Session vs. Route - Confusing

[sniper297]

Trying it just now, found what's probably the biggest cause of confusion - which layer are you editing. Edit route button does the route layer, doesn't do anything with the session layer as long as you don't select the trains tab. Edit session and you're starting in the session layer by default. So I select the master session, the empty one with the same name as the route, edit session. Reason I'm going in there is to add some directional track markers to stop the idiots from getting into standoffs, if there's a way to choose the wrong track anywhere they'll find it even if you have their path festooned with 63 navigate via markers. So I added a bunch of directional markers to the center track, change it from bidirectional to one way, save, leave it at the default overwrite route and overwrite session. Before running I edited the test session to check, sure enough all them new directional markers are gone. :'( Back into the master session, there they are! Check the layers, I'm in the session layer. Okay, let's try this; merge layers, merge the session layer into the route layer. Save, exit, back to the other session and edit, all directional markers present and accounted for SIR! :wave: Since they're in the route layer now they're in every session.

As for the switches, that's more due to the tracklaying tool trying to "help" than anything else, place two carefully straightened parallel tracks, make a crossover, "here, let me help by bending all the connected tracks into improbable shapes". Straighten all that out and add a second crossover going the other way, "oh let me move the switch lever for you over to this new switch". Now the new switch has two levers and the old one has no levers, I suspect however you edit the route you'll always need to watch out for that bit of lunacy.

 

[pware]

It took me considerably longer to repair the damage caused by work I did in Session. I know which is the easiest and certainly the quickest

Then I can only suspect that something else has gone wrong in your case - but if it works for you.

Peter Ware

 

[celje]

To be honest I cannot understand why the Edit Route option is present - as Sniper297 commented, it is the same as selecting Create New Session which forces you to lose all your industry settings, consists, etc and anything you have placed in a session layer of a previously saved session.Peter Ware

I think that this is not correct.
If you edit route you don't lose any setting of the previously saved session. And you repeat again: ''When you select Edit Route the route layers are unchanged from the original but any session layers you had are deleted and replaced by new blank session layers.''
Nothing is loosing, deleting or replacing. I can say this through my practice.

 

[sniper297]

No, he means the session layer in the route - or the master session, since apparently all sessions have at least one session layer and one route layer. Except the route layer is universal to all sessions, for whatever reason some stuff like track markers can be added to the session layer, other stuff like track goes into the route layer. Or one of the route layers, it's possible to have more than one route layer. To avoid that confusion I always merge the new route layer into the main route layer immediately after merging a route module into the main route, I have enough trouble sorting out what goes where and why without keeping multiple route layers.

Main problem I would see here, what happens if you have a test session with three player trains and 100 loose consists scattered all over the route - edit the route from that session and merge the session layer into the route, wouldn't you end up with the same 3 trains and 100 loose consists in all the sessions? My guess is if we do use the "edit route from session" method, only edit the master session and make sure there are no trains in it that you don't want showing up in all sessions, merge the session layer into the route layer before saving to make sure stuff like track markers goes into the route layer.

 

[schweitzerdude]

Thanks sniper297

I have bookmarked this thread due to even when you understand how it all works, at times TS2010 does not behave predictably when saving. As sniper297 said, sometimes doing a save brings up a different dialog with options grayed out. Sometimes doing a "save as" does not give you both route and session choices. It is at these times I panic that my session will be lost. Usually it saves the existing session with the new route but I have seen cases where a default session is created where the drivers and trains are there but no driver commands, not to mention all your station and industry settings. It is good to know from sniper297 that there is a manual way to reassign a previously saved "good session" to a new route should the worst happen. Also, due to paranoia, at every save, I save a new, sequentially numbered session. That way I have a supply of somewhat good sessions on hand if needed. After they increase beyond 5 or so, I delete the older ones.

