical of many workplaces (including our own office) these days. I believe the average salary ( excluding the power generation plant) is well in excess of 40,000 year for those fully trained in all tasks.

Klambert, I do not believe that many people think that today's younger generation are lazy least of all me. However, the above is today's real world of work not just at the sewage treatment works but throughout all industries in general here in Britain. You do not get set meal breaks or even set hours unless you are a parent or carer in which case job sharing is often brought into being. In fast food restaurants etc where only low skills are needed set hours are easy to accommodate. However, if you wish to and acquire skills above others attracting enhanced salaries, those skills will be required as and when necessary and set hours are not possible in those circumstances.

Hope the above helps
Bill

 

[BLACKWATCH]

I'm 62 years old & trying to find a job, it's nigh impossible.
Main point in my case is the minimum wage, I don't mind working for that, my needs are modest, but I'm fighting against employers who
would sooner employ the younger jobseeker of 18-19, because the minimum wage for them is less than the rate for me.

 

[JCitron]

I'm 62 years old & trying to find a job, it's nigh impossible.
Main point in my case is the minimum wage, I don't mind working for that, my needs are modest, but I'm fighting against employers who
would sooner employ the younger jobseeker of 18-19, because the minimum wage for them is less than the rate for me.

Your age is also stacked against you whether there's an anti-age-discrimination, equal opportunity act or not. Employers will find some excuse to not hire you because of your age. I know even at 52 I ran into this issue. The simple reason is as you said, we expect to be paid a lot more than they can swindle the younger folk. A good example of this is my uncle lost his job with IBM a number of years ago. He was a programmer who was paid quite well then they decided to lay him off in favor of hiring 3 young people, which we know were hired for far less than they were paying him. In the end they lost their jobs too since the whole division was off-shored to India.

John