Serious Signal and AI Speed Issues

[nicky9499]

Good day guys,

I am facing what appears to be a persistent issue regarding scripted signals, AI response to signals and AI driving speed under normal situations.
There are 3 parts to the problem, all of which culminate in the AI traveling painfully slow in some occasions. Such behavior adds as much as 45 minutes to a 90 minute session when compared to me driving it manually.
It would also be nice to know whether or not such issue is affecting more than just me.



Part 1: Two block red signal.





The above 3 screenshots show the signals at the end of 3 consecutive blocks, let's call them A, B and C.
Train will approach A block. Permissive signal for this block is flashing yellow, which the AI automatically downgrades to "caution" and thus slows to half the track speed.
If one were to pause the simulation at this point and proceed on foot, he will find B block signal to be yellow and C block signal to be red.

Such circumstances would be considered normal if D block beyond the red signal was occupied or otherwise obstructed. However, observed that the signal protecting D block is red because of "no train approaching". This presents a catch-22 situation whereby the 3rd signal is red because it does not detect a train, causing the preceding signals to show caution or advanced caution, which in turn causes my trains to travel at half speed. Keep in mind, in this case this stretch of track is completely clear of other trains in both directions and logically, all signals should be nothing short of "clear".

If I were to reverse said train into A-1 block, logically one would expect the signal protecting A block to be "clear". However this signal is "caution" and instead signal protecting C block is red, "no train approaching".
The signals in question are JR SafeTran series. TS12 build 49922 with all possible content updates. Stock install + route + session + JR rolling stock. That's it. This issue does not occur throughout the entire route, observably around extremely densely-built areas. However there are instances where a signal is advanced caution for no apparent reason, and the next one is business as usual.



Part 2: The Quarter-Speed Quandary

There are at least 2 parts of the route where the AI inexplicably slow to 11mph in a 45mph speed limit again for no apparent reason. One is in sparsely built area again on clear track and no influence from other trains, another is in heavily built area crossing an AJS invisible station platform. In both cases signals preceding these 11mph "black spots" are green.



Part 3: Freaked Out By Signals

On encountering a signal in clear state, the AI may sometimes, but not always, freak out and start slowing down before realizing he'd being an idiot and try to regain track speed. This is quite noticeable in some cases, with the AI dropping to 30~40 in a 50 zone. Annoying, to say the least.


I would most appreciate if some kind soul could shed some light on these issues. There are a bunch of bug reports that pop up although I've not paid attention to any of them because I've no idea what they're saying. If these are required just holla and I'll happily post them up for scrutiny. If there's anything else you need me to provide just ask. I wonder if there's a line somewhere in the AI code that says "waitfor=random&do=piss_user_off" or something, perhaps someone from N3V can verify this?

Thanks in advance.

Nicholas

 

[justinroth]

Nicholas, does the signal in the 3rd picture, what you stated as C change when approached? What is its state in surveyor with a train approaching? I found an odd bug using JR's safetran signal bridge, the splines will sometimes throw the signal off....a very weird quirk that I have fixed by placing a loco in front in surveyor and moving.the signal head around...you'll find it jerks slightly around as if it is jumping to a nonexistent track.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

the signals determine if anything is approaching them by searching the distance of 3 previous signals or 10 miles, whichever comes first. your problem may be as described in the post above if the signal cannot 'see' the train coming. if not, then it is too far away - and a 10 mile signal block is uncommonly long.

 

[carr]

Having read your problem, it appears it could be one of two things, Are your track markers placed closely in front of the signals, if the are, move them someway to after the signal. Have you another train running somewhere ahead as this could cause the problem as it may not have cleared the track marker in front of the second train. To cure the problem you may have to put in additional signals or track markers.

 

[mtldrm38]

on the first pic are the switches defaulted to the main? and the signal is a proper deverge and settings set for main line at junctions example R,L, and that mow on the spur is it set up to be drivable as a engine?
Those would be common problems I can see and is the siding have a signal to prevent it from comin out on the main?

 

[JohnnyC1]

One way to keep your AI's moving along I have used with success is to use the Junction Controller v3 <kuid:439337:100957>, which will allow a smooth transition from one track to another by aligning booth turnouts in unison. Then use Junction Normal,<kuid2:44272:90012:2>, to re-set the turnouts to as they were set at the beginning of the session. A word of caution using Junction Normal, if you choose the default, all turnout to normal, when preforming switching in yards or industry siding, all turnout will return to the before setting, and they will not be aligned as you think they are. Also, if you have reset the radius of your turnouts, they will default to the built-in 20m.

John

 

[nicky9499]

Hi guys,

I have figured out the problem. As was observed, in appeared as though at some locations the signals were looking forward 2 blocks ahead instead of 3, resulting in signals displaying caution aspect. These locations, I just realized, also happen to be where signals have been mounted on the SafeTran gantries. The gantries are not an issue per se, because I do not connect real track to the gantries' invisible track. However, I do have JR Signal Offsets 80ft in front of each gantry signal as I find the AI stop so close under these signals that is is actually impossible to see the aspect unless you get off the train and look up.