Now, for users of TS12, has this "unpredictable saving" problem as described by sniper297 been fixed? I have the latest build of TS2010 I believe (44088) and it is still a problem. I probably won't move to TS12 until I hear that it has been fixed.

 

[sniper297]

That I couldn't tell you. First time trying out TS12 I did the usual routine with a multitrack mainline with signal gantries and multiple bridges, build a "module" section half a mile long, copy and paste along the line, then go back and connect the gaps in the track and retaining walls. TS12 copy and paste gives you the double track bridge spline with one of the tracks missing. Seeing that, I decided to wait for TS12 to be actually finished before I play with the editor anymore.

Other consideration, even if the TS12 surveyor didn't have new bugs and worked just as well as the TS2010 surveyor, why change over unless it actually does work better? Create a route in TS12 and it works in TS12, create a route in TS2010 and periodically save to CDP and import into TS12 for testing, I ensure the route will work for users of both TS2010 and TS12.

 

[schweitzerdude]

To snyper297

If I hear you correctly, TS12 has other issues, which is to be expected in any new version. So I'll sit tight for now with TS2010 despite the saving probems.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[JCitron]

I couldn't agree more - this has been the cause of nothing but problems, that and the confusion people have over editing sessions and editing session layers.

Too many posters in these forums swear blind that the only way to edit a route is through the Edit Route button - they then follow that statement with a long winded work-around on how to deal with the numerous new sessions that "mysteriously" appear.

EDIT: I have just submitted a help desk ticket on this in the hope of seeing Edit Route removed from the next version of Trainz.

Peter Ware

This really is very confusing, and I too have been burned by this way too many times.

I've wondered why the developers didn't put some kind of header in interface so we know which mode we're in. Very simply in the top bar in the frame, could be Route Editor for editing routes, and Session Editor for editing sessions.

This is particularly helpful when we have to step away from what we're doing and come back afterwards because the interface, as it is now, is the same for both route and session editing. If anyone is like me and suffers brain fog and brain farts, it's easy to get confused which mode one is in.

An alternative to this would be, and I think this is more complicated of course, to blank out the route editing tools so that nothing can be done in the route layer, specifically, when the edit Session option is chosen from the menu. This is totally different from the option to edit the Route layer or the Session layer with Surveyor its self.

If this is sounds like a plan, I'll post this over in the suggestion forum.

John

 

[colourlight]

In response to Schweitzerdude It sounds like you were working in "route" not "session". Getting away from the debate as to whether you should work in Surveyor, Route or Session and how you should do it I,ll explain it in a simple way. "Route"is essentially for all the layout infrastucture. as well as the terrain and painting. This includes everything in the buildings tab including (un)loaders but not editing them only placing them on the layout. Everything in the 3 track tabs. In fact everything else EXCEPT the locomotive tab. This gives you the basic route. Now in "session" you can add your locomotives, set up your industries, (un)loaders how you want them, assign your drivers. session rules. As I have warned earlier installing switches erc! in Sessions can cause corruption in a "saved" game. It works fine in driver until you save it. So if you need to say, add a switch, after you have added all your loco's etc! I believe you can do it in sessions but after you enter session you need to do it via the edit route layer. You also talked about the "save" box being greyed out. if you do it as I suggested that shouldn,t be an issue. You can if you wish select the "save as" option rather than "save" then you can save it how you want to. I hope this makes it easier to understand and it does avoid the need for "workarounds" and fuelling the seemingly endless Route V Session debate which after reading a number of conflicting viewpoints tends to leave you scratching your head. By the way if you are modifying a route rather than creating your own route always save it the first time with a different name and session. This gives you the original route (master) and your new modified route that you are working on. What else?. It,s perfectly ok to add a locomotive/ train in "Route" for testing and checking out your handiwork. Whenever I do that I tend to delete all the sessions except one otherwise you end up with a hundred sessions or more, lol. This will hopefully avoid you losing your work, corruption occuring and avoids confusion over what you should do where.

