Session vs. Route - Confusing

[boleyd]

Despite another thread dealing with this I remain unsure about what I am seeing as save options and why. My particular problem is all the options dealing with Sessions when I am saving a Route. I believe a session and a route are two distinct elements and Auran/Nv3 have mixed them into options that to me are vague.

As an example I am sometimes asked to create a new session when all I want to do is save a route that I have been working with for a few weeks. I usually end up with extra sessions which I do not want. I am afraid, now that I have the route the way I want it, not fully understanding all the interlaced options may cause me to loose, or overwrite, a session that has a significant time investment.

TS2012

 

[stagecoach]

After you open trainz and want to select your route, the first page is the route section. If you open for edit route all changes are made on the route only. If you add any instructions to any asset like stations, ATLS,TM's etc plus any trains placed this will get stored in a session and as this route has no session it asks to save a new session with this information. The old session may have information that no longer applies to the updated route so will get confused looking for places if you then later try and use it with the updated route.

If you enter surveyor by the edit session then both the route and session will load together with all information related to that route. As you add, change or delete things the session will update with the route and when you exit it will overwrite the old session with the new routes information.

Whenever I work in surveyor I always enter via the edit session and not the edit route

 

[pware]

If you start the editing process by selecting Routes, click on a route then select Edit Route then you are actually starting a brand new session as well - any previous session(s) you created will not be loaded. This is what leads to the extra sessions.

The correct way is to select Routes, click on a route then select Sessions, click on a session then select Edit Session. You can edit anything in any of the layers - any changes to a route layer will be made to the route and ALL the sessions that are created from that route. Any changes to a session layers will only be made to THAT particular session.

When you select Save (or Save As ... if you want to make backup copies) the dialogue box will give you the option of saving the session as a new session or overwriting the old (now altered) session. I always leave it as overwrite unless I need to create a duplicate session as the starting point for a new session for that route.

Peter Ware

 

[boleyd]

Ok, I was always entering via Route which seemed the most logical. Since the program, in Session mode, is always able to apply the changes properly to either Session or Route it does make sense. Someday the manual might be updated to include Enter Session suggestions.
Thanks

 

[sniper297]

General Trainz vs Surveyors, Operators, and Engineers - Confusing

Since this involves using Surveyor, what confuses me is why you posted it in here?

" If you start the editing process by selecting Routes, click on a route then select Edit Route then you are actually starting a brand new session as well"

NOW it makes sense. With MSTS the route editor and activity editor were two completely different programs, with Railworks there was no way to even get into the route editor without entering via a session. So why does Trainz even have the "Edit Route" button if that does the exact same thing as "Create new session"?

Dick, I've been hammered with that lousy "Save new route and session" with all the other options grayed out, usually after an hour of tediously aligning yard tracks. Don't wanna lose all that work, don't wanna lose the test session with 14 different AI trains that have 62 navigate via instructions each, so I go ahead and Save As and get the new route, then clone the session and hack the config.txt.

Content mangler, find the new route, copy items to clipboard, paste into notepad text file.

Find session from old route that won't work in new route, clone it.

Edit config.txt and change the name, then find the two references to the map (route) KUID number - one is obvious, says "map-kuid" right on the label. Second one you have to scroll down past all the data for the session to the KUID table (this is what download helper uses to get dependencies), the map KUID is always the first one in the list. Highlight the text and CTRL C on the KUID in the notepad text file, highlight the original KUID in the config.txt and CTRL V to overwrite. Optionally paste into the FIND, REPLACE windows and REPLACE ALL, either way make sure you don't miss or add extra brackets or something. Save, exit, content mangler, commit. Now the cloned session will show up in the new route.

 

[boleyd]

Looks like it is dicey getting all the pieces to match up and not scatter. I wonder how many people begin work with the Route and not the Session.

Oh well, light is dawning at the end of another tunnel as the Grand Wizard of "that other company" is making a "major" announcement this week. I expect the revelations to be a dud in terms of simulation attributes but a block-buster (maybe jaw dropping too) for people who play scored games. In that case I gain enough disk space to put off buying one of those fancy terabyte disks. Instead will get some more speed trees, speed shrubs and speed grass and await a lifting of the TS2012 recall by Nv3/Toyota.:udrool:

 

[sniper297]

I'm so excited about our new technology!

Which will probably add a bunch more clumsy workarounds in an attempt to fix problems caused by all the clumsy workarounds for previous clumsy workarounds. :hehe: And inevitably break a lot of stuff that worked before.

 

[colourlight]

I wrote a post a couple of days ago warning 2010 users to beware of doing anything in sessions apart from setting up industries to load/unload and working on locomotives and rolling stock. In sessions I was modifying a downloaded route, WHOO Megaroute making a few last minute changes while setting up the industries etc! changing some of the MIN for a different type and a little track work. Everything worked fine in Driver, however when I saved the session and continued playing it later it was corrupted. The switch arrows turned to double red " a switch lever is missing" message, the AI couldn,t find the loading track and the wagons wouldn,t load/unload.I do most of my mods in Route without any issues. Every so often I go into driver session to check a section of completed layout then I delete the extra sessions.

 

[celje]

..to beware of doing anything in sessions apart from setting up industries to load/unload and working on locomotives and rolling stock. In sessions I was modifying a downloaded route, WHOO Megaroute making a few last minute changes while setting up the industries etc! changing some of the MIN for a different type and a little track work. Everything worked fine in Driver, however when I saved the session and continued playing it later it was corrupted. The switch arrows turned to double red " a switch lever is missing" message, the AI couldn,t find the loading track and the wagons wouldn,t load/unload.I do most of my mods in Route without any issues. Every so often I go into driver session to check a section of completed layout then I delete the extra sessions.