Logically, what the signal offset should be doing is just that, bringing forward the signal's "threshold" so that the AI stops further away. What is is actually doing is acting as an invisible signal. I don't want that. After the AI train crosses the signal offset, the A block signal actually shows "clear" for a split second. So the signals at C block are actually looking 3 blocks ahead, just that these offsets counts as one block and there is not enough time between the point where the AI train crosses the signal offset and the actual signal itself to register the "clear" aspect.

So the question now becomes; what can I do to make the Signal Offset behave as intended?


Also, the Quarter Speed Quandary still remains a headache.

 

[justinroth]

I tried working with the offsets, they would look past signals and cause A.I. to see a danger state when the signal they were pointed to was green. On mouseover the offset will state some info (such as distance to signal) which I found to be incorrect, extremely. I posted in the JR forums months ago and got no reply so I just deleted them.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

what can I do to make the Signal Offset behave as intended?

you can't. it is behaving exactly how I intended. you are misusing them and that is why you get the problem you have described.

I tried working with the offsets, they would look past signals and cause A.I. to see a danger state when the signal they were pointed to was green. On mouseover the offset will state some info (such as distance to signal) which I found to be incorrect, extremely. I posted in the JR forums months ago and got no reply so I just deleted them.

i have not noticed such a case. the offsets work as they should and the distance is perfectly measured on the track graph. if you could give more info or point me at your thread i could answer in more detail.

 

[nicky9499]

Hi Justin,

Thank you for your reply. In this case, is there any way to make the AI not stop so close to signals (as per the real world)? If I needed another signal in front of my signal I'd use an invisible signal. The word "offset" gives the user an impression of well, an offset, shifting the signal aspect forward.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

 

[justinroth]

i have not noticed such a case. the offsets work as they should and the distance is perfectly measured on the track graph. if you could give more info or point me at your thread i could answer in more detail.

The offset seems to look for the closest signal set to danger. In the screenshot below the distance stated is a few blocks ahead, if this was the intended purpose the description on the JR website is a bit vague I guess, though I do not see a practical application for it. Myself, like Nicholas was attempting to use it to get A.I. to stop at a realistic and prototypical distance from any signal set to danger.
(2010 build 49933)

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[nicky9499]

Yes, the offset should stop any train when its corresponding signal is red. However in all other situations AI trains should be allowed to pass as per normal. So if the associated signal is clear, the offset should also be clear, not caution. Does anyone know of any other such "offset" assets that can do this?

 

[norfolksouthern37]

The offset seems to look for the closest signal set to danger. In the screenshot below the distance stated is a few blocks ahead, if this was the intended purpose the description on the JR website is a bit vague I guess, though I do not see a practical application for it. Myself, like Nicholas was attempting to use it to get A.I. to stop at a realistic and prototypical distance from any signal set to danger.
(2010 build 49933)[/IMG]

it dos not look for the closest signal set to danger, it simply uses as a reference the closest signal it can 'see' from the pointed end of the object. the screenshot you posted does not indicate the normal behavior of this object. i made it for two things - yard control and a specific situation where one signal is to be used to control a siding.

Yes, the offset should stop any train when its corresponding signal is red. However in all other situations AI trains should be allowed to pass as per normal. So if the associated signal is clear, the offset should also be clear, not caution. Does anyone know of any other such "offset" assets that can do this?

it is. there is no signal logic in it other than to copy the state of the signal it can 'see' beyond the arrow. if no signal is 'seen' it reports a danger. the problem you are experiencing is because it is being used on the mainline where the signal previous to the offset is farther away. trainz can only clear so many blocks ahead, and as you found out, the offset to it's parent signal counts as a block.

 

[justinroth]

I ser now...I guess one would need midwest grain to see how to implement the offsets. Nick, I think we're stuck with A.I. riding the signal too close.

 

[nicky9499]

Ah okay, I give up on the offsets then, will delete them later. Nice diagram you have there, Justin. I assume it's a bit more than just and immaculate MS Paint job?

Still, strange nobody has chimed in on the 11mph part. Am I really the only dude with such lazy AI?

 

[justinroth]

Nick, I would say after removing the offsets, make sure your junctions are set for the mainline...should help with the slowing down.

 

[nicky9499]

The junctions have always been set for the mainline, it's the first thing I do right after placing them. I've removed all the offsets but the 11mph issue still stands.

 

[shaneturner12]

11mph? That sounds familiar to me.

Check if the train is still trying to execute a Load command even after it's left the station.

Shane

 

[mtldrm38]

thnx NS37 makes sense now why all the 08 s where acting funny (dls vers) the 06 s and approaches were stating signal ahead is in a unknown state or would get just a black line...
Since im doin a route in 2010 the newer ones on JR are for 2012 so I just removed the 08 s and now using 06 s and perfect running now all clear ahead!

 

[nicky9499]

Hi Shane, have you encountered a similar situation before? If so, how did you resolve it? In my case, the train in question has no command anywhere in the vicinity of this AJS Invisible Platform and is supposed to go right through at full speed. The preceding signals are all green (aspect 8).

Mtldrm38, the 08 signals are meant for interlockings. I'm still unsure what sort of situation would warrant their usage, but I do know each one needs to be configured in the Properties box for a "straight-through" for it to work properly.

Cheerio,
Nicholas