 

[sniper297]

Main thing is to simply be aware of it, check the layers tab to see whether you're routing or sessioning. :hehe: While you're in there, merge the session layer into the route layer if you're editing the route. In any case I still think it's a good idea to keep them separated, if you're editing the route and want to use a train to test clearance, save and exit surveyor, create a new session and add the train, check clearance and exit surveyor, reload from the main session or the edit route button if you feel that strongly about using that, adjust the bridge or whatever. Save, exit, reload the test session and check the clearance again. Lot more work but you're less likely to get a train that keeps appearing in all your sessions and you can't figure out how it got there because you're so senile you can't remember - what were we talking about?

 

[Dermmy]

I had about 1/2 a page typed, but in short I just want to add a word of moral support to Pware. You've nailed it mate and sooner or later they will wake up. Be strong...

Andy

 

[pware]

I think that this is not correct.
If you edit route you don't lose any setting of the previously saved session. And you repeat again: ''When you select Edit Route the route layers are unchanged from the original but any session layers you had are deleted and replaced by new blank session layers.''
Nothing is loosing, deleting or replacing. I can say this through my practice.

Celje, we are going to have to disagree on this. I just tested it again to confirm what I have been saying.

This is what I did.

1. I created a new route and put some track in the route layer and some scenery in the session layer.
2. I changed the name of the session layer to "Scenery"
3. I then saved calling the route "Test" and session "Test 1".
4. I exited surveyor.
5. I selected the new route "Test" and clicked Edit Route

The track was there but the scenery had gone. The layer I had called "Scenery" had also gone and had been replaced by a blank layer called "session-layer".

1. I exited without saving.
2. I then selected the route "Test", clicked Sessions, selected the session "Test 1" and clicked Edit Session.

The original route and scenery appeared on the screen and the session-layer was named "Scenery".

Peter Ware

 

[pware]

I had about 1/2 a page typed, but in short I just want to add a word of moral support to Pware. You've nailed it mate and sooner or later they will wake up. Be strong...

Thank you for that. I will rejoice when Trainz 13 (an auspicious number) comes out without an Edit Route option.

Peter Ware

 

[pware]

Main problem I would see here, what happens if you have a test session with three player trains and 100 loose consists scattered all over the route - edit the route from that session and merge the session layer into the route, wouldn't you end up with the same 3 trains and 100 loose consists in all the sessions?

Its the terminology here that is confusing. When you say "edit the route from that session" I understand it to mean that you have loaded the layout using the Sessions and Edit Session buttons and are editing the route layer or layers that are a part of that session. Other posters here are assuming that you have loaded the layout using the Edit Route button and are editing session layers. Other combinations of misunderstandings are also possible and may be occurring.

To answer your question, I just conducted a test along those lines and the answer is YES. Any session-layer that is merged into a route-layer in a loaded Session will have its assets appearing in EVERY saved Session created from that Route.

Merging any layer into a route-layer will move the assets it contains into every Session of your layout. Since some things such as rules, industry settings, driver selections and perhaps a few others are session based properties, I suspect that they will remain in the session-layer.

While this may be a simple solution to the Routes vs Sessions argument, it does defeat some of the advantages of leaving different assets in different layers.

Peter Ware

 

[boleyd]

Guess I am not alone. Small comfort. I was just bitten by the double red arrow on switches. Even TS10 had that problem. Auran/Nv3 should place a section in the manual describing the "official" method of dealing with the route, session and layer setups. MAYBE, when the recall is lifted from the update to TS2012 there will be an adjustment.

 

[celje]

Celje, we are going to have to disagree on this. I just tested it again to confirm what I have been saying.

This is what I did.

1. I created a new route and put some track in the route layer and some scenery in the session layer.
2. I changed the name of the session layer to "Scenery"
3. I then saved calling the route "Test" and session "Test 1".
4. I exited surveyor.
5. I selected the new route "Test" and clicked Edit Route

The track was there but the scenery had gone. The layer I had called "Scenery" had also gone and had been replaced by a blank layer called "session-layer".