I think this is a subject we are talking about in the thread TS12 first impressions ,post #4, 6-11, 13-17.


regards

 

[pware]

... So why does Trainz even have the "Edit Route" button if that does the exact same thing as "Create new session"?

I couldn't agree more - this has been the cause of nothing but problems, that and the confusion people have over editing sessions and editing session layers.

Too many posters in these forums swear blind that the only way to edit a route is through the Edit Route button - they then follow that statement with a long winded work-around on how to deal with the numerous new sessions that "mysteriously" appear.

EDIT: I have just submitted a help desk ticket on this in the hope of seeing Edit Route removed from the next version of Trainz.

Peter Ware

 

[pware]

The switch arrows turned to double red " a switch lever is missing" message, the AI couldn,t find the loading track and the wagons wouldn,t load/unload.I do most of my mods in Route without any issues.

These problems are symptoms of using the Edit Route option instead of the Edit Session option. If you select Edit Route instead of the Edit Session (and I'm not talking about editing route layers and editing session layers here - that's another source of confusion) then all your preset session settings will vanish - by selecting Edit Route you are starting a brand new session with no preset settings.

Every so often I go into driver session to check a section of completed layout then I delete the extra sessions.

That statement confirms it. Extra sessions are only created when you

1. select Edit Route and then Save or
2. select Edit Session and Save/Save As and enter a new session name.

Peter Ware

 

[celje]

...to edit a route is through the Edit Route button - they then follow that statement with a long winded work-around on how to deal with the numerous new sessions that "mysteriously" appear.
Peter Ware

Hello pware

Now i'm loosing contact. If you have two sessions, how then make changes on the route and how then save this changes?

 

[sniper297]

My guess is you select the original session that was created when the route was originally created and edit that, the one that has the same name as the route. Theoretically it should be empty of trains and stay empty.

Frankly I doubt all the problems are caused by editing route from the edit route button, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Where this theory collapses in my mind is the fact that the route is uploaded all by itself without the "master" session, in fact the master session itself is rarely ever seen by anyone except the developer of the route.

 

[pware]

If you have two sessions, how then make changes on the route and how then save this changes?

The route consists of anything that is stored in a route layer. The route layers are common to all sessions made from that route. So if you select a Route then click the Sessions button you will see all the sessions based on that route. Select a session (any one will do) and click Edit Session.

You can then edit the Route by making changes to anything in any of the route layers. When you Save, those changes will become part of ALL of the sessions.

If you change something in any of the session layers, then that change will only appear in THAT session - the one you selected. No other sessions will be affected.

It can be confusing. The addition of layers, some named route and some named session, does not help.

Peter Ware

 

[pware]

Frankly I doubt all the problems are caused by editing route from the edit route button,

You are correct. There have been posters who have experienced route - session problems caused by corrupted files. But, barring corrupt files, in my experience, I have never had an issue since I started following the mantra "Edit the Session, not the Route".

 

[colourlight]

In reply to Celje, I read the Posts in TS12 you referred to and yes, it sounds like the same problem I ecountered the other day in 2010. In response to Pware's post how will getting rid of the edit route option help as the serious problems I encountered were a result of things I did in Edit session NOT edit route? Surely the simple solution is to go into "edit route" and do everything except locomotives, rolling stock and configuring interactive industries/ (un) loaders. apart from test trains. It only takes a few minutes to delete unwanted sessions. Then once you have done that you can go into "edit session" and do the rest. Going into "edit session" and adding point switches for example was, in my case a recipe for disaster. When I first got 2010 and tried modifying a route I was totally confused by the difference between a route and a session which caused me all sorts of problems but once I had grasped what I have written above I find it so simple.

 

[pware]

To be honest I cannot understand why the Edit Route option is present - as Sniper297 commented, it is the same as selecting Create New Session which forces you to lose all your industry settings, consists, etc and anything you have placed in a session layer of a previously saved session. This is when people are noticing the problem - they are still using Edit Route after they have created and saved a session with consists, industry settings, driver lists, etc. I will rejoice when/if Edit Route is removed from future releases of Trainz.

If it only takes a few minutes to delete unwanted sessions, why waste those few minutes? Life is too short (especially at my age).

Peter Ware

 

[celje]

......You can then edit the Route by making changes to anything in any of the route layers. When you Save, those changes will become part of ALL of the sessions.
If you change something in any of the session layers, then that change will only appear in THAT session - the one you selected. No other sessions will be affected.Peter Ware

I presume that this steps are correct: select a Route, then click the Sessions button, choose one of sessions, it doesn't matter which one, click Edit Session, inside the session mark(edit) route layer, make changes on the route and then save.

It make sense, if this really work.
Thank you pware

regards
celje

 

[colourlight]

It only takes me a few minutes to delete unwanted sessions. It took me considerably longer to repair the damage caused by work I did in Session. I know which is the easiest and certainly the quickest

 

[pware]

Celje, this is exactly how it worked in Trainz 2006 - Edit the Session not the Route. It has not changed in 2009/2010 and now 12. The only difference is that now we have route layers and session layers that appear in the Route and the Sessions. This is what is causing the confusion.

When you select Edit Route the route layers are unchanged from the original but any session layers you had are deleted and replaced by new blank session layers.

When you select Edit Session the route layers AND the session layers (from the selected session) are preserved.

Peter Ware