1. I exited without saving.
2. I then selected the route "Test", clicked Sessions, selected the session "Test 1" and clicked Edit Session.

The original route and scenery appeared on the screen and the session-layer was named "Scenery".

Peter Ware

Hello pware

I hope that you are not offended. I was tired last night, it was 2 am here and i went to bed.

Steps 1-5 are correct and behaviour when you open ''Edit Route'' is correct too. It show what you save with ''route layer'' in the route. But when you open session (route>sessions>edit session) all your work is shown. Same will be if you open >''Drive session''. You said ''The layer I had called "Scenery" had also gone and had been replaced by a blank layer called "session-layer". He is not gone and he is not replaced with blank layer, but he is not shown, because you were in ''route''(edit route). That's the whole purpose of the layers.
Maybe is this the good example why we have seperated ''Edit route'' and ''Edit session''.

I hope that this will help.

regards
celje

 

[celje]

I will try to explain some things about this dilemma. It's up to you which option you use, all are useful.

We have two variantes:
A- working in your route and sessions (your kuid)
B- working in others routes (author's original kuid)

A1 option: making changes in your route

A1.1 you can use edit route (>Routes, select your route,>Edit route)
1. Mein menu-Routes >your route
2. >edit route, now you are in Surveyor. For control >on Layer(F6) to see if the route layer is marked.( it is normal already marked but i alwaxs check this). Work in your route now. When you finished
3. >CtrlF2(save) and ''Save menu'' will be opened,
4. mark ''Overwrite existing route'' already exist and
5. mark ''Do not save Session''
6. confirm
7 new menu will be opened ''Overwrite route?''
8. > Yes
9. now menu of the ''Quick Drive'' will be opened
10. > X (to close Quick drive)
11. then in Main menu, > Exit driver
12. now menu ''Do you wish to save before ending the current session?'' will be shown
13. >Don't save
14. and finally in Main menu choose Exit Surveyor
This option is useful if you didn't make any session yet or you don't wish that anything from the session will be mixed with the route.

A1.2 you can use Edit session (>Routes, select your route,>Edit session)
1. mark route layer and make changes on the route and
2. save
This option is quick and make changes in the route and sessions too, but the same content are on route and session

A1.3 someone use merge function
1. Enter via 'Edit Session'
2. Forget about 'layers' all together - work on anything.
3. Merge the session layer into the route layer (or into the the 'main' route layer if you have multiple layers). This will automatically sort route and session info to the right place. You don't ever need to think about 'which layer am I on?'.
4. Save AS. Which will automatically save a new version of the route and an updated version of the session.
This option give you that all contents are shown in route and in the session too. If you later start with new session you must know that all contents from previous sessions are already on the route (e.g. locos)

A2 option making changes in your session

A2.1 you can use Edit session (>Routes, select your route,>Edit session)
Session layer is automatically marked ( you can use the additional session layers too), just made your changes in the session and save
This option give you all changes in the selected session and do not touch the route
It's up to you which option you use, all are useful.

B working in others routes

Only working in the session layer is allowed( see option 2.1)

regards
celje

 

[pware]

Hello pware

I hope that you are not offended.

Celje, I am not offended at all. It has been a robust debate and has shown that there are many different ways of doing the same thing. The method I use ("Edit the Session, not the Route") has worked for me and many others without any problems. But I accept that other users have different experiences and needs.

Cheers.

Peter Ware

 

[boleyd]

It is not a matter of the best technique but it is understanding the pitfalls and their causes. Thus you can choose the process that avoids those issues. I learned a lot from the inputs and now know what to avoid and also to understand what are sometimes confusing choices.

 

[B1boy]

I'm making two routes on the surveyor for TRS 2006.I'd made one of them a test track route to see how everything works,before i do my real route.